A straight girl enters the queer world...

[apretty]

i had no problem understanding Bulldog's post--the words are fine and given the context, the meaning is clearer than half the posts in this thread.

on-topic, a lot of the discussion seems super invested in what someone else's relationship looks like when really, if it doesn't work out, it's just wasn't a match.

to be clear, the working-out will never hinge on her doing more trans-stuff homework. i mean really, where's the thread where we ring our hands over the man not doing his femme-stuff homework?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by apretty

to be clear, the working-out will never hinge on her doing more trans-stuff homework. i mean really, where's the thread where we ring our hands over the man not doing his femme-stuff homework?

Precisely. I rarely- if ever- see it. I haven't for over 10 years.

When I started reading this thread I saw it going down the path of so many others I have seen over the years and who was expected to do what. That is what prompted me. If you (the general you) think I am out of turn to talk about then fine, you can think that about me.

[DaddysKitten]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I read that underlined text to mean disinterest on first read. I knew Bully did not really think that so I re-read it and re-read it and still had a hard time understanding what Bully meant. I chalked it up to poor sentence structure because I know that disinterest is not what Bully meant....been reading her too many years to think that....

it's all good in the 'hood.....

As I stated exactly myself, and I do not know her well enough to read her that way. It's why I addressed it respectfully, and pointed out where the miscommunication would come from.

[weatherboi]

So what if there are not as many threads about transguys wringing their hands over this. It doesn't equate to transguys here not doing their work or that we are doing it wrong.

[Corkey]

I think it's awfully telling that our mates are the only ones that should be telling us if we're doing it wrong, and I just don't see that happening. Because frankly hers is the only opinion that matters to me.

[DaddysKitten]

I quoted the wrong part of the quote, lol


I have to disagree, coming from someone who was in this exact predicament myself, many years ago. We see straight couples, every day from birth, just about. We see straight couples on TV. We see straight couples at the grocery store. It's something we are surrounded with every day of our lives, especially if we step outside.

We understand how it works, we understand the underlying issues they are faced. It definitely makes it easier from that standpoint, to learn directly about the person, and not the daily struggles they find themselves facing, especially if they do not 'appear' to the basic concensus as hetero-cis-gendered-straight people. And yes, every relationship faces this.

But what a straight cis-gendered person may never see, or know they see, is a transman or transwoman, and definitely not enough to even begin to understand their day to day life. Much less the deeper fundamentals that make them the individual they are, or how they came to this understanding of themselves.

Even being raised by both my parents, til age 11, and then by my lesbian mother from then on, I had almost next to no understanding, or even knowledge of transgenders. Hell, it took me years to understand that my mother and her lover were lovers. Not everyone is worldly knowledgable of such things. Hell, I thought I could be pregnant when I was kissed at 14. So what a lot of people consider 'common knowledge' especially, as Chancie stated as well.

So we can love someone, but can you truly appreciate someone for all they are, if you lack the basic understanding, as stated with a 'trans' person. Someone who has struggled, more often than not with what is considered 'normal', even amongst their own lesbian/gay/queer brethren. I don't believe this is just 'ok, I'm trans, I love you, that's all you need to know'.

Many have been assaulted for who they are, many have even been killed for who they are. Many have been insulted and put down for their entire lives, many have fought tooth and nail for their rights, and still do. Many have spent countless nights in tears, sobbing, over the confusion, insult, looks, and whatever else they face day to day.

I couldn't say I loved someone, and truly so if I did not wish to know what the person, and others alike, have faced. I would simply lack the understanding, and with a lack of understanding comes a lack of ability to tend the one you love.

I remember, being new to my relationship. I remember the swift inhale of his breath when I would say something out of my ignorance for it all, and though he was so loving and patient, it killed me to make those innocent mistakes because it did bother him. And I never wanted to see him unhappy, or even tinged with a tightening of 'she did that thing'.

So yes, we spent countless hours talking to each other, countless hours of him lecturing me like some college professor who had a very intrigued pupil. I remember the night he told me that he had been jumped by men who had said 'wanna be a man! Fine, we'll teach you how to be a man!' I lay there in bed on the phone, hearing his story, and sobbed silently.

How could they? Why would they? I remember reading his blog post about pumping gas, and how a couple men sat by their work truck laughing and pointing at him. I was infuriated, I wanted to be there to yell at them 'what the fuck are you looking at!?' and then climb all over him and make them envy the person they saw as some freak.

Can we truly not understand these daily struggles, that our lovers face, and support them in all ways in who they are? Do we just expect them to come out and say 'oh yea, by the way, if anyone ever comes to assault me for being who I am, just run'?

