A question for the Femmes

[Queerasfck]

Yeah Drew, who cares about one rejection? I had to stop counting mine when I was single. Fuck that. Move on and go find what you really want.

[SuddenlyWestFemme]

Originally Posted by Passionaria

Hey Drew,
What comes to my mind reading your post is do "you" feel ready? In your heart are you feeling strong enough to surf the waves of dating? Weather it goes well or leads to more, can you feel OK inside yourself at this time with what ever happens?

I think this is great advice. And something to reevaluate after a date or two as well. I have been single for over a year and during that time I stepped into the dating pool twice thinking I was ready. Low and behold after a couple of dates, I realized I was so NOT ready. But I wouldn't have known that I wasn't ready if I hadn't stepped into dating. So go for it and then evaluate how you are feeling around the whole thing.

And please don't worry too much about how Femmes will perceive you or what we will want from you - we all want different things. Some want financial security in a partner others want someone who can make them laugh regardless of income. Some are drawn to those who have emotionally hard times and some want to date those who have been through their ups and downs but are at a pretty even place. There is just no way to tell until you start dating. There was a time when financial security in a partner was important to me. I didn't have faith that I could be the primary breadwinner and I didn't want to raise my kids poor since that is how I grew up. But now I am the main breadwinner for me and my kids so that is less important. I know that I can do it on my own and I can't travel much anyway as I have kids in school so it is just less important. I am the same person, but my desires have changed. Make sense?

Go out and have fun if you are ready and can handle the rejection that inevitable comes along with dating (that is truly the hardest thing not to take personally, but it is rarely personal!). And remember that a few rejections doesn't mean that is all there is out there (another hard thing to do!).

Kind regards,
SuddenlyWest

[CherylNYC]

I have to chime in because I detect a whiff of sexism here. Would a femme woman ask whether she should simply not date at all because she's living on disability and can't afford to take her dates out or buy nice things for them? I think not. I wish there wasn't a presumption that the male/masculine partner is supposed to foot the dating bill. I honestly thought we laid that to rest in the 1970s! Silly me.

I work and make enough money to support myself. If I met someone I liked I wouldn't be particularly concerned if their income was far smaller than mine, as long as they were living within their means and they were not a deadbeat who simply refused to work. Yes, disability income is usually quite low, but many people live on SSI. I wouldn't rule them out of my dating pool because the pool is already very, VERY small! And as Dapper pointed out, SSI is a steady, reliable income.

As for PTSD, many of us live with this disorder. I would rule out an active drug addict or alcoholic. I would rule out an abusive person, or a mean one. PTSD wouldn't keep me away as long as it's managed. That said, one of my criteria for dating is that my potential dates should be less crazy than me. My late gf didn't exactly fit that criteria, so I obviously didn't take my rule very seriously. The way Caren was able to live honourably with the affects of her traumatic history made me respect her more every day. Her grace and forgiving nature were gifts that continue to inspire me.

Of course most of us who are dating have some idealised perfect person that we fantasize about. Well, that person just doesn't exist. We all have quirky/disfunctional/difficult traits. We all have outright character flaws. We all have histories that make us who we are. Just keep looking and you'll find women who will be happy to know you exactly as you are.

[uniquetobeme]

Making friends is a good way to ease back into dating and you may meet some neat people. It takes a lot of the pressure off. Believe in yourself and take things a day at a time. I believe everything happens for a reason and you'll meet that someone special when the time is right. In my experience, the best loves of my life have come out of the blue in the most unexpected ways. I think, sometimes, life gives us what we need when we need it.
Don't give up, somewhere there is a lovely lady waiting for someone just like you, and you won't find her if you give up.

[starryeyes]

There is someone out there for everyone. She just wasn't your "one". You said you just started putting yourself out there, be patient. It takes time, and just cause you strike out the first time doesn't mean you are doomed forever.

As far as the monetary situation goes, money is important to some and not to others. It bothered her, so she isn't for you. Financial stability is very important to some, not so much for others. I don't think anyone should knock her for that.

