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Old 02-20-2010, 01:04 AM   #1
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Originally Posted by Goofy View Post

His plane, a piper cherokee, averages $30-40,000 for a plane that's 30 years old. Don't forget to add insurance, maintenance and storage fees since it obviously was not parked in his driveway. Maybe not a luxury liner, but far from cheap.

So everyday you go to work, you expect someone with a grievance to fly a plane into your place of work? I know I sure don't. I think it's fairly safe to say that most people don't have that fear.
The numbers I saw on used planes were much lower than the ones you found.

Hit by a plane? Not necessarily. But an 'assumption of safety'? No, I don't have an assumption of safety at my job. When I worked in construction, an 'assumption of safety' would get me killed, missing a limb, burned, missing a finger, etc. There's no 'assumption of safety'. I also worked with criminals. So, no...no assumption of safety there. I also worked with a number of unstable alcoholics...no safety there. There's no safety when you're working 50 stories up in the air, with unstable alcoholic criminals handling hot tar at temperatures over 600 degrees Fahrenheit.

Mahhh Woman who has a completely different type of job than construction has absolutely NO 'assumption of safety' and very often runs the risk of suffering the retribution of some pissed off citizen. Bomb threats in her building are quite frequent. She has even had to have police escorts as have many of her coworkers. Some of her coworkers have even had 24hour police protection. My girlfriend has also been evacuated from many government buildings other than the one she works in because of bomb threats. So, no...no assumption of safety.

Many government employees who deal with people's lives DON'T have an 'assumption of safety' at their jobs.

Nor do many hospital workers, police officers, emts, fire fighters, car mechanics, most factory workers, electricians, the ever popular postal workers, etc. Health insurance workers are also targeted frequently.

A friend of mine who works for a social justice non-profit also has been evacuated three times in the last two weeks by bomb threats. The two weeks before that, her building was on lockdown because of a shooter. So, no...no assumption of safety.

And then we get to courthouse workers including judges, lawyers, baliffs, etc who are often the targets of retaliation from pissed off citizens.

And the ever popular airport workers who are now dealing with bombs in shoes and underpants.

Human resources workers are also targeted frequently, because they mess with people's lives.

And this wasn't the IRS building where people just plug your 1040 return numbers into some database somewhere. These were the IRS workers who freeze your accounts. These are government workers who really disrupt people's lives, so I can assume (based on my girlfriend's experience as a government worker who disrupts people's lives but NOT to the extent of the IRS) that this isn't the first time these folks have dealt with some sort of retaliation.

When you're in a position in which you have control over people's lives, you can expect that people are going to get reallllly pissed off. Yeah, planes don't fly into buildings everyday (but loooorrrrrrdy be when they do, people flip the fuck out), but that doesn't mean that retaliation isn't undertaken everyday...especially toward those who have power and control over other people's finances, health, welfare, food, children, families, housing, livelihood, etc.


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Old 02-20-2010, 12:29 PM   #2
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<snipped for brevity>

When you're in a position in which you have control over people's lives, you can expect that people are going to get reallllly pissed off. Yeah, planes don't fly into buildings everyday (but loooorrrrrrdy be when they do, people flip the fuck out), but that doesn't mean that retaliation isn't undertaken everyday...especially toward those who have power and control over other people's finances, health, welfare, food, children, families, housing, livelihood, etc.


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Dylan, I get what you're saying...mostly. But I think you’re nit picking a bit.

MOST people in MOST jobs don’t fear for their lives every day. Police, Fire Fighters and EMTs are the ones that come to mind as those that do. Because they NEED to in order to do their jobs effectively. Even most people in the military have some level of assumed safety, unless they’re deployed in a hostile area.

I too have done various jobs in construction, roofing, etc. I took those jobs knowing there was an inherent risk involved in them. Those jobs involved risks that, for the most part, I could control. There was little concern that someone would come in and shoot me because I didn’t hang the drywall right.

As you know, I work for the government as well. We've had bomb threats, gun threats and various other threats. But I don't go to work every day thinking that this could be the day someone loses it and blows up the building. So there is a general “assumption of safety” there. I also worked in Human Resources where my office was threatened for not hiring someone. Hell, I worked at a pizza place in college that had a bomb threat. But those were rare incidents and certainly not indicative of daily operations

So while I agree with you that virtually no job is 100% safe, I feel believe that most people DO have an assumption of safety when they go into work.

