What makes a Butch "Butch"

[Dude]

For me, reading ten pages of posts about how "IT" is oozing
from "our" every pore really doesn't feel all that supportive.
Do femme's ooze out of every pore and if they do are they also helpless?
<cringe> I really hate the stereotyping. ALL of it.
Knight in shining armor bs saving the damsel in distress fantasy?
really?
Can we stop with the harlequin stuff ,one day? please?! snort!


Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone

I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Dude

For me, reading ten pages of posts about how "IT" is oozing
from "our" every pore really doesn't feel all that supportive.
Do femme's ooze out of every pore and if they do are they also helpless?
<cringe> I really hate the stereotyping. ALL of it.
Knight in shining armor bs saving the damsel in distress fantasy?
really?
Can we stop with the harlequin stuff ,one day? please?! snort!


Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone
I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

Love this!!!

[thedivahrrrself]

Originally Posted by Dude

For me, reading ten pages of posts about how "IT" is oozing
from "our" every pore really doesn't feel all that supportive.
Do femme's ooze out of every pore and if they do are they also helpless?

Well, Dude, I like to think I do! But I am certainly not helpless.

Originally Posted by Dude

I'll just say I can sew

You have no idea how sexy that is, Dude! I'd give my big toe to be able to sew! If there is something you cannot do, I will so trade you something (cookies, maybe?) for your sewing services. LOL Stereotypes are usually there for a reason, but they are never all-encompassing. If someone does not appreciate your softer side, well she's not good enough for you anyway.

[Leigh]

What makes a Butch, "Butch"?

Easy .............

Whatever makes them who they are!

Seriously, what makes someone a butch is no different than what makes the rest of us human ~ we are who we are, that's good enough for me

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Dude

Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone

I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post!

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post!

crap, I did not mean to come off insensitive and do get that it must sometimes be hard for femme's too. sorry

vegas?
bloody hell! I should have moved to your table
One butch and three ftm's were friendly to me the entire time.
I will have a soft spot in my heart for them, forever.
I could make a movie spoof of the worst prom nightmare ever. ?
Of course, it may have been the company I was keeping or not anywhere's close to keeping, too. snort
Threats come in all ages
It's a shame, people think the worst of each other without knowing them.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Dude

crap, I did not mean to come off insensitive and do get that it must sometimes be hard for femme's too. sorry

vegas?
bloody hell! I should have moved to your table
One butch and three ftm's were friendly to me the entire time.
I will have a soft spot in my heart for them, forever.
I could make a movie spoof of the worst prom nightmare ever. ?
Of course, it may have been the company I was keeping or not anywhere's close to keeping, too. snort
Threats come in all ages
It's a shame, people think the worst of each other without knowing them.

I did not mean to sound like you were being insensitive , just wanted you to know its hard for all of us.

Nah, I was cool in Vegas, I had a date. New Orleans was really rough though. We've all come a lonnnng way since then. The Reunions are wayy more friendly on all fronts.

[Deborah]

I agree with this Apocalipstic - it's always been hard for me to have femme friends even in the straight world...and I am sure I was partly responsible for that...at this point in my life and this stage of the game I don't take all that stuff so seriously or myself for that matter and I find it much easier to know who is real and who isn't and I love my femme friends....sadly right now most all of them live in Tennessee <3

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Bonding with other Femmes has been a learned skill for me. The first 40 years of my life I had no good Femme friends and the Femmes I knew saw me as a threat. Even when I went to my first Dash-Bash, Femmes avoided me.

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post!

[Dude]

first off ,to me ,straight women are Not femme's

secondly this is a butch thread , not a man thread

and that's all I'm gonna say ( I think )

[Toughy]

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Toughy

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I really, really like this thread because of this post, and the vast majority of the other posts in this thread that say similar things. Many butch posters have gone to great lengths to say in ways both simple and complex that their female bodies carry their butch-i-tude. That being butch is, for them, masculine energy in a woman's body. That being butch means simply being themselves.