When I am dating, I look for partners who are in similar financial situations as me, who have stability and who can support the lifestyle we want to live together. There is nothing wrong with that. It would be hard for me to date someone unemployed, as I am an extremely hard worker and look to date butches who have the same ethic. It is just what I want :-)

Smiles and good luck to you... hugs. You will find your one, I promise!

[Scuba]

Originally Posted by uniquetobeme

Making friends is a good way to ease back into dating and you may meet some neat people.

I totally agree with you Uniquetobeme. Sometimes I think we as humans, regardless of gender or sexual preference, forget what it means to actually get to know someone. Dating is great and a lot of fun but whatever happened to getting to know someone BEFORE you ask them out on a date.

My philosophy on all of this is simple. Initial physical attraction can be a really strong force in motivating us to ask a person out on a date (it makes us do crazy, silly things as well). However, it clouds our judgment. If things don't work out for this reason or that we are disappointed. Get to know someone as a friend first. Remove those dating expectations from the equation e.g who pays for what and how much and are you crazy or sane. You'll find out all of this information in a friendship as well AND forgo the dating disappointment. Ask for a date only AFTER you have seen them at their worst and their best.

Bottom line for me...If you a are unable to see me first as a human being and a potential friend then dating is out of the question. AND this has NOTHING to do with how much money you make or what issues you think plague you. It has EVERYTHING to do with integrity, honesty and love.

Keep putting yourself out there. Create those strong friendships and see where things lead from there. When you are strong and confident in your own life, money be damned and issues be damned, than that special someone will see this in you.

Call me old fashion and crazy...Scoobs

PS...Don't see a "no" as rejection. This means you are personalizing someone else's decisions in life. A "no" has nothing to do with you and everything to do with the person who says no.

[kannon]

Drew, I wanted to discuss a couple of points with you. First, PTSD is a treatable disorder. I'm not sure about your unique circumstances but many people do overcome the debilitating effects of PTSD.

Certainly, there is an appeal about someone who makes a decent living. Nothing wrong with a woman who values security. However, I don't think most femmes focus on a butch's or masculine ID'd income. I've found that what women want, or is drawn to in a partner, really depends on what they value. It's different for each woman. For some, it may be monetary, or it could be, chemistry, personality, intelligence, physical characteristics, etc or any combination.

Finally, if you decide to date, make sure it's your decision to do so and not the result of prodding from someone else.

No one likes to be rejected but it happens. Try not to take it personally.

Good luck.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Like I said, I operated under that assumption for years, that dating a Femme properly takes money. I have had so many people tell me differently, that I was beginning to change my mind and think that maybe I could date someone and find a partner even though I don't have much money. When I got shot down, partially for that very reason, it messed with my head.

Oh, and the reason I am asking Femmes is because they are my dating pool, not butches and transguys.

Last year, I "dated" a girl who showered me with things. Flowers, dinners, movies and even surprised me with a cruise. She was generous but everything came with a price tag in the form of "well, I bought you such & such." The breaking point happened when she OPENLY expressed her anger b/c a guy friend of mine was messing with me. Her jealousy cost her what we had and if it had not, the guilt trips about her spending would have.

I am now committed to a college student who works part time while going to school. The time we share is restricted to what we can afford; sometimes he will pay & sometimes I will. If we do not have money to spend, we stay home and we do so happily. Thank God he likes my cooking-lol.

I am an ultra femme in every sense of the term. But, to win me over, you may as well set aside the credit cards. Treat me like a lady-carry my things to the car so I do not have to; make sure the trash is taken out; help me with my coat and shoes. The best things anyone can do for me are pampering me-foot massages, brushing my hair, touching me sweetly "just because."

Clean house for me-I would love that. Watch the kids so I can crash early if I have a headache. Make my life easier and you have done more for me than any expensive trinket can.

[christie]

Drew -

I think other posts preceeding mine offer some really sound advice and perspectives...

IMO, money, or lack of, is just not an acceptable reason to think you are unworthy. Like many others, I don't expect to have everything provided for me - quite the opposite, actually. I am rather insistent that I pay my own way, and when I am so inclined, I will pay for dinner, tickets, drinks, trips... whatever it is.

