A straight girl enters the queer world...

[BullDog]

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

I don't think that is the case always BullDog. I think it gets talked about more, because the flip of Transwomen dating men isn't at issue on this site as much. I think everyone has the responsibility to be respectful of each other.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't think that is the case always BullDog. I think it gets talked about more, because the flip of Transwomen dating men isn't at issue on this site as much. I think everyone has the responsibility to be respectful of each other.

There are a lot of transmen here that date lesbian/queer femmes.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

There are a lot of transmen here that date lesbian/queer femmes.

Yes, and the point? If none of the Lesbians or Queer Femmes were attracted to FTM's, and visa versa then what would we have? Butches date Femmes, Ftm's date Femmes, Femmes date whom ever they wish. I would hazard a guess that FTM's date a whole gambit of the sexual spectrum, and so do Femmes.
We all have to get to know each other, and I guess I'm wondering why you said you rarely hear of Transmen having conversations about Femmes? Maybe you just aren't listening? Or it doesn't concern you? Or you just want to point out something that is eluding me.

[BullDog]

Corkey, see Deviant Daddy's post above. The amount of conversation that I have seen at online BF sites about femmes putting effort into understanding transmen has been much greater than the other way around. To me it seems quite lopsided. What partners discuss in private I would not be privy to.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Corkey, see Deviant Daddy's post above. The amount of conversation that I have seen at online BF sites about femmes putting effort into understanding transmen has been much greater than the other way around. To me it seems quite lopsided. What partners discuss in private I would not be privy to.

I see Femmes posting in FTM threads, and the Transmen responding to them, so while you may not see it I have to question the motive for your statement. Are you talking accommodations for who a person is or accommodations in the way a person touches another? I mean what is it you see that I don't?
I put a lot of effort into understanding another person, I don't attach a label to them.
I do see in those threads there is a marked aggressiveness in whom pursues whom, and therefore where the discussions get their direction. But it has nothing to do with FTM's not trying to get to know Femmes. I do think that FTM's get noticed more so because of the nonconformity, other than that, yea not so much. Humans behaving like humans.

[BullDog]

Corkey I am lost at this point as to what you are saying. I think we should leave it at our perceptions are very different.

[Chancie]

I don't get it. Why shouldn't a friend ask another friend for advice? I do that all the time. When Pete and I got together, I was way out of practice of being in a serious relationship, and I had plenty of concerns. I'm pretty comfortable with my communication skills, but there are times I want to think something thorough before I talk to Pete.

[DeviantDaddy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

I understand what you mean, in truth when I met kitten I was a bit lost on the subject and unable to find discussions on it. I actually had very long discussions with her when we first met. A learning experience for us both which was quite wonderful.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

You're not alone - I see this apparent lopsidedness as well.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Im confused


I thought this woman was straight?

Her dating this transman doesn't "automatically" queer her up, it's unfair at this point to say ALLL transguys are expecting this..

It's a big generalization.

[weatherboi]

Personally i think we could all do a little better understanding each other. I see and read a lot of female identified butches and male identified butches that could do some homework when it comes to understanding the things femmes go through when partnering with any of us. It is disheartening to me how many times i see this same scenario go down when threads like this get started. Butches vs Transguys when in realiity the female id'd butches and male id's butches arent any better with their understanding and support of femmes. It makes me sick!!!

BOOOOOOOO!!!!

[BullDog]

None of my posts have anything to do with butches vs transmen.
Have a good convo.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Personally i think we could all do a little better understanding each other. I see and read a lot of female identified butches and male identified butches that could do some homework when it comes to understanding the things femmes go through when partnering with any of us. It is disheartening to me how many times i see this same scenario go down when threads like this get started. Butches vs Transguys when in realiity the female id'd butches and male id's butches arent any better with their understanding and support of femmes. It makes me sick!!!

BOOOOOOOO!!!!

I think we all could understand that ID has nothing to do with how the heart responds to individuals. Humans have this thing called communication, perhaps communicating instead of being sick and shaming would go further. It isn't about Female id's vs Male id, and again I hate this. It has to do with facts. Just because a Butch expressed her opinion doesn't make it fact. Homework could be done by all.

[aishah]

i feel that the conversation on visibility is a bit off topic but relevant, and i can see both sides of it. for me, it isn't a huge deal, because i've always felt a lack of visibility regardless of who i've dated - so my feelings on invisibility are detached from my partner's id. i have a lot of complicated and difficult and upsetting emotions about invisibility. i hate being invisible. but i don't need or expect my relationship to make me visible (no queer relationship i've ever had has really made me more visible). i also don't think that stealth personally or in a relationship is a bad thing. i understand for some people their relationship is very much tied to their visibility. so i can see how those feelings might come up for them in their relationship.

for me i always id as a queer femme regardless of the gender and sexual orientation of the person i'm dating. my partner has talked about his feelings around struggling with wanting to be stealth and id as heterosexual but at the same time feeling more a sense of home in the queer community and in some ways id'ing as queer, though he is only attracted to femme women.

[Quintease]

I hate being invisible in the gay scene. I fought hard to be recognised as a lesbian, especially in my early years when lesbians would look at my long hair in distrust. Part of loving my husband was letting go of my need to be 'visible' and that hurt. Luckily he's still happy to be queer in queer spaces.

I don't have the same concerns with straight people or my family, they can think what they like. My husband is a man and my lesbian life is irrelevant when I'm with him, he's my heterosexual future.

[weatherboi]

First off i just wanna say that i consider Bully my friend and shaming her would never be my intention. Her and i have had good times in real time and am sure we will have more in the future. Our opinions, feelings, and thoughts on this website do not encompass all that we are as individuals and I hope our friendship can reflect that.