No matter what sort of work the IRS did in that building gives anyone the right to fly a plane into it. Or threaten its workers in any way. We can argue this point till the sheep come home, but I’m still not buying it.
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Old 02-20-2010, 12:59 PM   #3
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Default Common Traits of Performance Murderers

Excerpted from Seven Deadly Traits by Dave Cullen@ Slate:

" I spoke with several experts in mass murder Thursday, and we identified seven deadly traits of impending danger in Stack's manifesto.

Narcissism/egocentricity: Joseph Stack ended his life with a supreme act of narcissism, and that quality leaps out of every line of his rationalization. It's all about him. Through 30 years of his torture, "thieves, liars and self-serving scumbags" in Congress continually targeted Stack personally. The IRS and his own accountant joined in to make him their personal whipping boy. When the Senate redrew the tax code in 1986, "they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d)," Stack writes.

Grandiosity: Stack's grievances are wildly overblown and his swipes at powerful institutions grand and hyperbolic: "the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church . . . monsters of organized religion," "thugs and plunderers" in corporate boardrooms driven by "gluttony and overwhelming stupidity" committing "unthinkable atrocities." More comical is Stack's portrait of his own misery. As a fuller, objective emerges, we're likely to see more dramatic chasms between reality and his depictions, but the contradictions are already comical. Stack likens his plight to an elderly woman in the neighborhood living on cat food. He doesn't mention eating it in the cockpit of his private plane. In Stack's version, he lived and died a pauper. In real life, he amassed a series of businesses, a $230,000 home in an affluent community, and the airplane he crashed into the building.

Martyr/injustice collector: Killers like Stack love to project themselves as martyrs, but that thinking often emerges from a long history of collecting injustices, while ignoring his ever-growing wealth. Big Brother "strips my carcass," Stack complains. His antagonists are merciless: "[A]s usual, they left me to rot and die." He complains that the 1986 tax revision might as well as "directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave."

Superiority masking self-loathing (projection): Stack lashes out at "the incredible stupidity of the American public": "brainwashed" "zombies" who follow along dutifully, incapable of his keen insights to look right through the horror of "the real American nightmare." It's a feeble claim of superiority, when the entire treatise reeks of self-loathing. Stark ends with an attack on capitalism—"From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed." But this is not a man who rejected the system. He only rejected the idea of paying his taxes. He spent his life creating businesses, working the system, and constantly keeping score with his bank balance. Stack embraced capitalism and then convinced himself he was a dismal failure at it.
There is a strong hint of projection in Stack's thinking. When he complains of moving to a better life in Austin and discovering "a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance," he might as well be describing the document he's composing. Projection is common among depressed people, who take a personal trait they despise in themselves and apply it to something external to bat around and ridicule. The televangelist who decries immorality in the midst of an affair is a classic example. It looks to us like conscious hypocrisy, but it's really just a dirty little reusable tool for him to beat up on his own sins.

Isolationist thinking: This served as an aggravating factor for Stack. He presents himself as battling a monolithic series of adversaries: big business, big government, Big Brother, big religion. He sees himself as a shrunken David unable to match this Goliath. There is a suggestion of paranoia here. Stack is a supremely unreliable narrator of his own story, but he does seem to have created real financial hardship for himself. When he repeatedly chose not to pay his taxes, one or more of his business licenses was suspended.
That seems to be at the heart of Stack's whole mess. Unnamed, but ever-present in his commentary, is his immersion in a fringe group or groups who believed they were exempt from the federal income tax. By his account, Stack devoted enormous time, energy, and possibly money to this cause.
Stack made some awful choices on his taxes, but surrounding himself with like-minded zealots may have been just as dangerous in the long run. In his insightful FBI study "The Lethal Triad," Dr. Kevin Gilmartin describes intellectual isolation as a key factor when extremists lash out violently. It's counterintuitive, but joining certain groups can be more isolating than living alone. Stack found a group that encouraged and validated the idea of avoiding taxation, which might have been difficult for him to sustain on his own. The moral support he found appears to have helped him sustain a rather nutty concept for 20 to 30 years, in spite of the economic distress it inflicted on him.

Construing selfishness as selflessness: Stack needed a coping strategy, a rationalization for his financial failure. He found one in patriotism. Sure, it may look like greed to keep 100 percent of your paycheck, but Stack was doing it all for us! And, oh, the price he paid. "That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0."