I've never had the expectation that the butch pays. WTF is that? Its lovely to be "treated" once in a while, but as Laney mentioned, it really is the little things and EFFORT that mean so much more than what can be purchased.

For the PTSD? I don't believe this makes you "un-dateable" - its actually refreshing to hear of one disclosing such a vulnerability. I'd much rather have one be aware of their issues and be honest about such than to find out much later. The way I see it, you are ahead of the curve!!

Hang in there. Scoobs is correct in taking away the dating expectations and getting to know someone as friends first. Sage advice!

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Hi ladies,

I need some advice. I hope this is ok to ask.

I have recently been contemplating dating again. My therapist and some friends and family have all encouraged me to do so. For a long while I was unwilling to even think about it because I have a panic disorder and PTSD for which I am on disability and frankly what I get from my SSI checks every month is paltry. I haven't felt that I am emotionally stable enough to date because of my panic attacks, and not good date/relationship material because I can't work and am basically poor.

That said, I do have a lot going for me in other ways. I am a very kind, compassionate guy. I am have a big heart. I am well mannered, charming, sweet, and I love to goof around. I love to read and learn new things every day. I work on my issues and deal with them honestly. Even though I don't have a lot of money for expensive dates, I do lavish my dates with attention and care. Many people in my life tell me to go out and date again.

That all being said, I recently took a big risk and asked a Femme friend of mine for a date. She rejected me, and the reasons basically have to do with my lack of emotional stability and the fact that I am not financially secure and stable. Man, does that take the wind out of my sails!

So my question is this: Should I even try? Is my PTSD and panic disorder, and my being on disability something that makes me a potentially bad date/partner? Some help and advice would be nice before I decide to really put myself out there again.


Thanks ladies!


Drew

Congratulations on taking that first step, Drew!

I have to concur with those who suggest making sure that YOU are ready to move back into the world of dating. It's a crazy world and one that seems to be like a game of double dutch, that seems to fly by and where you have to try to find the perfect moment to slip in.

I also have to piggyback onto what Scoobs said that her 'no' had absolutely nothing to do with you. For whatever reason, whether it's what she told you or not, she didn't feel fully comfortable but that's a reflection of her and not you.

No biggie.

As many have said, we all have our issues. The thing we need to concentrate on is not how others are managing their issues, but how we manage our own.

Personally, I'd be open to meeting a partner that had bushfuls of money. Why? Because I like it and because money does equal security for me, but that goes back to my childhood and being hungry and homeless with my mom. Again, MY stuff. Not yours or anyone else's. Does that mean that I only look for the thickness of a guy's wallet? No. Because a guy who makes a million a year can live beyond his means just like a guy making minimum wage. It's how you manage it that counts.

My mom was paranoid schizophrenic and a former partner of mine had a variety of mental conditions, including PTSD. More than once, I awoke to her choking me, thinking I was an enemy. Again, MY stuff. Does that mean that I would never date anyone with an acknowledged condition? Nope. Now, if I recognized behaviors and symptoms in someone and they denied it or refused to accept it or to receive medical confirmation, that would wave a whole parade of red flags for me and make the answer a very easy 'thank you but no thank you'. Does it mean that I might give it a good, long thought if I went on a couple of dates with someone and I really started to like them (back to the acknowledged conditions)? Yes. I would have to measure that 'like' that I felt against my past experiences and my own personal fears. If that case came about, I have no idea what I would do. It's one of those 'have to be there' kind of things, I think.

We all have our stuff and our fears and that is what will keep others from proceeding with you. Their fears. Fear tends to keep us safe but it can make you miss out on a lot of awesome experiences and wonderful people too.

If you are up for it, I say keep sticking your toe in the water. You're a great guy! Eventually, I think you'll get a nibble.

[SuddenlyWestFemme]

Originally Posted by Gemme

My mom was paranoid schizophrenic and a former partner of mine had a variety of mental conditions, including PTSD. More than once, I awoke to her choking me, thinking I was an enemy. Again, MY stuff.

