What every Femme should know...

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Julie

We all have our various ways of reacting and responding.

I have read through all of the posts and I do not see where the OP was yelled at. I think many of us have tried to educate and explain the problem with such a posting as this.

Where is your education in this? I would like to know how you would speak to the OP in a constructive manner that would inform and educate, not only him, but other members of our community who might do the same thing.

Julie

I dont want to speak for NorCalStud. I offer up the dialogue we had here today as an example of how education can be done in a constructive manner.

I wanted to ask the questions I did since yesterday. But, was hesitant to do so cuz when I have done so in the past, I have gotten my hat handed to me in what were, to me, unkind ways. Sometimes it was deserved. Sometimes maybe not.

Today, when I saw your post to Jist explaining how what occured was a good thing and why it was a good thing, it made me more comfortable taking the risk of asking my questions.

Today, I got a response that I appreciated because it helped me understand something in a different way without making me feel like I was a total ass for not getting it.

It helped a lot that you and I had a direct dialogue and that for the most part others stayed silent and let it develop. As a result, it wrapped up quickly. I was able to understand what you meant was not how I had read it. Simple enough.

Some times when others chime in to help with explanations, I find it more confusing and it feels like, tho it may not be intended as such, a gang bang. Sometimes more is not better. Sometimes more is just more confusing.

I think it also helps right off the bat to say something like "Jist maybe you dont realize that what you posted is problematic but it is and here's why". To me, that is putting the focus on the content rather than on the person. And the issue is with the content right?

If we dont make that clear from the start, then the passion in and focus of our posts makes it look like and feel like someone is being chastised. That makes it is easy to take it personally. Been there, done that. And, as a result, it is easy to become defensive. It might be different for you but once I am on the defensive, even if you explain that it is not me but the content, it takes a while for the emotion to dissipate.

When I saw your explanation of why it was a good thing, I could reread the posts and see it in a different light, tho some still smarted a bit.

I also reminded myself that taking a snip from its context can be misleading cuz without context the words can mean something totally different. If I had read your entire post and the sequence of posts, I probably would have understood the words differently. But maybe not cuz I was caught up in the tone (passion) which felt kind of hostile not good.

Does that make sense?

[Corkey]

I think the usage of words is important, if the title had been something along the lines of what every femme should know ( about me ) then perhaps it may have made it more palatable.
Blanket statements tend to get discussed, as they should. Making "I" statements not so much.
I do not believe anyone attacked the op, and speaking for me, this is me being "nice".
I think integrity and honesty are important, and explaining why blanket statements are not such a good thing in any community.
Sentiments are great, but stereotypical misogynistic statements are going to get discussed. Yey for diversity!

[NorCalStud]

Im almost sixty. It was not until I was almost 30 that I heard the whole story about north america.

What is a real story? The real story has all the parts...not some of the parts.

Part of the story of our reactions to this piece of our bfp herstory is that the op was made fun of. If you didnt do it then okay but it was done.

I am learning that info is all so Im trying to remember to ask questions first so that is one way I may have dealt with it. Curiosity is friendly. Everybody fucks words up. What I really want to know about someone is what their tone is and what they are reverant about. My part in this story has one purpose....to help some see...

[BullDog]

Kobi, why don't you practice what you preach.

Now, I am off with my sweetie to a basketball game. Go Lady Vols!

Have a great night everyone.

[weatherboi]

i don't equate passion for hostility. i think it is on the reader not to make up stuff in there heads about a members tone of post. we are all adults here and as long as everybody is following the TOS it should be all good. Honestly all this talk of how the femmes should voice their opinions and the accusations of yelling and laughing sounds like the same old deflective song and dance some butches and transguys do when they have a hard time accepting they have crossed a boundary or insulted some femme or not femme members.

[BullDog]

Passionate does not equate hostility.

Kobi, why are you always trying to control the "tone" of how people speak (usually femmes)? It is seriously irritating.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Passionate does not equate hostility.

