BASEBALL!

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Wolfsong

Well looking at your division it's kind of nice to see Baltimore on top. They've always had a team of pretty nice guys and it could be one of those underdog feel good stories of the year if it continues. I would not expect to see Toronto gain anymore ground this year. The Yankess always start out near the bottom of the pack and move their way up until they are under full steam come September. You guys have a lot of work to do if you are going to make a decent showing of this year.

Interesting note - Boston tried to get Billy Beane (OAK -Moneyball) as a GM for 12.5M in '02. He said no thank you. They then turned to Theo Epstein (who was only 28 yrs old at the time) and he used the same principles as Beane (it has a name - Sabermetrics) and that's how they ended up the improbable heros of '04.

Boston has the same pathetic rabid fan devotion that the Cubs have. I believe that this is ultimately their downfall as well. What I don't get is that your payroll is the 3rd largest (behind, of course, the Yankees and then Philly)in baseball. So everyone is getting ripped off over there. When the White Sox quit trying (note I said quit trying and not simply losing) we just stop going to the games. I don't understand why you (Boston fans) and more so, my less enlightened brethren on the north side, continue to support teams that don't even try.

Beane and Epstein might have had similar philosophies on money management way back when. But Beane never had the money to work with. He had to improvise to get the best value for the few bucks he had. He used a different method of statistical analysis to evaluate players potential, using different methods of probability to gauge a players attributes and picking those who would fill the holes while not breaking his meager budget. He made many a career by showcasing their talents in new ways. And, he lost those players to big budget teams in the end.

Theo had a heck of a bankroll to work with and increased it with advertising as well as making "things" the official Red Sox favorite....ice cream, cheese snacks, hospitals, mri providers, etc all offical Red Sox "supporters" paying big bucks for the privilege of the designation.

But, Theo, imo, got lost in the money maze trying to capture more titles. He became bolder and bolder on questionable players i.e. DiceK, Lackey, Drew, Crawford, and had a thing for going after past their prime pitchers coming off major arm surgery. He spent a fortune on people who just didnt and arent performing well enough to justify the incredible salaries they are being paid.

And, he got himself sucked into the Cashman bidding theatrics way too many times, finding himself holding the bag on contracts for underperforming players while Cashman cashed in on dependable players who made a difference. Me thinks Theo got a little too impressed with himself.

Pathetic rabid fan devotion? We differ there. It is not pathetic nor rabid to me. It is part of being a fan, in good times and in bad, when they do well and when they suck the big one.

If you only support a team that is doing well, are you a fan of the team or a fan of winning?

[girl_dee]

Because sometimes a team what keeps things alive. i was a NOLA Saints fan my entire life, Red Sox too, sometimes people need something to believe in. The Saints took over 45 years to just make it past round one of the playoffs, still the were our team. Win or lose we love em.....i'm no fair weather fan.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Because sometimes a team what keeps things alive. i was a NOLA Saints fan my entire life, Red Sox too, sometimes people need something to believe in. The Saints took over 45 years to just make it past round one of the playoffs, still the were our team. Win or lose we love em.....i'm no fair weather fan.

The Brooklyn Dodgers were the greatest epitome of this ..... their "next year" finally came in 1955 after many years of failure at the final hurdle.

[Wolfsong]

Originally Posted by Kobi

That was cool. It was our second win at home since mid-April. Kind of sad to think home cooking has motivated only 4 wins this seasons. But a win is a win at this point of the game.

Glad you gained some ground. Still sweeping the cellar here LOL.

Let's keep our fingers crossed tonight. I need a Boston win

Originally Posted by macele

doing the right thing in sports such as attitude, playing the game fair, giving all players a chance, etc. ... may not lead to a championship. but it leads to winning in the heart.

i don't see this as one of those things. maybe i'm wrong to a certain degree. the lady of sorrows are standing up for what they believe in.

Pretty insightful of you to recognize that they are simply standing up for what they believe in disregarding that the rest of us find it rather senseless. I had to look up this society and it looks like they went way rouge on the Catholic Church although they clain to obey the pope (they've managed to piss off 2 popes now and gotten themselves excommunicated by the vatican.)

Originally Posted by Ciaran

The Brooklyn Dodgers were the greatest epitome of this ..... their "next year" finally came in 1955 after many years of failure at the final hurdle.

The Brooklyn Dodgers should still be in Brooklyn and you are right. This team was a perfect example of the difference between trying and not trying. They had won several pennants previous to 1953 and never made it all the way. How much more sweet their victory was over the Yankees.

[macele]

i did not say that i agree with the lady of sorrows. i said that they needed to re schedule. play schools with the same rules/beliefs.

[Wolfsong]

Originally Posted by macele

i did not say that i agree with the lady of sorrows. i said that they needed to re schedule. play schools with the same rules/beliefs.