I don't mean to change the subject as I completely agree with what you said Gemme in so many ways. But I'd love if you'd explain what you meant by your waking up being choked because your partner thought you were the enemy as being 'your stuff.' I'm sure I'm misunderstanding. It sounds a bit like you are saying that it is your stuff that you were being abused (even if it was not intentional abuse and came from PTSD, being choked is being abused and it doesn't seem like it could be 'your stuff' even if it wasn't your partners fault. Can you clarify?

Of course, you may have meant it gave you some stuff after the relationship was over. Or because of your mom, you had issues and couldn't stay? I'm not sure and I'd love to hear more if it doesn't end up changing the topic.

And back on topic - getting to know someone is the best way to find out if their issues (as has been mentioned - we all have issues - lol) mesh with your issues. So don't worry about the having 'issues' part. And being friends first is really sound advice. It gives you time to see how you interact without all the baggage and insecurity that sometimes surrounds dating. And rejection by a friend just seems so much more pleasant (although still a bummer). But friends first is no guarantee either. I do admit that some of my friends would be lousy matches for me and yet are great friends.

[SweetJane]

Friends first as Scubadyke and others have echoed is great. But even that will take commitment on both of your parts to make contact, be honest in your communications, and do all those things to make a friendship work. Building trust and feeling safe in a friendship are just as important in a relationship---maybe more so because your friends remain with you longer than your lovers.

[atomiczombie]

The person who I asked if I could date her, she is someone I have been friends with for over 5 years.

[Soft*Silver]

I have a severe case of PTSD, have had panic attacks, relapsed a few years ago after 20 year of sobriety, and have multiple medical problems and health care needs. I was so poor I lived on $115 a month from welfare for over 2 years before I finally got on SSDI. Even now, I am dependent on family and a very very small handful of friends who help me get by. Had it not been for them, I would literally be living under a bridge in a cardboard box. I had a series of relationships that rocked whatever stability I did have and then an accident that took me all the way down. Not exactly datable material and I knew it. The fact that I knew it meant I was getting WAY better. The self preservation I was establishing so that I wouldnt put myself in harms way was significant. I am capable of love but just wont do it because one mistake by the other person could set off my PTSD and god help them....it wont be good. I have extracted myself from potential relationships because I DO love the people. Its how I love them. To not hurt them. And at this stage of my life, thats all that could come of this...

in saying this, I am saying that all the advice about knowing yourself and where you are in your healing and life journey is the key. If you are ready, you are ready. But I caution you to also know what you want too. Do you want to date or are you looking for a relationship? Because I think too many people set out wanting to do the latter and say they want the former. Thats bad news because its based in denial. You might be ready to date but not ready for a relationship. think some on it.

as for money, (and I shook my head over this as I read your words), I have dated the uppercrust and the indigent. I got treated like shit by the one with the most money and some of my relationships were with people who got food stamps. Which i do, by the way. I refuse to carry shame around about my financial stability. I am so broken I cant work, both mentally and physically. If you think not giving me food stamps to survive will pad your pockets more, good for you. Hope this never happens to you...

[atomiczombie]

Thank you everyone for your input and encouragement. It has given me a lot to think about. Having had some time to reflect on this latest rejection has made me realize something. The right woman for me will be interested in dating me because of who I am and not what I am. The girl I asked to date, she makes a good bit of money. But I would have still asked her out if she was homeless and living in her car. It's because of who she is that I love her, not her money, or house or car or her 401k. That's the difference, I guess.

I am making a lot of progress with my PTSD and panic disorder. My panic attacks are not something that result in me hurting or lashing out at anyone else. It's more like I curl up into a ball and shake and cry uncontrollably. The things that trigger it are loud noises, large crowds and the smell of smoke, although occasionally I get an attack and have no idea what it was that set me off. But this is something that is getting better. My agoraphobia is getting a lot better. I am getting out of the house more to see friends, with whom I feel safe. My depression has lifted and I am feeling optimistic about my future. I have occasional set backs, but the general trend has been encouraging.