That's super cool. (And super hot.) What's not cool is that so many butches have been made to feel defensive about being both butch and a woman. I wish it were not so. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make all the bs disappear. Unfortunately, the only thing I can do is continually offer my unquestioning support. You're all perfect and beautiful exactly the way you are.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Toughy

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I guess that happens because some butches identify as male. And male seems to overpower and sometimes erase female. So it feels as though we are put on the defensive. And often we do have to be on the defensive because the female part of female masculinity gets lost in male posturing and bravado.

Yet the reality is that some butches don’t identify as women and some don’t even identify as female. Personally I believe butch is a default female or woman identity. It is about butch masculinity carried in a female body. It is most definitely for me about queering masculinity in a female body. And there certainly is a difference between masculine and male/man. Yet there are butches who identify as male or man. I just don’t see this as having to do with a butch identity. To me it is another identifier used in conjunction with but not a requisite part of being butch. Yet it is a part of that butch.

I remember being told growing up that my actions were not the actions of a woman. I was told that little girls didn’t act in whatever way I was acting. I finally explained that this couldn’t be true because I was in fact a girl and I was doing whatever it was I was doing so consequently girls did indeed do it. I remember how that felt when someone tried to take female from me. I am a butch but I am also a woman. Anyway knowing how that felt, I wouldn’t tell anyone else who they can be or that any action or identity takes away another. I could never say butches cannot be male or man. I just don’t think that being male or man is connected to their butchness.

Butch does not equal male or man. Man is not butch taken to its logical conclusion. Neither is male. Butch is about female masculinity or masculinity queered. But masculinity can be queered without a female identity and I don't think that erases butch. Perhaps then it is not exactly female masculinity but it is queered masculinity. And that is not your straight man’s masculinity. It is quite a different animal indeed.

[Mr. Cynthia]

Originally Posted by Toughy

One of the things that still, always has, and always will bother me is the linkage of male and butch. As far as I remember, every single time (dash & planet) the identity of butch appears, the identity of male appears with it. Woman and butch seem to appear as a secondary concept and we (woman butch) are put into a defensive position.

Butch does not equal male or man as a default. In my mind, butch is a default female or woman identity. Butch is masculinity carried in a female body. Butch is queering masculinity in a female body. There is a difference between masculine and male/man.

I'm not clear I am being clear.....laughin......so I'll stop now...

I think you're quite clear, Toughy.

I was born butch but I didn't really want to be male. I wanted to be a female who could wear what she wants, cut her hair like she wants, work and play like she wants and love the kind of women she wants. Society makes the cognitive leap from all that to "oh, she wants to be a man."

I ID as a bulldyke because the term connotes "lesbian" (which includes "woman" by default) and "butch" all in one tidy little word that just rolls off my tongue...especially in the presence of earnest straight people trying really hard to be cool

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Dude

first off ,to me ,straight women are Not femme's

secondly this is a butch thread , not a man thread

and that's all I'm gonna say ( I think )

I quess you get to say what people can and cannot say ....It's not a femme thread either but you had a lot to say about them ..But I see it's what ever YOU chose it to be ...

[Dude]

yup , I'm the ruler of the thread

what I wrote WAS ==> to me (for me, my opinion, etc.)

no show here, folks

the end

put me on ignore , if I bother you so fucking much

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Its not easier. I make an effort and realize the importance of community and love love love my Femme sisters now. Maybe I am too old to be a threat any more, but thats cool. Lol.

Great post!

I love sisterhood! Bonding does seem easier for femmes (minus the catty back-stabbing) which is why I tend to hang with other femmes.
No one has mentioned something obvious to me. We are engendered with masculine or feminine characteristics via the actions of T and E. Ones normal endogenous levels will effect whether or not you have mild or bodacious secondary sex characteristics (butch swagger or wide hips that swing when you walk, etc.).
In this case, yes, butchness will come out the pores. T, E and many other hormones do come out your pores. It's sexy as frak! to a femme like moi and makes me wax girly (I'll even get a high lilt to my speech and laugh).
In closing, I just want to say again....bodacious. Thank you very much.