I know you didn't and I agree with you. Actually it's kind of silly, it isn't like the girl is wanting to play for their team.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Wolfsong

The Brooklyn Dodgers should still be in Brooklyn and you are right. This team was a perfect example of the difference between trying and not trying. They had won several pennants previous to 1953 and never made it all the way. How much more sweet their victory was over the Yankees.

Yes, they had lost to the Yankees in the 1941, 1947, 1949 and 1953 World Series before finally winning in 1955. They'd also lost two World Series in their earlier years, 1916 against the Red Sox (with Babe Ruth in the team) and Cleveland Indians in 1920.

Sad state of affairs that both the Dodgers and Giants moved to the west coast in the late 1950s.

[Wolfsong]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Sad state of affairs that both the Dodgers and Giants moved to the west coast in the late 1950s.

Well, I believe that the local team is also closely associated with the city/town/neighborhood/fan's identity. If it were not so thousands of joyus fans would not be jumping up and down screaming We Won We Won after clinching a championship. I believe that it takes something away, you lose a little, when a team leaves for another location.

The Mets moved in but it just isn't the same. Just like when a favorite neighbor moves out and another moves into his house. You might like the new guy, but you'll never forget the time that.......with the original neighbor. The new guy will never be the old guy even if you grow to love him.

We could have lost the White Sox to Florida in 1989. Thankfully we did not. The neighborhood that the team is located in, Bridgeport (and the south side of Chicago) would have suffered greatly for it. It's as much a part of us as the churches, the schools, and the locally owned businesses. Even if you weren't AT the game, the sound of fireworks booming in the night meant that someone knocked it out of the park or that our White Sox won.

Pittsburgh is a prime example of a city identifying with their teams. Every one of their sporting teams have the same colors, Black and Yellow. From the Pirates to the Penguins to the Steelers alike........Black and Yellow......the color of the city......the Iron City.

Now I've never been to LA, but I can say I've never met anyone who said they were a die hard Dodgers fan. The city currently is the largest market without a professional football team. They do follow the Lakers but I can't tell if that is fandom or fashion. They just don't seem to have the heart.

[AtLast]

My folks loved it that the "Bums" and the NY Giants moved to CA. They courted & sparked back in the 30's with these teams but moved to CA in 1948.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Wolfsong

Now I've never been to LA, but I can say I've never met anyone who said they were a die hard Dodgers fan. The city currently is the largest market without a professional football team. They do follow the Lakers but I can't tell if that is fandom or fashion. They just don't seem to have the heart.

I've been to Southern California often, although until now I've never been to the Dodgers. Ironically, however, I'm actually going to one of their games later this month.

I'll always remember when the Raiders played in Los Angeles. I was a Washington Redskins fan as a young child and cried tremendously when the Raiders won the 1984 Super Bowl.

[Wolfsong]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Pathetic rabid fan devotion? We differ there. It is not pathetic nor rabid to me. It is part of being a fan, in good times and in bad, when they do well and when they suck the big one.

If you only support a team that is doing well, are you a fan of the team or a fan of winning?

This is why I noted specifically a difference between a team that loses and a team that does not try. I'm blessed in my life to have seen a team that I love win the World Series and am aware of fans that cannot (most notably my neighbors to the north who have suffered through 100 years of dismal heartache.) I am also aware that this, for White Sox fans, may never happen again (during my lifetime). I've sat through games where it was literally sleeting and others so hot and the air still it was nearly unbearable and they LOST. That does not stop me from coming back.

What WOULD stop me is if I saw a bunch of guys on the field that didn't give a crap because win or lose they are still getting a paycheck, and/or an ownership or team management that did not care about the players or the fans. Ozzie was headed in this direction with the team and we are blessed to be rid of him.

Chicago experianced this firsthand during the 1919 Black Sox scandal. Charlie Comiskey was for underpaying his players for years. At that time, players either had to take the salary they were offered, or couldn't play in the majors. They were property of their original team, and no other team was allowed to sign them. He cheated them out of their bonuses and pay that they were due so they said the hell with it. (I am of the firm belief that neither Shoeless Joe Jackson or Buck Weaver had a part in this thing but were convicted nonetheless)

What I mean by pathetic and rabid is the fan that allows the team to take their money, treat them like shit, and keeps coming back. To quote the 2005 film Fever Pitch;

"You love the Red Sox, but have they ever loved you back?"

If the answer is no it's time to consider a break-up

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Wolfsong

This is why I noted specifically a difference between a team that loses and a team that does not try. I'm blessed in my life to have seen a team that I love win the World Series and am aware of fans that cannot (most notably my neighbors to the north who have suffered through 100 years of dismal heartache.) I am also aware that this, for White Sox fans, may never happen again (during my lifetime). I've sat through games where it was literally sleeting and others so hot and the air still it was nearly unbearable and they LOST. That does not stop me from coming back.