I am ready to date I believe. As for a relationship, I am someone who takes a long time to decide if I want to take that step with someone. I will date a girl for months and months, even a year before I will consider a commitment. I believe it takes time to get to know someone and you have to spend time with them in various contexts before you can know for sure they are the right one. So I am in no hurry to commit. I would like to be further along in my healing process so that I will have more to bring to the table in a relationship anyway.

So there's my thoughts. Thanks everyone, again for your support and feedback!

[Vlasta]

I just finished read your thread . You received a lot of good advice, sincere one and very encouraging . Please , don't give up !!!!!!
Only thing I can add , I am very independent femme and thanks to my career regardless to my written English , I can't care less about the money someone has . I dated people that had no jobs , I support partners in need for whatever reason .
It's so sad to me that in 21 St century it's still such a stigma about a mental disorders by some people . I honestly would like to meet person that has no problems whatsoever . I have been in the medical field for decades and I honestly understand what are you saying . It's hard to start , but don't let discourage you by one femme expectations . There it's someone for you and will be happy for your affection and a good heart .

As I said do not give up , you are ready to date and I wish I could say the same . My last relationship was with someone I knew for over five years and I was thinking we were compatible and it was not a person that many assume from this website , No , it was not that one , but someone I knew for a long time .

If your agoraphobia it's better go out , meet people without expectations . There is a difference from what I need and from I want . Some of us are happy that is this economy we have what we need , I know I am .

I am wishing you the best and find a femme that will appreciated you .

sending you cyber hugs and good luck

Vlasta

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by SuddenlyWestFemme

I don't mean to change the subject as I completely agree with what you said Gemme in so many ways. But I'd love if you'd explain what you meant by your waking up being choked because your partner thought you were the enemy as being 'your stuff.' I'm sure I'm misunderstanding. It sounds a bit like you are saying that it is your stuff that you were being abused (even if it was not intentional abuse and came from PTSD, being choked is being abused and it doesn't seem like it could be 'your stuff' even if it wasn't your partners fault. Can you clarify?

Of course, you may have meant it gave you some stuff after the relationship was over. Or because of your mom, you had issues and couldn't stay? I'm not sure and I'd love to hear more if it doesn't end up changing the topic.

And back on topic - getting to know someone is the best way to find out if their issues (as has been mentioned - we all have issues - lol) mesh with your issues. So don't worry about the having 'issues' part. And being friends first is really sound advice. It gives you time to see how you interact without all the baggage and insecurity that sometimes surrounds dating. And rejection by a friend just seems so much more pleasant (although still a bummer). But friends first is no guarantee either. I do admit that some of my friends would be lousy matches for me and yet are great friends.

I'll expound more in a pm, but for the vein of the thread, my learned responses and prejudices from my experiences are MY issue to deal with and should not color how I interact with another person who may have that particular condition or experience. That's where I was going with that.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

The person who I asked if I could date her, she is someone I have been friends with for over 5 years.

Sometimes friends are meant to be just that.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Thank you everyone for your input and encouragement. It has given me a lot to think about. Having had some time to reflect on this latest rejection has made me realize something. The right woman for me will be interested in dating me because of who I am and not what I am. The girl I asked to date, she makes a good bit of money. But I would have still asked her out if she was homeless and living in her car. It's because of who she is that I love her, not her money, or house or car or her 401k. That's the difference, I guess.

I am making a lot of progress with my PTSD and panic disorder. My panic attacks are not something that result in me hurting or lashing out at anyone else. It's more like I curl up into a ball and shake and cry uncontrollably. The things that trigger it are loud noises, large crowds and the smell of smoke, although occasionally I get an attack and have no idea what it was that set me off. But this is something that is getting better. My agoraphobia is getting a lot better. I am getting out of the house more to see friends, with whom I feel safe. My depression has lifted and I am feeling optimistic about my future. I have occasional set backs, but the general trend has been encouraging.

I am ready to date I believe. As for a relationship, I am someone who takes a long time to decide if I want to take that step with someone. I will date a girl for months and months, even a year before I will consider a commitment. I believe it takes time to get to know someone and you have to spend time with them in various contexts before you can know for sure they are the right one. So I am in no hurry to commit. I would like to be further along in my healing process so that I will have more to bring to the table in a relationship anyway.

