What makes a Butch "Butch"

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Dude

Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone

I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post!

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post!

crap, I did not mean to come off insensitive and do get that it must sometimes be hard for femme's too. sorry

vegas?
bloody hell! I should have moved to your table
One butch and three ftm's were friendly to me the entire time.
I will have a soft spot in my heart for them, forever.
I could make a movie spoof of the worst prom nightmare ever. ?
Of course, it may have been the company I was keeping or not anywhere's close to keeping, too. snort
Threats come in all ages
It's a shame, people think the worst of each other without knowing them.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Dude

crap, I did not mean to come off insensitive and do get that it must sometimes be hard for femme's too. sorry

vegas?
bloody hell! I should have moved to your table
One butch and three ftm's were friendly to me the entire time.
I will have a soft spot in my heart for them, forever.
I could make a movie spoof of the worst prom nightmare ever. ?
Of course, it may have been the company I was keeping or not anywhere's close to keeping, too. snort
Threats come in all ages
It's a shame, people think the worst of each other without knowing them.

I did not mean to sound like you were being insensitive , just wanted you to know its hard for all of us.

Nah, I was cool in Vegas, I had a date. New Orleans was really rough though. We've all come a lonnnng way since then. The Reunions are wayy more friendly on all fronts.

[Deborah]

I agree with this Apocalipstic - it's always been hard for me to have femme friends even in the straight world...and I am sure I was partly responsible for that...at this point in my life and this stage of the game I don't take all that stuff so seriously or myself for that matter and I find it much easier to know who is real and who isn't and I love my femme friends....sadly right now most all of them live in Tennessee <3

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post!

[Dude]

first off ,to me ,straight women are Not femme's

secondly this is a butch thread , not a man thread

and that's all I'm gonna say ( I think )

[Toughy]

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Toughy

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I really, really like this thread because of this post, and the vast majority of the other posts in this thread that say similar things. Many butch posters have gone to great lengths to say in ways both simple and complex that their female bodies carry their butch-i-tude. That being butch is, for them, masculine energy in a woman's body. That being butch means simply being themselves.

That's super cool. (And super hot.) What's not cool is that so many butches have been made to feel defensive about being both butch and a woman. I wish it were not so. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make all the bs disappear. Unfortunately, the only thing I can do is continually offer my unquestioning support. You're all perfect and beautiful exactly the way you are.

[Reader]

Originally Posted by Toughy

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I really, really like this thread because of this post, and the vast majority of the other posts in this thread that say similar things. Many butch posters have gone to great lengths to say in ways both simple and complex that their female bodies carry their butch-i-tude. That being butch is, for them, masculine energy in a woman's body. That being butch means simply being themselves.

That's super cool. (And super hot.) What's not cool is that so many butches have been made to feel defensive about being both butch and a woman. I wish it were not so. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make all the bs disappear. Unfortunately, the only thing I can do is continually offer my unquestioning support. You're all perfect and beautiful exactly the way you are.

What great posts. Thanks for posting these sentiments so well Toughy and Cheryl.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Toughy

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I guess that happens because some butches identify as male. And male seems to overpower and sometimes erase female. So it feels as though we are put on the defensive. And often we do have to be on the defensive because the female part of female masculinity gets lost in male posturing and bravado.

Yet the reality is that some butches don’t identify as women and some don’t even identify as female. Personally I believe butch is a default female or woman identity. It is about butch masculinity carried in a female body. It is most definitely for me about queering masculinity in a female body. And there certainly is a difference between masculine and male/man. Yet there are butches who identify as male or man. I just don’t see this as having to do with a butch identity. To me it is another identifier used in conjunction with but not a requisite part of being butch. Yet it is a part of that butch.

I remember being told growing up that my actions were not the actions of a woman. I was told that little girls didn’t act in whatever way I was acting. I finally explained that this couldn’t be true because I was in fact a girl and I was doing whatever it was I was doing so consequently girls did indeed do it. I remember how that felt when someone tried to take female from me. I am a butch but I am also a woman. Anyway knowing how that felt, I wouldn’t tell anyone else who they can be or that any action or identity takes away another. I could never say butches cannot be male or man. I just don’t think that being male or man is connected to their butchness.

Butch does not equal male or man. Man is not butch taken to its logical conclusion. Neither is male. Butch is about female masculinity or masculinity queered. But masculinity can be queered without a female identity and I don't think that erases butch. Perhaps then it is not exactly female masculinity but it is queered masculinity. And that is not your straight man’s masculinity. It is quite a different animal indeed.

[Corkey]

I am Butch and TG and male and not woman, but female bodied. My identity does not put me anywhere on a spectrum, it puts me in a circle, for I AM HUMAN.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I am Butch and TG and male and not woman, but female bodied. My identity does not put me anywhere on a spectrum, it puts me in a circle, for I AM HUMAN.

First and fucking foremost human. I agree brother Corkey!

[Cin]

Reading the last page or so of this thread made me think of the last time I wore a dress. It was at my father’s funeral. I hadn’t worn anything of the kind for many years before that. I did it to make a statement. I did it as a kind of tribute to my dad. Yet, my father would have been the last person to give a fat rat’s ass what I wore.