[Toughy]

I am a young masculine girl....I play bball, soccer, volleyball, softball, track/field....pick a ball and I can play with it..................

I get the masculine part.,....I do really live it.....it lives with me every day with every gesture, movement. I am masculine.....there is no doubt.

Who will help me find my feminine that lives with my masculine?

When I came out, I was blessed to have a femme who loved my masculinity and understood my femininity and helped me put them together.

I will always forever give thanks to her

[rustedrims]

Going to go back a few posts and comment on the hair cut and Butches wearing a dress..I kinda know something about both subjects..

Is a butch any less a butch if they are wearing a dress..??..I say no..My little brother was getting married and my mom,sister and grandma was giving me a real hard time about what i was going to wear..They were pushing me real hard on wearing a dress..I wasnt in the wedding so couldnt i wear what i want..??..Well took it as a dare and me and my girlfriend at the time went shopping for a dress for me..Yep bought one and wore it..I felt out of place so bad that i was very uncomfortable..It seemed like everyone came to the wedding to see if i was going to wear that dress..My girlfriend liked seeing me in it..Couldnt wait till i could take it off..Ok i got the dress and wearing it and my sister makes the comment on how i was walking..REALLY..?..I put the dress on and it still wasnt enough..I cant change the walk/swagger even in a dress..I wasnt any less a Butch in a dress,,just an uncomfortable one..That was about 25-26 years ago..They are still married..

A few years later my older sister was getting married..Here we go again..This time she asked me to be in the wedding..That was quite an ordeal because they were going to get married on my 21st birthday..WHAT.!!.You are going to make me wear a dress on my 21st BIRTHDAY and plan my day according to what you want me to do..Ummm NO.!.I turned down the offer to be in the wedding because of my birthaday and didnt want to wear a dress the whole entire day..On my Birthday.!!.That caused a bunch of trouble..She wouldnt change the wedding day and i wouldnt change my mind..My Butchness was fully entact that day..My other sisters boyfriend took me across the street and bought me my first legal drink while the pictures were being taken..Think we had a few..That was about 20-22 years ago..They are still married..

Yet another wedding..Another sister is getting married..She asked me to be in her wedding and i accepted..We had to wear a light pink dress with a big bow on our a#ses..Not a pretty sight or dress..None of us liked it..It was very low cut and if we bent over far enough you could see all the way to our bellybuttons..Oh yeah flower in our hair..I took that out imediately or as soon as i could..Very uncomfortable and i felt like an idiot..Again i was told to walk like a girl..How can i do that being a butch..??..Anyway it was time to take that dress off..I went out to my car and got my other clothes..Went in the bathroom to change and my grandma was in there..I said i am sorry grandma and that da#n hoop dress went right over my head and on the floor..There i was naked infront of grandma..I felt more comfortable like that than with that dress on..Put on my tightest pair of Levis and my "dress up t-shirt" with my hiking boots..Went out sat with my cousins and said now it is time to drink..My cousin smiled put a cup in front of me and filled that thing up..That marriage was over less than 3 years..{told ya,but what do i know}..

Now the hair..I prefer a little length..When i was little mom forced me to have short hair..It was her decision on how i was to wear my hair not mine..I didnt like the way it looked on me..Thought it made my ears stick out..So i like my hair to cover my ears..Told my hair girl the story and she cuts/trims accordinly..

Now with that being said..Through all those dresses and longer hair..I am still a butch on the inside and able to express it on the outside..No one can change that with a dress..It is what i feel and what i am..I am a Butch woman and very secure with that..

Kinda funny.. A few months ago i had to attend a funeral of a close family member..The kids were taking bets on what i was going to wear..Not a dress this time it was dress pants or the Levis..I picked the Levis and a shirt i ironed..They told me about it and who won..We laughed about it..The kids were not around during the dress time..They do know i will not be wearing a dress at any time even on Halloween..They know i am a Butch and respect that as it is and they dont care how i walk either..Love those kids..

sorry it got kinda long
thanks for reading

s..