I wish communication in a new relationship was that easy. But the non-fairy tale fact of it is, that it is not. Many would see shame in that, many would be afraid the person they love would run. Or be scared to be out in public with them because of these fears.

If I am with someone who has a certain disease, I research it. If I am with someone who has a special needs child, I research it. If I am with someone who has a particular kink, or fancy, I research it. It allowed me to know the questions to ask. As with my relationship, before I was educated enough to really grasp a thorough understanding of it, I didn't have a clue.

But when I went to Daddy and asked him, this and that, and everything else I had read up on, and asked him to clarify, he told me that I took more interest in understanding his issues than any of the women he had ever dealt with before who did live this life, for the majority of their time on this earth, in alternate lifestyles, and even they did not grasp the things I wanted to grasp, and sought the information for, to grasp.

So no, you don't treat someone like a freak or a lab rat because you want to understand their ideals on a variety of things. It's major major interest in knowing everything an individual faces. I know about the straight cis-world. I lived it my entire life. This was new to me, and I wanted to absorb all I could, to better serve him as my partner, my lover, someone I wanted to know every little detail of.

[Mike]

just to be clear, i have posted in many threads that i think the trans guy should do his homeowrk on himself and his partner. Shes in a transition period too. I have said many times, thst i think the trans guys need that time alone, to find themm self. I think one of my post years ago my words rang as something like this, far to often i see where the partner of ftms are doing all the home work, they know when and where the next appointment is, what his T dose is and so on. better than he does.

I am not saying some guys dont do it differently, and hoepfully its changed some, but it use to be far to many depending on the partner to do all the figuring out if you will. I do think the partner needs to ask the questions, noone is a mind reader. but she needs to take care of herself in the same respect.

[DeviantDaddy]

Originally Posted by DaddysKitten

But when I went to Daddy and asked him, this and that, and everything else I had read up on, and asked him to clarify, he told me that I took more interest in understanding his issues than any of the women he had ever dealt with before who did live this life, for the majority of their time on this earth, in alternate lifestyles, and even they did not grasp the things I wanted to grasp, and sought the information for, to grasp.

So no, you don't treat someone like a freak or a lab rat because you want to understand their ideals on a variety of things. It's major major interest in knowing everything an individual faces. I know about the straight cis-world. I lived it my entire life. This was new to me, and I wanted to absorb all I could, to better serve him as my partner, my lover, someone I wanted to know every little detail of.

One, of the many reasons, why I treasure you.


As for the debate in regards to transmen researching their heterosexual partners... I can understand the need for many of us who identify as TG to want to know more about their new lady. Of course I took it upon myself to take the time to know exactly how our relationship was effecting, kitten. But in all truth, it is very likely that the reason for there being few posts about such a thing is because straight women are something we grow up with. No matter your home/family specifics, you will be surrounded at school, work, stores, groups, etc.

[DaddysKitten]

We are not talking about a 'femme', we are talking about a woman who is a cis-gendered female straight girl. Not a femme, who has already identified with something outside of what is cis-normal. Assuming she is a femme, since this is the constant talk about where the trans-man should focus his studies on, pushes this straight girl into a category of acknowledging and understanding some sort of queer lifestyle she is accustomed to. She is not. In fact, she doesn't even know what a 'femme' is. This is a straight girl.

I feel like, when you refer to her as a femme, you are IDing her, and she has not gotten anywhere near that point in her exploration to identify with it, and also states, in some manner a base knowledge of what this encompasses. But this is base knowledge she has yet to develop.

Am I disagreeing, that he should understand femmes better. Well no, but to me, it's like saying men need to study women, and women need to study men. It's kind of... common sense that in order to be with anyone, you need to understand their basic fundamentals. But no one ever knows everything about anyone, no matter their ID or orientation.

He has been around cis-gendered straight women all of his life, he needs to learn her and understand her. But that is a given in any relationship of any capacity. Please refer to my previous post before this one, to understand where I am coming from with the importance of such.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by DaddysKitten

We are not talking about a 'femme', we are talking about a woman who is a cis-gendered female straight girl. Not a femme, who has already identified with something outside of what is cis-normal. Assuming she is a femme, since this is the constant talk about where the trans-man should focus his studies on, pushes this straight girl into a category of acknowledging and understanding some sort of queer lifestyle she is accustomed to. She is not. In fact, she doesn't even know what a 'femme' is. This is a straight girl.

I feel like, when you refer to her as a femme, you are IDing her, and she has not gotten anywhere near that point in her exploration to identify with it, and also states, in some manner a base knowledge of what this encompasses. But this is base knowledge she has yet to develop.

Am I disagreeing, that he should understand femmes better. Well no, but to me, it's like saying men need to study women, and women need to study men. It's kind of... common sense that in order to be with anyone, you need to understand their basic fundamentals. But no one ever knows everything about anyone, no matter their ID or orientation.