Kobi, why are you always trying to control the "tone" of how people speak (usually femmes)? It is seriously irritating.

Julie asked how we could make the process more constructive.

This makes sense given we are a developing community with new members added everyday who are going to make mistakes. Looking at how we can deal with mistakes more effectively without hurting peoples feelings in the process makes sense to me.

I voiced my opinion on the matter based on my experience in this thread today. And, I voiced why I felt the way I did.

You know what irritates me? It irritates me that I saw the original post before anyone responded to it. I could have said something to Jist and I didnt. And I didnt because I didnt want to get stuck in the middle of what I knew was going to be a problem. I didnt want to deal with the passion that was likely to find it way to me.

Knowing I did this makes me feel pretty fucking shitty about me. I let Jist down. And I let me down. Just like the Femmes have a code of honor, so do we butches. I dropped the ball here simply because I didnt want to put up with the bull. And that is making me feel pretty fucking cowardly.

And Jist, I owe you an apology. I should have said something to you and I didnt. I'm sorry. Maybe if we can discuss this without people getting chaffed, we can stop this from happening to other people.

If you need to feel chaffed, do it. I got my own irritations to deal with and, today, you are not going to be one of them.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Julie asked how we could make the process more constructive.

This makes sense given we are a developing community with new members added everyday who are going to make mistakes. Looking at how we can deal with mistakes more effectively without hurting peoples feelings in the process makes sense to me.

I voiced my opinion on the matter based on my experience in this thread today. And, I voiced why I felt the way I did.

You know what irritates me? It irritates me that I saw the original post before anyone responded to it. I could have said something to Jist and I didnt. And I didnt because I didnt want to get stuck in the middle of what I knew was going to be a problem. I didnt want to deal with the passion that was likely to find it way to me.

Knowing I did this makes me feel pretty fucking shitty about me. I let Jist down. And I let me down. Just like the Femmes have a code of honor, so do we butches. I dropped the ball here simply because I didnt want to put up with the bull. And that is making me feel pretty fucking cowardly.

And Jist, I owe you an apology. I should have said something to you and I didnt. I'm sorry. Maybe if we can discuss this without people getting chaffed, we can stop this from happening to other people.

If you need to feel chaffed, do it. I got my own irritations to deal with and, today, you are not going to be one of them.

I really think you are spending a lot of time and energy worrying about whether or not people (yourself included) are going to get their/your feelings hurt.

We have a magnet on our fridge at home that says, "put your big girl panties on and deal with it." 'Nuff said. We are all adults. Some of us more direct than others, some handle tough situations with humor (JAGG) and others are natural peace-keepers. No one is right or wrong. What becomes challenging and frustrating is when people start personalizing everything, don't learn from situations, and continue to scream VICTIM!

I don't think you behaved cowardly, but I do read a lot of passive/agressiveness in your posts, and I personally don't generally have positive reactions to that sort of behavior. But that's just me.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I dont want to speak for NorCalStud. I offer up the dialogue we had here today as an example of how education can be done in a constructive manner.

I wanted to ask the questions I did since yesterday. But, was hesitant to do so cuz when I have done so in the past, I have gotten my hat handed to me in what were, to me, unkind ways. Sometimes it was deserved. Sometimes maybe not.

Today, when I saw your post to Jist explaining how what occured was a good thing and why it was a good thing, it made me more comfortable taking the risk of asking my questions.

Today, I got a response that I appreciated because it helped me understand something in a different way without making me feel like I was a total ass for not getting it.

It helped a lot that you and I had a direct dialogue and that for the most part others stayed silent and let it develop. As a result, it wrapped up quickly. I was able to understand what you meant was not how I had read it. Simple enough.

Some times when others chime in to help with explanations, I find it more confusing and it feels like, tho it may not be intended as such, a gang bang. Sometimes more is not better. Sometimes more is just more confusing.

