A straight girl enters the queer world...

[weatherboi]

First off i just wanna say that i consider Bully my friend and shaming her would never be my intention. Her and i have had good times in real time and am sure we will have more in the future. Our opinions, feelings, and thoughts on this website do not encompass all that we are as individuals and I hope our friendship can reflect that.


Hey Corkey-

Injecting your reaction is ok but I wasn't shaming anybody although if people take that feeling away from what i posted then maybe they should look further into what they stated or agreed with in the first place. I also said in my first sentence that we could all use a little more understanding of each other so your redundancy of it makes no sense to me and maybe you can clarify that? Bully and Parker both came into this thread stating and supporting sweeping sentiments about how transguys/ftms don't do as much work when in reality they don't know this. Facts are important and when they don't offer any up after posting around this generalization more than twice i am gonna say something. It would be a diservice to myself if i didn't and i am not gonna sit quiet when someone wants to finger wag at me. You can do it but it isn't gonna make me stay silent about my thoughts on any subject.


IMO-The shaming stuff is starting to sound like the bullying stuff is starting to sound like the gang mentality clique stuff. A big deflection on taking responsibility for our own reactions and feelings/opinions/posts. It is ridiculous and that is my opinion, and perfectly ok for me to feel this way. It gets old and i am not gonna let it silence me. I am allowed to have a counter opinion, so are you, and so is everybody else. Calling each other bad communicators or absentee communicators is another deflection cruising towards policing how people post. I often wonder if maybe when we use this tactic if we aren't making assumptions as to how people are posting and the space they are posting from.

Originally Posted by Corkey

I think we all could understand that ID has nothing to do with how the heart responds to individuals. Humans have this thing called communication, perhaps communicating instead of being sick and shaming would go further. It isn't about Female id's vs Male id, and again I hate this. It has to do with facts. Just because a Butch expressed her opinion doesn't make it fact. Homework could be done by all.

[BullDog]

No I haven't made sweeping statements or generalizations. My statements are based on what I have and haven't read on bf forums for over 10 years. I have seen lots and lots of conversations by femmes trying to understand transmen and their struggles. I have seen very little about transmen educating themselves about lesbians/queer femmes, talking about needing to join support groups, how their id changes based on who they date etc.

There was an transman who just yesterday said he tried to find such conversation when he was dealing with some issues and couldn't find any.

If I have somehow missed all of these types of fascinating conversations over the years feel free to provide links so I can read them.

I also stated at least 2 or 3 times that private conversations between couples could be different.

None of my posts had anything to do with butch vs transmen. None whatsoever. Some issues will be the same, some will be different in terms of dating a transman or dating a butch.

I am out. I have real life in the real world to enjoy.

[Martina]

If i were a straight girl involved with a transman, i might not want to do much research. But i would expect to want to know everything that is important about the individual man i was with. i don't think one needs to get a degree in gender studies to date a transperson. But if she is so anxious that she is needing to talk about it all the time, then some research would probably help.

i have in the past been stunned at the extent that some woman who ID as SOFFA have taken that identity. If someone told me that i had to adopt that ID in order to date a transman, i would be outta there fast.

That one's ID is as a significant OTHER, that that is cultivated and studied and developed as an identity beyond a description of one's life or sexual orientation has always been something i KNEW i could never do.

(This may no longer be the case, but back in the day, there were professional SOFFA's out there. They knew more about transitioning than they guys did, were activists, wrote newsletters, got gender studies degrees, etc.) All fine. Their choice, but they stood up in groups as the model or ideal of SOFFA'ness. i have attended meetings and events with such examplars, and at that time, i was sometimes dating transmen. It was just so not me -- that version of SOFFA. i could not even grasp it. And i really wondered what young women new to these groups were thinking they had to do and be in order to stay with their partner.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

First off i just wanna say that i consider Bully my friend and shaming her would never be my intention. Her and i have had good times in real time and am sure we will have more in the future. Our opinions, feelings, and thoughts on this website do not encompass all that we are as individuals and I hope our friendship can reflect that.


Hey Corkey-

Injecting your reaction is ok but I wasn't shaming anybody although if people take that feeling away from what i posted then maybe they should look further into what they stated or agreed with in the first place. I also said in my first sentence that we could all use a little more understanding of each other so your redundancy of it makes no sense to me and maybe you can clarify that? Bully and Parker both came into this thread stating and supporting sweeping sentiments about how transguys/ftms don't do as much work when in reality they don't know this. Facts are important and when they don't offer any up after posting around this generalization more than twice i am gonna say something. It would be a diservice to myself if i didn't and i am not gonna sit quiet when someone wants to finger wag at me. You can do it but it isn't gonna make me stay silent about my thoughts on any subject.