So there's my thoughts. Thanks everyone, again for your support and feedback!

Excellent to hear, Drew! Good luck, my friend.

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Like I said, I operated under that assumption for years, that dating a Femme properly takes money. I have had so many people tell me differently, that I was beginning to change my mind and think that maybe I could date someone and find a partner even though I don't have much money. When I got shot down, partially for that very reason, it messed with my head.

Oh, and the reason I am asking Femmes is because they are my dating pool, not butches and transguys.

Then I must not be a femme. Love, respect, honesty and a sex drive are my top needs. And proximity. If someone needs to be pampered and taken care of, then her being honest about her needs is good.
As for the other thing, I'm a nurse and would not know what to do if my lover had a panic attack. Mostly because it's an individual thing. I do know that I can learn and work with a friend/lover who was prone to panic attacks. If that's a deal breaker for her, then again, good thing she is being honest.
Personally, I have given up on looking for love. I'm poor, have 3 kids, am missing teeth and most importantly...I am too much for all my ex'es. Yes, their pivotal relationships are with me. Yes, I break up with them (except my first gf and bf) because they regress. Yes, there was love but it turned bitter and I can't tolerate them anymore. I love deep and hard. Maybe it's better that I not love randomly.
You feel like you want more and maybe you're ready for love or companionship. If this is the case, wait for a serious love who can be with you without $$$ and understands how to relate with you and what you need from her when you're panicking. Wait for what you need in your life.

[mariamma]

Not to be too preachy but...I do energy work. Meaning, I work hormones, neurotransmitters and other trace protein structures that cause us to feel what we feel. Anxiety is from too much ACTH, epi/norepi, etc. and not enough oxytocin, etc. Vasopressin has helped some people with PTSD. Here's a link to a NPR segment.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012...-by-ptsd?sc=tw
Be well

[Viola]

I agree with you here, I think that's so sad if someone is only for butches who has money. I mean that's cold.

I hope I'm doing this right in how to respond I click on the quote thing...

I saw some where on this butch femme planet something to do with - friendship first and then into a relationship and that really is awesome cause this idea of -- (trying to find words here) -- maybe its performance that I dont' like... For that's not real but exchange.

Like example money, um, then maybe that femme was only thinking of herself and to be _________... I don't know word...

wait maybe the word is prostitute, I don't know, but its more of an exchange then a relationship,

if a person is only for a butch with money is that then like an exchange of propperty...

I guess you were saying about needs, um, isn't needs like apart of a relationship, instead of like how I read about that femme only wanted money, yes money is a need but something doesn't set me right here, when that femme only wants a rich butch...

I don't know... am I making anysense kind of?

I mean yes I have needs, like ok I'm extremely a spiritual person and I need time in spirituality and it would be awesome to spend spirituality with a butch, yes., ok, but that sounds in a relationship right?

vs what I heard of that femme wanting a rich butch; how is that a relationship, or am I missing something, I don't know...

it just doesn't sound like a relationship but sounds more like, what can the butch do for the femme, and that's I don't know... Ok I'm getting long winded...

to some this up, is it exchange or a relationship?

sue

Originally Posted by mariamma

Then I must not be a femme. Love, respect, honesty and a sex drive are my top needs. And proximity. If someone needs to be pampered and taken care of, then her being honest about her needs is good.
As for the other thing, I'm a nurse and would not know what to do if my lover had a panic attack. Mostly because it's an individual thing. I do know that I can learn and work with a friend/lover who was prone to panic attacks. If that's a deal breaker for her, then again, good thing she is being honest.
Personally, I have given up on looking for love. I'm poor, have 3 kids, am missing teeth and most importantly...I am too much for all my ex'es. Yes, their pivotal relationships are with me. Yes, I break up with them (except my first gf and bf) because they regress. Yes, there was love but it turned bitter and I can't tolerate them anymore. I love deep and hard. Maybe it's better that I not love randomly.
You feel like you want more and maybe you're ready for love or companionship. If this is the case, wait for a serious love who can be with you without $$$ and understands how to relate with you and what you need from her when you're panicking. Wait for what you need in your life.