I think it also helps right off the bat to say something like "Jist maybe you dont realize that what you posted is problematic but it is and here's why". To me, that is putting the focus on the content rather than on the person. And the issue is with the content right?

If we dont make that clear from the start, then the passion in and focus of our posts makes it look like and feel like someone is being chastised. That makes it is easy to take it personally. Been there, done that. And, as a result, it is easy to become defensive. It might be different for you but once I am on the defensive, even if you explain that it is not me but the content, it takes a while for the emotion to dissipate.

When I saw your explanation of why it was a good thing, I could reread the posts and see it in a different light, tho some still smarted a bit.

I also reminded myself that taking a snip from its context can be misleading cuz without context the words can mean something totally different. If I had read your entire post and the sequence of posts, I probably would have understood the words differently. But maybe not cuz I was caught up in the tone (passion) which felt kind of hostile not good.

Does that make sense?

I have been really working hard to not react and respond. I know in the past, I have jumped in and voiced my very strong opinion. Sometimes it was valid and warranted, other times I know I could have handled the situation better. But emotions do come in. We are all human beings with one common attribute. We are emotional. Be it rational or irrational, emotions are simply that.

Each of us here have our own skills in communicating. Not all people can formulate the structure of educating posters in one form or another. We all have our individual styles. I have been accused on numerous occasions of ganging up - dog piling, etc. I will use my relationship with Snow as an example. Snow and I are friends. We also share a lot of the same political views, as well as how we as Femme's and Women prefer to be addressed and spoken to.

And here comes the BAM!

If Snow is positing in a thread which might be controversial and then I come in and post in that thread, with similar thought processes - We are immediately called out for ganging up on the person. This is really unfair Kobi and unjust. It just so happens that we are friends and share similar thought processes. I stopped posting for awhile, because I got tired of people yelling and screaming gang bang or dog pile. It got really old. I thought about NOT posting in this thread, because Snow posted before me - but I said... Bullshit. These are my thoughts and emotions and I have every right to post in a thread, as does Snow, as do you and as does every other community member here, without people screaming their automatic response of being bullied because they are being called out.

I am glad we had the dialogue we did. It was absolutely constructive and it was good. But I do want to say. Just because we had the dialogue we did and it was positive - does not mean others will have the same type of dialogue. We all communicate differently and that is in part what makes this community so rich and diverse.

Julie

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I dont want to speak for NorCalStud. I offer up the dialogue we had here today as an example of how education can be done in a constructive manner.

I wanted to ask the questions I did since yesterday. But, was hesitant to do so cuz when I have done so in the past, I have gotten my hat handed to me in what were, to me, unkind ways. Sometimes it was deserved. Sometimes maybe not.

Today, when I saw your post to Jist explaining how what occured was a good thing and why it was a good thing, it made me more comfortable taking the risk of asking my questions.

Today, I got a response that I appreciated because it helped me understand something in a different way without making me feel like I was a total ass for not getting it.

It helped a lot that you and I had a direct dialogue and that for the most part others stayed silent and let it develop. As a result, it wrapped up quickly. I was able to understand what you meant was not how I had read it. Simple enough.

Some times when others chime in to help with explanations, I find it more confusing and it feels like, tho it may not be intended as such, a gang bang. Sometimes more is not better. Sometimes more is just more confusing.

I think it also helps right off the bat to say something like "Jist maybe you dont realize that what you posted is problematic but it is and here's why". To me, that is putting the focus on the content rather than on the person. And the issue is with the content right?

If we dont make that clear from the start, then the passion in and focus of our posts makes it look like and feel like someone is being chastised. That makes it is easy to take it personally. Been there, done that. And, as a result, it is easy to become defensive. It might be different for you but once I am on the defensive, even if you explain that it is not me but the content, it takes a while for the emotion to dissipate.

When I saw your explanation of why it was a good thing, I could reread the posts and see it in a different light, tho some still smarted a bit.