Helplessness/hopelessness: Joseph Stack committed both homicide and suicide this week, but all the signs point to suicide as the driver. The FBI trains hostage negotiators to look for two clear signals that a perpetrator is likely to do himself in. Helplessness is the sense that I can't get things to work out. Hopelessness sets in when that belief becomes permanent: The helplessness is here to stay. Stack's manifesto reeks of both. He felt powerless and took control in the only way he knew he could "win." He was pretty sure that if he crashed that plane his life would end. He just needed a way to justify it.

That's where the first four symptoms—narcissism, grandiosity, superiority, and martyrdom—came back into play. Performance murders like Stack's are narcissism taken to its worst extreme. Lots of people will die, most of them innocent, but sorry, I had to kill them to make my point. It's all about me."

http://www.slate.com/id/2245337/
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Old 02-20-2010, 04:25 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclopea View Post
Excerpted from Seven Deadly Traits by Dave Cullen@ Slate:

" I spoke with several experts in mass murder Thursday, and we identified seven deadly traits of impending danger in Stack's manifesto.

Narcissism/egocentricity: Joseph Stack ended his life with a supreme act of narcissism, and that quality leaps out of every line of his rationalization. It's all about him. Through 30 years of his torture, "thieves, liars and self-serving scumbags" in Congress continually targeted Stack personally. The IRS and his own accountant joined in to make him their personal whipping boy. When the Senate redrew the tax code in 1986, "they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d)," Stack writes.

Grandiosity: Stack's grievances are wildly overblown and his swipes at powerful institutions grand and hyperbolic: "the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church . . . monsters of organized religion," "thugs and plunderers" in corporate boardrooms driven by "gluttony and overwhelming stupidity" committing "unthinkable atrocities." More comical is Stack's portrait of his own misery. As a fuller, objective emerges, we're likely to see more dramatic chasms between reality and his depictions, but the contradictions are already comical. Stack likens his plight to an elderly woman in the neighborhood living on cat food. He doesn't mention eating it in the cockpit of his private plane. In Stack's version, he lived and died a pauper. In real life, he amassed a series of businesses, a $230,000 home in an affluent community, and the airplane he crashed into the building.

Martyr/injustice collector: Killers like Stack love to project themselves as martyrs, but that thinking often emerges from a long history of collecting injustices, while ignoring his ever-growing wealth. Big Brother "strips my carcass," Stack complains. His antagonists are merciless: "[A]s usual, they left me to rot and die." He complains that the 1986 tax revision might as well as "directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave."

Superiority masking self-loathing (projection): Stack lashes out at "the incredible stupidity of the American public": "brainwashed" "zombies" who follow along dutifully, incapable of his keen insights to look right through the horror of "the real American nightmare." It's a feeble claim of superiority, when the entire treatise reeks of self-loathing. Stark ends with an attack on capitalism—"From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed." But this is not a man who rejected the system. He only rejected the idea of paying his taxes. He spent his life creating businesses, working the system, and constantly keeping score with his bank balance. Stack embraced capitalism and then convinced himself he was a dismal failure at it.
There is a strong hint of projection in Stack's thinking. When he complains of moving to a better life in Austin and discovering "a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance," he might as well be describing the document he's composing. Projection is common among depressed people, who take a personal trait they despise in themselves and apply it to something external to bat around and ridicule. The televangelist who decries immorality in the midst of an affair is a classic example. It looks to us like conscious hypocrisy, but it's really just a dirty little reusable tool for him to beat up on his own sins.

Isolationist thinking: This served as an aggravating factor for Stack. He presents himself as battling a monolithic series of adversaries: big business, big government, Big Brother, big religion. He sees himself as a shrunken David unable to match this Goliath. There is a suggestion of paranoia here. Stack is a supremely unreliable narrator of his own story, but he does seem to have created real financial hardship for himself. When he repeatedly chose not to pay his taxes, one or more of his business licenses was suspended.
That seems to be at the heart of Stack's whole mess. Unnamed, but ever-present in his commentary, is his immersion in a fringe group or groups who believed they were exempt from the federal income tax. By his account, Stack devoted enormous time, energy, and possibly money to this cause.
Stack made some awful choices on his taxes, but surrounding himself with like-minded zealots may have been just as dangerous in the long run. In his insightful FBI study "The Lethal Triad," Dr. Kevin Gilmartin describes intellectual isolation as a key factor when extremists lash out violently. It's counterintuitive, but joining certain groups can be more isolating than living alone. Stack found a group that encouraged and validated the idea of avoiding taxation, which might have been difficult for him to sustain on his own. The moral support he found appears to have helped him sustain a rather nutty concept for 20 to 30 years, in spite of the economic distress it inflicted on him.