IMO-The shaming stuff is starting to sound like the bullying stuff is starting to sound like the gang mentality clique stuff. A big deflection on taking responsibility for our own reactions and feelings/opinions/posts. It is ridiculous and that is my opinion, and perfectly ok for me to feel this way. It gets old and i am not gonna let it silence me. I am allowed to have a counter opinion, so are you, and so is everybody else. Calling each other bad communicators or absentee communicators is another deflection cruising towards policing how people post. I often wonder if maybe when we use this tactic if we aren't making assumptions as to how people are posting and the space they are posting from.

Your statement was shaming, good thing I have thick skin. BullDog and I may not always agree, but at least I ask for clarification from her. I don't let folks silence me either, and I'm rather blunt about it.

BullDog, you did make a blanket statement and you clarified your position. That works for me. I'm still gonna call you on blanket statements but that's how I work. I expect you to do the same for me.

As for me and mine, we talk about lots of things, most things have nothing to do with our identification. As a married couple we accommodate each other we get along just fine. *You* all probably never come into the conversations we have, but yep we have them. And if you are a friend of mine you would know how much I fight against the patriarchy.

Back to the subject. No the woman's id doesn't change when she becomes involved with any of the lgbt community. She is still a straight female. I do think those two need to have this discussion amongst themselves, as neither of them are here and we know next to nothing about them.My .02

[Parker]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Injecting your reaction is ok but I wasn't shaming anybody although if people take that feeling away from what i posted then maybe they should look further into what they stated or agreed with in the first place. I also said in my first sentence that we could all use a little more understanding of each other so your redundancy of it makes no sense to me and maybe you can clarify that? Bully and Parker both came into this thread stating and supporting sweeping sentiments about how transguys/ftms don't do as much work when in reality they don't know this.

Man, you like to stir up some shit, walk away, then come back with some misplaced righteous indignation later, huh?

I refused to take your bait when you pulled this shit in the duplicity thread and I am not taking it now - Bulldog said something and I agreed because I have seen it - or rather, the lack of it - too. Period.

Feel free to keep on keeping on with the shaming because it isnt going to make me sit down and shut up like a good little girl - but that doesnt mean I am going to sit here, take your shit, and argue with you about something no one ever said or did either.


I guess maybe it's time for the transguys to start demonizing the butches now, huh weatherboi.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Parker

Man, you like to stir up some shit, walk away, then come back with some misplaced righteous indignation later, huh?

I refused to take your bait when you pulled this shit in the duplicity thread and I am not taking it now - Bulldog said something and I agreed because I have seen it - or rather, the lack of it - too. Period.

Feel free to keep on keeping on with the shaming because it isnt going to make me sit down and shut up like a good little girl - but that doesnt mean I am going to sit here, take your shit, and argue with you about something no one ever said or did either.


I guess maybe it's time for the transguys to start demonizing the butches now, huh weatherboi.

WOW Parker. I don't know you. But, this is just ugly. Why is someone a shit stirrer if they are expressing their feelings? Is it simply you do not agree with him? And if so, can't you just say that, without being ugly?

And why use the term "Good Girl?" Sounds a bit misogynistic to me? Why not just say - I am not going to sit down and be silent? Do only Good Girls keep their mouths shut - cause this Good Girl doesn't.

Julie

[Parker]

Should have used the mulit-quote feature, so I edited the multiple posts into one. Sorry about that.

Originally Posted by Julie

WOW Parker. I don't know you. But, this is just ugly. Why is someone a shit stirrer if they are expressing their feelings? Is it simply you do not agree with him? And if so, can't you just say that, without being ugly?

And why use the term "Good Girl?" Sounds a bit misogynistic to me? Why not just say - I am not going to sit down and be silent? Do only Good Girls keep their mouths shut - cause this Good Girl doesn't.

Julie

In this patriarchal world, yes, "good girls" are expected to keep their mouths shut - which is why I used the phrase, Julie; because it FELT misogynistic to be shamed and called out like that for words and behavior that simply werent there. I was hearing "sit down and shut up like a good little girl while the rest of us talk about this because your opinion doesnt matter."

And I am not going to apologize for calling out what I see as shit-stirring when I see it simply because you are now trying to shame me by calling me ugly. Using a sweeping generalization of "butches are demonizing transguys" was in my opinion, doing nothing but stirring shit because that wasnt what was happening.

I am not telling anyone here how to behave, I would sincerely appreciate the same in return.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Julie

What is not okay, is getting ugly and calling people names. Not okay and that needs to be called out. We all have various opinions on every subject. And personally, I think this is a beautiful thing.

I know Bully real time, as I know Weatherboi and a bunch of the other posters here. Just because we disagree with one another, does not mean we are attacking and does not mean we cannot all come together after our disagreements and share a meal.

Julie

Actually, Julie, I never called anyone any names; you however have called me ugly more than once for calling out what I saw as shit-stirring.