I also reminded myself that taking a snip from its context can be misleading cuz without context the words can mean something totally different. If I had read your entire post and the sequence of posts, I probably would have understood the words differently. But maybe not cuz I was caught up in the tone (passion) which felt kind of hostile not good.

Does that make sense?

See Kobi I have a problem with some of your statement here and I'll highlight it. I have a right to speak up about subjects that are problematic, as does everyone. Some times I feel as though you are trying to silence me, and others by your statements. I usually get past it because I don't let anyone silence me, be that as it may. The learning curve is different for everyone, thing is someone may have a different way of learning than you or I do. Not everything is obvious.

[Kobi]

I will try and make this as simple as possible.

If you want to build bridges, you build bridges. To build bridges, it takes give and take, it takes adjustments on everyones part, it means being committed to learning new stuff that we might not want to learn. That means if someone tells you (generic you) they feel hostility, do you have the right to tell them they dont? Who is the better judge of what they feel and why they feel it...you or them?

If you dont want someone telling you (generic you) what you as a butch or femme should think and feel, you do not have the right to tell them they are not entitled to what they feel and think. It is a 2 way street. Cant get if you dont give. Well you can but thats how wars start.

If you want to build pseudo bridges i.e. the illusion of bridges without doing the actual work to actually build them, have at it. And when we keep revisiting history over and over again, are we justified in saying over and over this irritates me or that person irritates me cuz they dont agree with me, or why is my passion a problem etc? I dont think so.

I am not advocating people be silent. I was silent and it is making me feel crappy. I am not advocating people not be passionate. Passion is good. Im not even advocating you not be chaffed. Chaff away.

What I am advocating is, if the goal is to be constructive, then post constructively. You can be passionate and still be constructive. If the goal is to educate, you can still educate without making someone feel crappy in the process.

And if someone is telling you (generic you) that something you are doing or saying is making them feel crappy or attacked - stop and listen to them. Maybe you are doing something. Maybe that isnt your intent but that is how they are experiencing you at that moment. Will it fucking kill us to just stop and listen for a change? Might we actually learn something?

I dont want to chaff BullDog or make Corkey feel silenced or make Julie feel she cant post after someone else. I dont. It makes me feel bad that they think this. Its not my intent.

Let me ask this.... and let it stew a bit. When do we stop talking about looking out for our brothers and sisters and actually start doing it? Do we have as much responsibility to look out for Jist as we do to look out for Corkey or BullDog or Julie and anyone else I am bound to chaff today?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I will try and make this as simple as possible.

If you want to build bridges, you build bridges. To build bridges, it takes give and take, it takes adjustments on everyones part, it means being committed to learning new stuff that we might not want to learn. That means if someone tells you (generic you) they feel hostility, do you have the right to tell them they dont? Who is the better judge of what they feel and why they feel it...you or them?

If you dont want someone telling you (generic you) what you as a butch or femme should think and feel, you do not have the right to tell them they are not entitled to what they feel and think. It is a 2 way street. Cant get if you dont give. Well you can but thats how wars start.

If you want to build pseudo bridges i.e. the illusion of bridges without doing the actual work to actually build them, have at it. And when we keep revisiting history over and over again, are we justified in saying over and over this irritates me or that person irritates me cuz they dont agree with me, or why is my passion a problem etc? I dont think so.

I am not advocating people be silent. I was silent and it is making me feel crappy. I am not advocating people not be passionate. Passion is good. Im not even advocating you not be chaffed. Chaff away.

What I am advocating is, if the goal is to be constructive, then post constructively. You can be passionate and still be constructive. If the goal is to educate, you can still educate without making someone feel crappy in the process.

And if someone is telling you (generic you) that something you are doing or saying is making them feel crappy or attacked - stop and listen to them. Maybe you are doing something. Maybe that isnt your intent but that is how they are experiencing you at that moment. Will it fucking kill us to just stop and listen for a change? Might we actually learn something?