Hey Corkey-

Injecting your reaction is ok but I wasn't shaming anybody although if people take that feeling away from what i posted then maybe they should look further into what they stated or agreed with in the first place. I also said in my first sentence that we could all use a little more understanding of each other so your redundancy of it makes no sense to me and maybe you can clarify that? Bully and Parker both came into this thread stating and supporting sweeping sentiments about how transguys/ftms don't do as much work when in reality they don't know this. Facts are important and when they don't offer any up after posting around this generalization more than twice i am gonna say something. It would be a diservice to myself if i didn't and i am not gonna sit quiet when someone wants to finger wag at me. You can do it but it isn't gonna make me stay silent about my thoughts on any subject.


IMO-The shaming stuff is starting to sound like the bullying stuff is starting to sound like the gang mentality clique stuff. A big deflection on taking responsibility for our own reactions and feelings/opinions/posts. It is ridiculous and that is my opinion, and perfectly ok for me to feel this way. It gets old and i am not gonna let it silence me. I am allowed to have a counter opinion, so are you, and so is everybody else. Calling each other bad communicators or absentee communicators is another deflection cruising towards policing how people post. I often wonder if maybe when we use this tactic if we aren't making assumptions as to how people are posting and the space they are posting from.

Originally Posted by Corkey

I think we all could understand that ID has nothing to do with how the heart responds to individuals. Humans have this thing called communication, perhaps communicating instead of being sick and shaming would go further. It isn't about Female id's vs Male id, and again I hate this. It has to do with facts. Just because a Butch expressed her opinion doesn't make it fact. Homework could be done by all.

[BullDog]

No I haven't made sweeping statements or generalizations. My statements are based on what I have and haven't read on bf forums for over 10 years. I have seen lots and lots of conversations by femmes trying to understand transmen and their struggles. I have seen very little about transmen educating themselves about lesbians/queer femmes, talking about needing to join support groups, how their id changes based on who they date etc.

There was an transman who just yesterday said he tried to find such conversation when he was dealing with some issues and couldn't find any.

If I have somehow missed all of these types of fascinating conversations over the years feel free to provide links so I can read them.

I also stated at least 2 or 3 times that private conversations between couples could be different.

None of my posts had anything to do with butch vs transmen. None whatsoever. Some issues will be the same, some will be different in terms of dating a transman or dating a butch.

I am out. I have real life in the real world to enjoy.

[Martina]

If i were a straight girl involved with a transman, i might not want to do much research. But i would expect to want to know everything that is important about the individual man i was with. i don't think one needs to get a degree in gender studies to date a transperson. But if she is so anxious that she is needing to talk about it all the time, then some research would probably help.

i have in the past been stunned at the extent that some woman who ID as SOFFA have taken that identity. If someone told me that i had to adopt that ID in order to date a transman, i would be outta there fast.

That one's ID is as a significant OTHER, that that is cultivated and studied and developed as an identity beyond a description of one's life or sexual orientation has always been something i KNEW i could never do.

(This may no longer be the case, but back in the day, there were professional SOFFA's out there. They knew more about transitioning than they guys did, were activists, wrote newsletters, got gender studies degrees, etc.) All fine. Their choice, but they stood up in groups as the model or ideal of SOFFA'ness. i have attended meetings and events with such examplars, and at that time, i was sometimes dating transmen. It was just so not me -- that version of SOFFA. i could not even grasp it. And i really wondered what young women new to these groups were thinking they had to do and be in order to stay with their partner.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

First off i just wanna say that i consider Bully my friend and shaming her would never be my intention. Her and i have had good times in real time and am sure we will have more in the future. Our opinions, feelings, and thoughts on this website do not encompass all that we are as individuals and I hope our friendship can reflect that.


Hey Corkey-

Injecting your reaction is ok but I wasn't shaming anybody although if people take that feeling away from what i posted then maybe they should look further into what they stated or agreed with in the first place. I also said in my first sentence that we could all use a little more understanding of each other so your redundancy of it makes no sense to me and maybe you can clarify that? Bully and Parker both came into this thread stating and supporting sweeping sentiments about how transguys/ftms don't do as much work when in reality they don't know this. Facts are important and when they don't offer any up after posting around this generalization more than twice i am gonna say something. It would be a diservice to myself if i didn't and i am not gonna sit quiet when someone wants to finger wag at me. You can do it but it isn't gonna make me stay silent about my thoughts on any subject.


IMO-The shaming stuff is starting to sound like the bullying stuff is starting to sound like the gang mentality clique stuff. A big deflection on taking responsibility for our own reactions and feelings/opinions/posts. It is ridiculous and that is my opinion, and perfectly ok for me to feel this way. It gets old and i am not gonna let it silence me. I am allowed to have a counter opinion, so are you, and so is everybody else. Calling each other bad communicators or absentee communicators is another deflection cruising towards policing how people post. I often wonder if maybe when we use this tactic if we aren't making assumptions as to how people are posting and the space they are posting from.

Your statement was shaming, good thing I have thick skin. BullDog and I may not always agree, but at least I ask for clarification from her. I don't let folks silence me either, and I'm rather blunt about it.

BullDog, you did make a blanket statement and you clarified your position. That works for me. I'm still gonna call you on blanket statements but that's how I work. I expect you to do the same for me.

As for me and mine, we talk about lots of things, most things have nothing to do with our identification. As a married couple we accommodate each other we get along just fine. *You* all probably never come into the conversations we have, but yep we have them. And if you are a friend of mine you would know how much I fight against the patriarchy.

Back to the subject. No the woman's id doesn't change when she becomes involved with any of the lgbt community. She is still a straight female. I do think those two need to have this discussion amongst themselves, as neither of them are here and we know next to nothing about them.My .02