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Wow you get all this from me asking about blanket statements that butches were making about transguys in this thread?? What does the duplicity thread have anything to do with this?? I had an opinion over there and it makes me a shit stirrer and i have an opinion over here and it makes me a shit stirrer??? How so??? I never told anybody to sit down and be quiet or not have an opinion. Just because i voice a counter opinion to a member doesnt make me a shit stirrer. What bait are you talking about? i get you feel this is a correct assumption of your community. I get that you think transguys do less work here. I just don't agree with it. I voiced that. Period

You had more than "an opinion."

You accused butches of trying to "demonize transguys" and then tried to shame us with those accusations and some sweeping generalizations of your own.

The end.


ps - I didnt call you a shit stirrer, I said you were stirring shit. It might be splitting hairs, but I wanted to call out behavior or words you said, not call you names.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Parker

Should have used the mulit-quote feature, so I edited the multiple posts into one. Sorry about that.




In this patriarchal world, yes, "good girls" are expected to keep their mouths shut - which is why I used the phrase, Julie; because it FELT misogynistic to be shamed and called out like that for words and behavior that simply werent there. I was hearing "sit down and shut up like a good little girl while the rest of us talk about this because your opinion doesnt matter."

And I am not going to apologize for calling out what I see as shit-stirring when I see it simply because you are now trying to shame me by calling me ugly. Using a sweeping generalization of "butches are demonizing transguys" was in my opinion, doing nothing but stirring shit because that wasnt what was happening.

I am not telling anyone here how to behave, I would sincerely appreciate the same in return.

Thanks.




Actually, Julie, I never called anyone any names; you however have called me ugly more than once for calling out what I saw as shit-stirring.




You had more than "an opinion."

You accused butches of trying to "demonize transguys" and then tried to shame us with those accusations and some sweeping generalizations of your own.

The end.


ps - I didnt call you a shit stirrer, I said you were stirring shit. It might be splitting hairs, but I wanted to call out behavior or words you said, not call you names.

Parker -- I never called you UGLY. Believe me, you would know if I did. I said your posting was UGLY and it was.

I would not expect an apology from you... Anymore than I would think you would expect one from me. I feel your writings are condescending, ugly and rude. Just my opinion.


Julie

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Julie

Parker -- I never called you UGLY. Believe me, you would know if I did. I said your posting was UGLY and it was.

I would not expect an apology from you... Anymore than I would think you would expect one from me. I feel your writings are condescending, ugly and rude. Just my opinion.


Julie

And my opinion is that your posts towards me are the same. So at least we agree on that. lol



ps - it's really hard to argue with you because my sister's name is Julie and it feels like I am arguing with my sister.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Parker

And my opinion is that your posts towards me are the same. So at least we agree on that. lol



ps - it's really hard to argue with you because my sister's name is Julie and it feels like I am arguing with my sister.

Even better Parker. Siblings argue all the time.
My sister's name is Dana and she is not speaking to me - because we argue LOL.

Julie

[weatherboi]

I never said butches demonize transguys. I asked

"Wow are the butches gonna demonize the transguys?"

A viable question at the time considering all that was being said and what I feared might be said and where it was heading. I won't apologize for that.

It is against the TOS to drag drama from other threads and name call just in case people forgot or think it is important. I think it is important since it is me getting name called and having my own shit drug around from space to space and getting accused of shaming.

Thanks for listening!

[weatherboi]

Wow you get all this from me asking about blanket statements that butches were making about transguys in this thread?? What does the duplicity thread have anything to do with this?? I had an opinion over there and it makes me a shit stirrer and i have an opinion over here and it makes me a shit stirrer??? How so??? I never told anybody to sit down and be quiet or not have an opinion. Just because i voice a counter opinion to a member doesnt make me a shit stirrer. What bait are you talking about? i get you feel this is a correct assumption of your community. I get that you think transguys do less work here. I just don't agree with it. I voiced that. Period

Originally Posted by Parker

Man, you like to stir up some shit, walk away, then come back with some misplaced righteous indignation later, huh?

I refused to take your bait when you pulled this shit in the duplicity thread and I am not taking it now - Bulldog said something and I agreed because I have seen it - or rather, the lack of it - too. Period.

Feel free to keep on keeping on with the shaming because it isnt going to make me sit down and shut up like a good little girl - but that doesnt mean I am going to sit here, take your shit, and argue with you about something no one ever said or did either.


I guess maybe it's time for the transguys to start demonizing the butches now, huh weatherboi.