I dont want to chaff BullDog or make Corkey feel silenced or make Julie feel she cant post after someone else. I dont. It makes me feel bad that they think this. Its not my intent.

Let me ask this.... and let it stew a bit. When do we stop talking about looking out for our brothers and sisters and actually start doing it? Do we have as much responsibility to look out for Jist as we do to look out for Corkey or BullDog or Julie and anyone else I am bound to chaff today?

I think we have to be adults and look out for ourselves. If that means being blunt, then that's what it means. I think we have to be aware of our words, that they may turn around and bite us in the rump. Most importantly I think we have to be aware that our words can be offensive.
Do I think it was done deliberately, not in the least. Holding a defensive position for too long can scream victim, whether one is or not. Egging people on is kind of like waving a red towel at a bull, there's gonna be consequences.

[Novelafemme]

"And if someone is telling you (generic you) that something you are doing or saying is making them feel crappy or attacked - stop and listen to them. Maybe you are doing something. Maybe that isnt your intent but that is how they are experiencing you at that moment. Will it fucking kill us to just stop and listen for a change? Might we actually learn something?

I dont want to chaff BullDog or make Corkey feel silenced or make Julie feel she cant post after someone else. I dont. It makes me feel bad that they think this. Its not my intent.

Let me ask this.... and let it stew a bit. When do we stop talking about looking out for our brothers and sisters and actually start doing it? Do we have as much responsibility to look out for Jist as we do to look out for Corkey or BullDog or Julie and anyone else I am bound to chaff today?"



Oh dear...this is getting quite redundant.

Feelings are wonderful and amazing and beneficial EMOTIONS! Behavior is how you actualize your thought process, the physical manifestation of how your brain interprets various stimuli, and ultimately, how you respond. If you interpret every situation emotionally than you are going to exhaust not only yourself but lots of others in trying to get everyone to not only see something from your perspective (which is emotional) but to agree with it as well.

[Scuba]

I didn't appear to ME that JistMe meant harm or was telling others what they should or should not be in life. It was simply an expression of emotion...

This is the writing and poetry thread. For the sake of having a place to expose ourselves through our writing WITHOUT persecution I ask you to PLEASE take this discussion to another thread more suitable for the topic.

Scoobs

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by scubadyke

I didn't not appear to ME that JistMe meant harm or was telling others what they should or should be in life. It was simply an expression of emotion...

This is the writing and poetry thread. For the sake of having a place to expose ourselves through our writing WITHOUT persecution I ask you to PLEASE take this discussion to another thread more suitable for the topic.

Scoobs

My apologies, Scoobs. I just now, for the first time, looked up and saw where it was I am. I'm bad at that.

[Corkey]

I think calling out isms is appropriate in any thread.

[pynkkameleon]

As one who is also new to this site, I can easily understand why JistMe felt somewhat attacked. I think that I would have felt that way too. This thread should have been a safe place to share well intended, simple and sweet words.

I do think however that this created a very valuable and worthy discussion (thank you JistME) that should continue elsewhere without the OP's intentions being the center of the discussion. I truly feel as if I have gotten quite a bit out of it and I would like to see it continue.

As someone who is finding her voice and her place on this site, I do have to say that I am a bit disappointed and somewhat intimidated by the very occasional rude comment I see made, not against JistMe, but towards others that are simply sharing their point of view or even just asking for clarification. I'm not talking about the humor, such as JAGG's lovely list of "DO NOT DO'S". I think that throwing in that bit of humor is awesome, appreciated and a necessary means to keep any conversation or debate lively. I'm talking about the personal attacks. Respect and honor each person's opinions and if you so vehemently disagree that you can't be at least kind, step away and go find something else to do. It's those kinds of attitudes that cause drama and dissuade others from wanting to get involved in these discussions and oftentimes cause them to miss out on the value of being a part of such a wonderful and diverse community.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Vonni

As one who is also new to this site, I can easily understand why JistMe felt somewhat attacked. I think that I would have felt that way too. This thread should have been a safe place to share well intended, simple and sweet words.