[Mr. Cynthia]

Originally Posted by rustedrims

Going to go back a few posts and comment on the hair cut and Butches wearing a dress..I kinda know something about both subjects..

Is a butch any less a butch if they are wearing a dress..??..I say no..My little brother was getting married and my mom,sister and grandma was giving me a real hard time about what i was going to wear..They were pushing me real hard on wearing a dress..I wasnt in the wedding so couldnt i wear what i want..??..Well took it as a dare and me and my girlfriend at the time went shopping for a dress for me..Yep bought one and wore it..I felt out of place so bad that i was very uncomfortable..It seemed like everyone came to the wedding to see if i was going to wear that dress..My girlfriend liked seeing me in it..Couldnt wait till i could take it off..Ok i got the dress and wearing it and my sister makes the comment on how i was walking..REALLY..?..I put the dress on and it still wasnt enough..I cant change the walk/swagger even in a dress..I wasnt any less a Butch in a dress,,just an uncomfortable one..That was about 25-26 years ago..They are still married..

A few years later my older sister was getting married..Here we go again..This time she asked me to be in the wedding..That was quite an ordeal because they were going to get married on my 21st birthday..WHAT.!!.You are going to make me wear a dress on my 21st BIRTHDAY and plan my day according to what you want me to do..Ummm NO.!.I turned down the offer to be in the wedding because of my birthaday and didnt want to wear a dress the whole entire day..On my Birthday.!!.That caused a bunch of trouble..She wouldnt change the wedding day and i wouldnt change my mind..My Butchness was fully entact that day..My other sisters boyfriend took me across the street and bought me my first legal drink while the pictures were being taken..Think we had a few..That was about 20-22 years ago..They are still married..

Yet another wedding..Another sister is getting married..She asked me to be in her wedding and i accepted..We had to wear a light pink dress with a big bow on our a#ses..Not a pretty sight or dress..None of us liked it..It was very low cut and if we bent over far enough you could see all the way to our bellybuttons..Oh yeah flower in our hair..I took that out imediately or as soon as i could..Very uncomfortable and i felt like an idiot..Again i was told to walk like a girl..How can i do that being a butch..??..Anyway it was time to take that dress off..I went out to my car and got my other clothes..Went in the bathroom to change and my grandma was in there..I said i am sorry grandma and that da#n hoop dress went right over my head and on the floor..There i was naked infront of grandma..I felt more comfortable like that than with that dress on..Put on my tightest pair of Levis and my "dress up t-shirt" with my hiking boots..Went out sat with my cousins and said now it is time to drink..My cousin smiled put a cup in front of me and filled that thing up..That marriage was over less than 3 years..{told ya,but what do i know}..

Now the hair..I prefer a little length..When i was little mom forced me to have short hair..It was her decision on how i was to wear my hair not mine..I didnt like the way it looked on me..Thought it made my ears stick out..So i like my hair to cover my ears..Told my hair girl the story and she cuts/trims accordinly..

Now with that being said..Through all those dresses and longer hair..I am still a butch on the inside and able to express it on the outside..No one can change that with a dress..It is what i feel and what i am..I am a Butch woman and very secure with that..

Kinda funny.. A few months ago i had to attend a funeral of a close family member..The kids were taking bets on what i was going to wear..Not a dress this time it was dress pants or the Levis..I picked the Levis and a shirt i ironed..They told me about it and who won..We laughed about it..The kids were not around during the dress time..They do know i will not be wearing a dress at any time even on Halloween..They know i am a Butch and respect that as it is and they dont care how i walk either..Love those kids..

sorry it got kinda long
thanks for reading

s..

Damn, I'm glad I've only got one sister! I didn't wear a dress to her wedding but I did grow out my flat top and wear a women's suit - for my mom, not my sister.

In fact, when I asked my sister if she was gonna want me in a dress for the big day, she laughed out loud and said, "Don't be silly, you'd look ridiculous."

I think she was secretly afraid that the novelty of her big bulldyke sister in a dress would become the one thing everybody remembered about her wedding...