He has been around cis-gendered straight women all of his life, he needs to learn her and understand her. But that is a given in any relationship of any capacity. Please refer to my previous post before this one, to understand where I am coming from with the importance of such.

I get that you dont think she calls herself a femme, but i disagree in the fact that cis women, dont know what femme is or girly girly even. I have spend most of my life in the str8* world dated a string of str8* women, in a 17 year relationship with one. Never had a one question who they where when dating me. I could just be wrong or lucky and all that but i dont think its matters to them what anyone ids as. They just know they fell in love and its what it is. I am trying to recall if any of them used the word Femme, i do know some of them used girly girl.

[DaddysKitten]

Originally Posted by Mike

I get that you dont think she calls herself a femme, but i disagree in the fact that cis women, dont know what femme is or girly girly even. I have spend most of my life in the str8* world dated a string of str8* women, in a 17 year relationship with one. Never had a one question who they where when dating me. I could just be wrong or lucky and all that but i dont think its matters to them what anyone ids as. They just know they fell in love and its what it is. I am trying to recall if any of them used the word Femme, i do know they used girly girl.

Actually, she called her transman a femme, she thought it simply meant female. So no, she does not. The blush was actually kinda funny when I told her that was not the case.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by DaddysKitten

Actually, she called her transman a femme, she thought it simply meant female. So no, she does not. The blush was actually kinda funny when I told her that was not the case.

OHHHHHHHHHHHH Can we just slide her a dictonary with all the kewl words higlighted?

[Mike]

Originally Posted by June

I read Bulldog as saying that both should do the work too, so I was kinda surprised that this whole thing went South (not really!)

I also think (not new for me to express this opinion) that we, in the broader spectrum, by which I mean "not all" tend to be a bit masculine-centric in this community. Deferring to, expecting to be deferred to (Not All Butches & Men here). But it happens, and to pretend otherwise could be a little crazy making.

I don't like to see any of us put under the umbrella of "All good/All bad" because it just doesn't fit. So many really good Femme's (even the bossy ones!), Butches (regardless of pro-nouns) and Men (Straight or Queer).

I also got when Parker used the term "good girl and sit down" because I know that Parker is Female ID'd. She was using a term I myself have used. I found it refreshing that a Butch used that phrase, but before you get all puffed up and shit, I didn't agree with your entire ideology or technique. That's okay, mine sucks sometimes too.

As a member here (as in, me, June) I am not too comfortable when folks come on the forums and right away start talking about "This friend of mine" or "OMG, my girlfriend left me and I am going to ask a bunch of complete strangers what I should do about it".

With that said, Welcome to the Planet, DK & DD. Regardless how you identify, the foundation of this forum (Butch/Femme) must resonate with both of you or you wouldn't be here

--June

PS - The Moderator part of me loved seeing this thread mostly pull out of a nosedive, and hopes that will continue.

June, get outta my head

[MissItalianDiva]

I read this thread when it was first posted but resisted the urge to put in my two sense and now have just read the rest (wishing I had not) and now have a headache.

Here is my two sense. Honestly I don't see why this is posted here. Frankly I would be a bit offended if I was your friend and you had posted my business on a forum without my knowledge. Sure it was done anonymously but the principle behind this would be an issue for me.

Secondly I really don't see why this is something you are concerning yourself with. It is their life and their relationship. What they choose to do or not do is theirs alone. If love is enough if even in the moment well then so be it. Life is a learning experience and sometimes just living in the moment is the best thing to do and when it isn't then it blows up in our face and we learn a life lesson...hopefully. Let them find what works or isn't working for them. I think sometimes we want to play protector or educator to folks who are going through something we have encountered previously because it may have ended bad for us or someone we know but sometimes it just needs to take it's own natural direction.

[Quintease]

I think it's been really interesting.

There isn't a lot of help out there for a girl dating a transman regardless of her ID. My husband and I have come up against a lot of weird reactions, from lesbians who think I should leave the lesbian community to straight people who think I have no 'right' to call myself gay. At least I have the benefit of 17 years of queer culture. Aside from a willingness to fall in love, what does this girl have? The least she should expect is that her friends are able to offer her advice from an educated place.

There should be more discussions like this.

[DaddysKitten]

Originally Posted by MissItalianDiva

Secondly I really don't see why this is something you are concerning yourself with. It is their life and their relationship. What they choose to do or not do is theirs alone. If love is enough if even in the moment well then so be it. Life is a learning experience and sometimes just living in the moment is the best thing to do and when it isn't then it blows up in our face and we learn a life lesson...hopefully. Let them find what works or isn't working for them. I think sometimes we want to play protector or educator to folks who are going through something we have encountered previously because it may have ended bad for us or someone we know but sometimes it just needs to take it's own natural direction.