[aishah]

i have no idea what happened to this thread.

bulldog shared her perspective from her experience in butch/femme community that femmes often are the ones doing the research about partners in order to be more understanding, rather than ftms or butches. personally i found this insight extremely helpful because i recognize this pattern and i recognize myself in this pattern, but it's something i never stopped and thought about before. it also doesn't shock me, given how masculinity is centered in wider society. i don't see anything in bulldog's statement that tries to pit butches against transmen, or butches and transmen against femmes.

other folks have observed different things and maybe don't agree. not everyone has to agree.

i'm not sure what the hell happened. i don't by any means think that bulldog needs defending, but i did want to post publicly to say that i, for one, am grateful to both her and parker for speaking up on this thread. i have learned something valuable from it.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by aishah

i have no idea what happened to this thread.

bulldog shared her perspective from her experience in butch/femme community that femmes often are the ones doing the research about partners in order to be more understanding, rather than ftms or butches. personally i found this insight extremely helpful because i recognize this pattern and i recognize myself in this pattern, but it's something i never stopped and thought about before. it also doesn't shock me, given how masculinity is centered in wider society. i don't see anything in bulldog's statement that tries to pit butches against transmen, or butches and transmen against femmes.

other folks have observed different things and maybe don't agree. not everyone has to agree.

i'm not sure what the hell happened. i don't by any means think that bulldog needs defending, but i did want to post publicly to say that i, for one, am grateful to both her and parker for speaking up on this thread. i have learned something valuable from it.

Oh threads like this always get caught up like this. The point usually gets lost about 4 pages in.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by aishah

i have no idea what happened to this thread.
bulldog shared her perspective from her experience in butch/femme community that femmes often are the ones doing the research about partners in order to be more understanding, rather than ftms or butches. personally i found this insight extremely helpful because i recognize this pattern and i recognize myself in this pattern, but it's something i never stopped and thought about before. it also doesn't shock me, given how masculinity is centered in wider society. i don't see anything in bulldog's statement that tries to pit butches against transmen, or butches and transmen against femmes.

Agreed. In another forum I'm a member of they're currently having a discussion on how sexism works in the lesbian culture and the fact is, it does. Denying it is pointless. Masculine and feminine are treated very differently in this world.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by aishah

i have no idea what happened to this thread.

bulldog shared her perspective from her experience in butch/femme community that femmes often are the ones doing the research about partners in order to be more understanding, rather than ftms or butches. personally i found this insight extremely helpful because i recognize this pattern and i recognize myself in this pattern, but it's something i never stopped and thought about before. it also doesn't shock me, given how masculinity is centered in wider society. i don't see anything in bulldog's statement that tries to pit butches against transmen, or butches and transmen against femmes.

other folks have observed different things and maybe don't agree. not everyone has to agree.

i'm not sure what the hell happened. i don't by any means think that bulldog needs defending, but i did want to post publicly to say that i, for one, am grateful to both her and parker for speaking up on this thread. i have learned something valuable from it.

This is what happens in nearly all threads that discuss our community. Things go off track or get heated. It is often how we learn from one another and understand different perspectives.

It's what people do. They discuss and discuss and discuss.

What is not okay, is getting ugly and calling people names. Not okay and that needs to be called out. We all have various opinions on every subject. And personally, I think this is a beautiful thing.

I know Bully real time, as I know Weatherboi and a bunch of the other posters here. Just because we disagree with one another, does not mean we are attacking and does not mean we cannot all come together after our disagreements and share a meal.

Julie

[aishah]

i understand that threads get heated and off-topic, which is generally the point at which i choose step back publicly. however, i had sent a message to bulldog privately thanking her for her posts, and i didn't feel right about not voicing my support of what she said publicly when her words have clearly been misinterpreted.

[BullDog]

Thank you very much aishah. You do understand what I have been saying perfectly.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Julie

This is what happens in nearly all threads that discuss our community. Things go off track or get heated. It is often how we learn from one another and understand different perspectives.

It's what people do. They discuss and discuss and discuss.

What is not okay, is getting ugly and calling people names. Not okay and that needs to be called out. We all have various opinions on every subject. And personally, I think this is a beautiful thing.

I know Bully real time, as I know Weatherboi and a bunch of the other posters here. Just because we disagree with one another, does not mean we are attacking and does not mean we cannot all come together after our disagreements and share a meal.

Julie

Agreed Julie. We're not all going to have those kumbiya moments, but I'll tell ya' what..I got Bully's back and weatherboi's and Ebons and Parkers, and, and.
Family often don't see eye to eye, thing is we don't have to. That doesn't mean we don't get to have differing opinions, it means we are diverse, and that in my book is always a good thing.

[BullDog]

I think it is important when we do disagree to do so respectfully. I haven't accused anyone of demonizing or starting a butch vs trans war or making blanket statements. To me that is quite different than Julie and I or Corkey and I having a different point of view and discussing things respectfully.

I believe in any relationship both partners or prospective partners have equal responsibilities. I don't think stone butches or transmen or anyone else have any less responsibility or go through any more than anyone else does. Just because someone doesn't know much about stone butch doesn't mean there is more of a burden on her to learn more about me. We are both equally responsible to learn about and understand each other.