He was always very okay with the way I dressed and pretty much with me in general. It was because of him that I had any boy toys at all to play with growing up. He always defended me to my mother. My poor mother could never get her head around my behavior. She really couldn’t get it. She would glance my way with a puzzled expression as I rode the ends of the couch up to the saloon, swaggered in and put a crayon or a piece of dry spaghetti in my mouth as a stand in for a cigarette and drank water out of shot glasses while I played cards and got in fights. These fights consisted of punching myself and throwing myself around the room and wrestling with myself on the ground until I beat the shit out the bad guys.

Then my sister was born. She was very feminine and loved to wear my mother’s high heels and put stuff on her head and play wedding. She wore tiaras and loved being the princess. My mother was so pleased. Fast forward fifteen years and she was completely flummoxed when she brought her butch girlfriend home for a visit.

My dad seemed to be okay with whoever his kids were. When I was little he always tried to make peace in the home while not squashing who I was. When I wanted to wear my guns to church instead of freaking out about how girls shouldn’t be playing with guns like my mom did, he would explain how guns, even toy ones, didn’t belong in church. When I complained about how I had to dress to go to Mass, he would tell me how lots of real bad asses wore long coats. All the better to hide stuff in and besides he would say, it just looked cool. He taught me to fight and he was proud of how good I was at it. Keep your hands up he would say as he smacked me in the mouth to emphasize the importance. He would tell his friends what a good fighter I was. He also taught me to fish, hunt with a bow and arrow and shoot a gun. Not to mention how to throw a football, hit a baseball and pitch a wicked curve. Put some English on it he would say to me. He taught me to swim and dive and always told me I could do anything I wanted to do.

He was quite a dapper dresser. He never considered certain colors off limits. When I think of my dad I often see him in a pink shirt with a pink and purple striped tie, a very cool handkerchief in his jacket pocket and a fedora on his head. I loved to dress in his clothes as a kid.

So when I decided to wear a dress to his funeral it was a surprise to me. I don’t know why it felt right, but it did. It was something I did for him even though he never would have asked me to or even really cared if I did or not, except in that it would please my mother. So the reason I wore a dress was not to make my mother happy even though it did, it was because my mother’s happiness was important to my father and also because throughout my life he tried so hard to keep peace between us. It was for him, especially because he wouldn’t care and he wouldn’t ask.

I don't imagine I will ever do it again. Even reading this sounds like I think wearing a dress is some kind of immense sacrifice. LOL, I guess it is. It feels like it compromises who I am. It feels like I am participating in my own oppression. I'm speaking just for myself here. If you're butch and you like dresses, I mean like them on you, that's cool. I don't feel good about wearing stuff like that. It's wrapped up in all kinds of baggage for me.

[Jett]

I have long hair and painted black nails... two coats and nice top coat, I also wear make-up with my t- and jeans or hoodies or more "female" clothing... nope I don't do dresses or even flowers, frilly or cutesy but just because it's not my style but I like my hips and tits... and my deep voice. I am a very strong, protective, loving, kind and bad azz female likes to get dirty (sometimes not) and who wants a good life for me and mine.

This is who I am... what does it mean beyond that about my sex or gender? Nothing. It doesn't speak for who I am. My heart and soul does that. I do admit, these days at first glance I could probably be mistaken for a femme or straight more than pegged queer or butch, somedays not, but the proof is in the pudding... dark intense chocolate w/ sprinkles on top in my case... xD

I will add that I don't like to "identify" w/ a single word... so I don't... but here (b/f spaces) is where I find myself again and again because the dynamic draws me... it is natural to me.

No rules,
Jett

[Mr. Cynthia]

Originally Posted by Toughy

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I think you're quite clear, Toughy.

I was born butch but I didn't really want to be male. I wanted to be a female who could wear what she wants, cut her hair like she wants, work and play like she wants and love the kind of women she wants. Society makes the cognitive leap from all that to "oh, she wants to be a man."

I ID as a bulldyke because the term connotes "lesbian" (which includes "woman" by default) and "butch" all in one tidy little word that just rolls off my tongue...especially in the presence of earnest straight people trying really hard to be cool

[Corkey]

From my perspective, perhaps its time we dropped the linear and embraced the circular. I know I'd be happy to do so.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Dude

first off ,to me ,straight women are Not femme's

secondly this is a butch thread , not a man thread

and that's all I'm gonna say ( I think )

I quess you get to say what people can and cannot say ....It's not a femme thread either but you had a lot to say about them ..But I see it's what ever YOU chose it to be ...

[Dude]

yup , I'm the ruler of the thread

what I wrote WAS ==> to me (for me, my opinion, etc.)

no show here, folks

the end

put me on ignore , if I bother you so fucking much

[Glenn]

Originally Posted by Dude

yup , I'm the ruler of the thread

I said ==> to me

no show here, folks

the end

put me on ignore , if I bother you so fucking much

Uh..that would put you in default Dude.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Dude

yup , I'm the ruler of the thread

what I wrote WAS ==> to me (for me, my opinion, etc.)

no show here, folks

the end

put me on ignore , if I bother you so fucking much

LOL .......You don't bother Me at all . I find you very funny !
Carry on oh mighty ruler !

[~ocean]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Vive la difference'~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ocean