As I have stated multiple times before, she has come to me for a shoulder, help, and advice in all of this, and I feel as if I have reached a point where I am not well versed enough in everything to help her with such. As for the posting on a public forum, I appreciate your opinion, but it was a choice I made, along with my Daddy, and I stand behind that fully. My intentions were not cruel, or even drama based, therefor it was positive, even if not everyone agrees.

Originally Posted by Quintease

I think it's been really interesting.

There isn't a lot of help out there for a girl dating a transman regardless of her ID. My husband and I have come up against a lot of weird reactions, from lesbians who think I should leave the lesbian community to straight people who think I have no 'right' to call myself gay. At least I have the benefit of 17 years of queer culture. Aside from a willingness to fall in love, what does this girl have? The least she should expect is that her friends are able to offer her advice from an educated place.

There should be more discussions like this.

I completely agree, and as I have stated, it is why I am here, whether everyone agrees on the honorable notion of such, or not. I am finding myself unable to give her what she needs as a friend, and that is more knowledge and understanding, and I am reaching out to people who would not be able to judge her, versus the cis-gendered straight family and friends she is turning to, who are judging the both of them, and adding even more hellstone to the flames. Even if she never bothers to read the post, which she has been given the information to direct herself to it, there is someone out there who may learn something from the discussion.

Having been in this position myself, I found the forums very very helpful in learning and understanding things, I did not know before hand.

[DeviantDaddy]

Originally Posted by MissItalianDiva

Secondly I really don't see why this is something you are concerning yourself with. It is their life and their relationship. What they choose to do or not do is theirs alone. If love is enough if even in the moment well then so be it. Life is a learning experience and sometimes just living in the moment is the best thing to do and when it isn't then it blows up in our face and we learn a life lesson...hopefully. Let them find what works or isn't working for them. I think sometimes we want to play protector or educator to folks who are going through something we have encountered previously because it may have ended bad for us or someone we know but sometimes it just needs to take it's own natural direction.

That is actually a simple answer: we are interested in offering her different venues of informing herself on the subject. She and I have been friends for years and I care for her. Perhaps our meaning of friendship differs, Diva. When a close friend finds herself confused and reaches out to me, I will be there. Certainly there is a limit to things. I can only offer her an ear and different insights - but what she does with it, in and out of their relationship, is her decision. I can only provide her with training wheels, the rest is on her.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I think it's been really interesting.

There isn't a lot of help out there for a girl dating a transman regardless of her ID. My husband and I have come up against a lot of weird reactions, from lesbians who think I should leave the lesbian community to straight people who think I have no 'right' to call myself gay. At least I have the benefit of 17 years of queer culture. Aside from a willingness to fall in love, what does this girl have? The least she should expect is that her friends are able to offer her advice from an educated place.

There should be more discussions like this.

I have also found it very interesting. I have also found a lot of transphobia directed at both me and my husband including from friends who now view me as having crossed over to the dark side of heterosexuality or view Rufus and all ftms as somehow betraying women or the queer community. I think having been in the queer community for many years, knowing many trans identified people, ftms, mtfs over the years made Rufus' transition smooth for me. The straight woman who is the subject of this thread didn't have any of that. I think her friends kitten and Deviant Daddy are trying to help her and I commend them for that. I think a lot of partners of ftms may end up feeling isolated especially if they get negative reactions from friends and family. The fact is that partners do go through a transition period too, especially if the transition happens during a relationship.

Melissa

[Softhearted]

From what I gather from the informations provided by the OP, her friend is attracted or wants to get involved with someone who seems to have his own personal issues not clarified or staighten out.

Regardless of one's sex, gender, ID, sexual orientation, etc... the main question I would ask myself is: Is the person with many unclarified thoughts about their own person even "available" to get involved into a romantic relationship?

just my .02 cents

[Julie]

Originally Posted by DaddysKitten

As I have stated multiple times before, she has come to me for a shoulder, help, and advice in all of this, and I feel as if I have reached a point where I am not well versed enough in everything to help her with such. As for the posting on a public forum, I appreciate your opinion, but it was a choice I made, along with my Daddy, and I stand behind that fully. My intentions were not cruel, or even drama based, therefor it was positive, even if not everyone agrees.

You are obviously a good friend and someone she trusts. You came to your community where you could possibly get some insight. There is nothing wrong with that. You did not give names (that I recall) or personal information about this couple.

I hope your friends is able to figure this out for herself and her partner (future). She sounds like an open minded individual who is looking outside the box and stepping outside of her comfort zone. Good for her.

Julie