I do think however that this created a very valuable and worthy discussion (thank you JistME) that should continue elsewhere without the OP's intentions being the center of the discussion. I truly feel as if I have gotten quite a bit out of it and I would like to see it continue.

As someone who is finding her voice and her place on this site, I do have to say that I am a bit disappointed and somewhat intimidated by the very occasional rude comment I see made, not against JistMe, but towards others that are simply sharing their point of view or even just asking for clarification. I'm not talking about the humor, such as JAGG's lovely list of "DO NOT DO'S". I think that throwing in that bit of humor is awesome, appreciated and a necessary means to keep any conversation or debate lively. I'm talking about the personal attacks. Respect and honor each person's opinions and if you so vehemently disagree that you can't be at least kind, step away and go find something else to do. It's those kinds of attitudes that cause drama and dissuade others from wanting to get involved in these discussions and oftentimes cause them to miss out on the value of being a part of such a wonderful and diverse community.

People don't respond well to finger wagging when they are pointing out ism's. Happens all the time. Every poster has followed the TOS, or we would have heard about it.

[julieisafemme]

Hi Vonni. Welcome to the site. I wanted to address some of the things you are talking about here. I know it is hard to jump in and start posting. One thing you mention is diversity. You are right that there is a lot of diversity here and it is part of what makes it so fun to read and post! I learn things all the time here.

On the dash site someone started a fun thread about OCD. At least that is what they though they were doing. I have OCD and so of course I was interested and went in to read it. It was actually not about OCD. It was about joking about being extra clean or particular about certain things. I wasn't offended but did want to post that for some people these quirks were'nt funny and actually were debilitating, scary and difficult to deal with. The OP pretty much called me a buzzkill. I was bumming people out. They suggested I go read something else or stay out of the thread.

I wasn't trying to cause problems or make a fuss. I wanted to suggest that maybe the thread not be called OCD but something else. I wanted to let people know that it might not be funny to everyone.

I am telling this story to illustrate that posting things and having others disagree or challenge what you are saying is the diversity that makes this site and others like it so great. Sometimes people may not be nice about it. One person's "nice" might be someone else's mean. I think it is ok to address someone and let them know that you are uncomfortable with what they have said or even how they have said it. That seems to be how things work on forums.

As far as the OP and this thread it seems like people have posted how they feel as femmes and are showing the diversity here.

Originally Posted by Vonni

As one who is also new to this site, I can easily understand why JistMe felt somewhat attacked. I think that I would have felt that way too. This thread should have been a safe place to share well intended, simple and sweet words.

I do think however that this created a very valuable and worthy discussion (thank you JistME) that should continue elsewhere without the OP's intentions being the center of the discussion. I truly feel as if I have gotten quite a bit out of it and I would like to see it continue.

As someone who is finding her voice and her place on this site, I do have to say that I am a bit disappointed and somewhat intimidated by the very occasional rude comment I see made, not against JistMe, but towards others that are simply sharing their point of view or even just asking for clarification. I'm not talking about the humor, such as JAGG's lovely list of "DO NOT DO'S". I think that throwing in that bit of humor is awesome, appreciated and a necessary means to keep any conversation or debate lively. I'm talking about the personal attacks. Respect and honor each person's opinions and if you so vehemently disagree that you can't be at least kind, step away and go find something else to do. It's those kinds of attitudes that cause drama and dissuade others from wanting to get involved in these discussions and oftentimes cause them to miss out on the value of being a part of such a wonderful and diverse community.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by scubadyke

I didn't not appear to ME that JistMe meant harm or was telling others what they should or should be in life. It was simply an expression of emotion...

This is the writing and poetry thread. For the sake of having a place to expose ourselves through our writing WITHOUT persecution I ask you to PLEASE take this discussion to another thread more suitable for the topic.

Scoobs

are you a new moderator or something?
and who gets to decide more suitable?