Construing selfishness as selflessness: Stack needed a coping strategy, a rationalization for his financial failure. He found one in patriotism. Sure, it may look like greed to keep 100 percent of your paycheck, but Stack was doing it all for us! And, oh, the price he paid. "That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0."

Helplessness/hopelessness: Joseph Stack committed both homicide and suicide this week, but all the signs point to suicide as the driver. The FBI trains hostage negotiators to look for two clear signals that a perpetrator is likely to do himself in. Helplessness is the sense that I can't get things to work out. Hopelessness sets in when that belief becomes permanent: The helplessness is here to stay. Stack's manifesto reeks of both. He felt powerless and took control in the only way he knew he could "win." He was pretty sure that if he crashed that plane his life would end. He just needed a way to justify it.

That's where the first four symptoms—narcissism, grandiosity, superiority, and martyrdom—came back into play. Performance murders like Stack's are narcissism taken to its worst extreme. Lots of people will die, most of them innocent, but sorry, I had to kill them to make my point. It's all about me."

http://www.slate.com/id/2245337/
Thanks for posting this information, very helpful to me. I haven't looked at some of the forensic behavioral literature in quite awhile.
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Old 02-20-2010, 04:53 PM   #5
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Dylan, I get what you're saying...mostly. But I think you’re nit picking a bit.

MOST people in MOST jobs don’t fear for their lives every day. Police, Fire Fighters and EMTs are the ones that come to mind as those that do. Because they NEED to in order to do their jobs effectively. Even most people in the military have some level of assumed safety, unless they’re deployed in a hostile area.

I too have done various jobs in construction, roofing, etc. I took those jobs knowing there was an inherent risk involved in them. Those jobs involved risks that, for the most part, I could control. There was little concern that someone would come in and shoot me because I didn’t hang the drywall right.

As you know, I work for the government as well. We've had bomb threats, gun threats and various other threats. But I don't go to work every day thinking that this could be the day someone loses it and blows up the building. So there is a general “assumption of safety” there. I also worked in Human Resources where my office was threatened for not hiring someone. Hell, I worked at a pizza place in college that had a bomb threat. But those were rare incidents and certainly not indicative of daily operations

So while I agree with you that virtually no job is 100% safe, I feel believe that most people DO have an assumption of safety when they go into work.

No matter what sort of work the IRS did in that building gives anyone the right to fly a plane into it. Or threaten its workers in any way. We can argue this point till the sheep come home, but I’m still not buying it.
And I disagree that it's a *most* people thing. I think more people than less have an assumed danger in their jobs. But we can agree to disagree.

I didn't know you work for the government...I thought you worked at a dentist's office.

Again, I don't know what you do for the government, but you're welcome to talk to Mahhh Woman about the (un)safety of her job. I'm sure her friend who was under 24hour police protection for months (I think it was months) would be willing to tell you about her experiences being followed, called on her personal phones, etc by known criminals.

Again, you're leaving out judges, district attorneys (more of Mahhh Woman's friends), court workers, etc.

I also don't know how long you were in construction, but I've seen some horrible accidents and even a man get run over by one of those big asphalt rollers. Only one of the accidents (a guy who accidently poured two buckets of hot tar all over his face...it was pretty horrible) was under the person's control. And when I set a man's leg on fire...it wasn't under his control.

We have probation and parole officers.

My point is, there is no assumed safety when dealing with other people. No one really knows when someone is going to snap. And if you're in a position that completely disrupts the lives of others, the chances of someone snapping go up.

Just as there's no assumed safety when driving your car. You never know what someone else is going to do. I mean, like you said, even at a pizza shop there's a bomb threat. And how many churches (they're 'supposed' to be safe) have been bombed?


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Old 02-20-2010, 04:57 PM   #6
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And I left out all of the places in which One has to walk through a metal detector before entering...which now includes schools in some areas.

If there's an assumption of safety, why are there metal detectors?


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