What WOULD stop me is if I saw a bunch of guys on the field that didn't give a crap because win or lose they are still getting a paycheck, and/or an ownership or team management that did not care about the players or the fans. Ozzie was headed in this direction with the team and we are blessed to be rid of him.

Chicago experianced this firsthand during the 1919 Black Sox scandal. Charlie Comiskey was for underpaying his players for years. At that time, players either had to take the salary they were offered, or couldn't play in the majors. They were property of their original team, and no other team was allowed to sign them. He cheated them out of their bonuses and pay that they were due so they said the hell with it. (I am of the firm belief that neither Shoeless Joe Jackson or Buck Weaver had a part in this thing but were convicted nonetheless)

What I mean by pathetic and rabid is the fan that allows the team to take their money, treat them like shit, and keeps coming back. To quote the 2005 film Fever Pitch;

"You love the Red Sox, but have they ever loved you back?"

If the answer is no it's time to consider a break-up

Ahh ok. Am following your train of thought now.

One of the fun things about being a Red Sox fan, is the fans have no qualms about letting players know they are dissatisfied with their attitude and play. Josh Beckett got a taste of this last night. He hasnt pitched because of a strained arm ligament but he was found to be out golfing shortly after this injury. The media got wind of it. The fans booed him when he took the mound last night. Booed him even louder when he pitched horribly. And they will do it again.

IMO, we do have a primadonna problem which no one quite seems to know how to resolve. I am hoping someone will have the gonads to shake things up, make trades even if it means eating peoples salaries, shrink a few heads down to size, and get folks back on track. Until then, fans will be sure to register their disappointment in ways that work for them.

BTW, always hated that line from Fever Pitch LOL. Love is how you define it when it comes to sports and most other things. The Red Sox gave me a World Series while I was still young enough to enjoy and appreciate it. And, I got a cool hat out of the deal. And I have a collection of vintage autographed photos - a '67 Yaz is my favorite but I followed the late Ken Brett all over baseball and he obliged me with every new team he joined. And a collection of yearbooks going back to the 60's. I got to see, in person, the likes of Thurman Munson, Frank and Brooks Robinson, Dave Winfield, Carlton Fisk, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally, Alan Trammel, Denny McClain, George Brett, Johnny Bench, etc. They gave me memories that I simply treasure. That, to me, is the love the Red Sox gave back to me.

[Wolfsong]

Originally Posted by Kobi

BTW, always hated that line from Fever Pitch LOL. Love is how you define it when it comes to sports and most other things. The Red Sox gave me a World Series while I was still young enough to enjoy and appreciate it. And, I got a cool hat out of the deal. And I have a collection of vintage autographed photos - a '67 Yaz is my favorite but I followed the late Ken Brett all over baseball and he obliged me with every new team he joined. And a collection of yearbooks going back to the 60's. I got to see, in person, the likes of Thurman Munson, Frank and Brooks Robinson, Dave Winfield, Carlton Fisk, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally, Alan Trammel, Denny McClain, George Brett, Johnny Bench, etc. They gave me memories that I simply treasure. That, to me, is the love the Red Sox gave back to me.

Fever Pitch was cute. (I have a long-standing crush on Drew Berrymore). I agree, I got to see a lot of the guys you mentioned. My favorite all time player is Roger Maris by virture of his integrity more so than his play. I'd love to see more than his bat in the hall of fame. I am also partial to Cal Ripkin Jr and several others that have won me over with work ethic and a true love of the game. Bucky Dent was my favorite as a kid. Then I see guys like Roger Clemens and want to take up LaCross or something.

Do the White Sox love me? Comiskey Park is the only place in the world that I can go and my troubles cannot follow me. As I walk up the ramp and see the first hint of green on fresh cut grass, hear bats cracking and gloves thudding, smell summer and hot dogs and cotton candy, and tear up to the first stains of the national anthem I have no doubt in my mind that yes, the White Sox love me.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Wolfsong

Fever Pitch was cute. (I have a long-standing crush on Drew Berrymore). I agree, I got to see a lot of the guys you mentioned. My favorite all time player is Roger Maris by virture of his integrity more so than his play. I'd love to see more than his bat in the hall of fame. I am also partial to Cal Ripkin Jr and several others that have won me over with work ethic and a true love of the game. Bucky Dent was my favorite as a kid. Then I see guys like Roger Clemens and want to take up LaCross or something.

Do the White Sox love me? Comiskey Park is the only place in the world that I can go and my troubles cannot follow me. As I walk up the ramp and see the first hint of green on fresh cut grass, hear bats cracking and gloves thudding, smell summer and hot dogs and cotton candy, and tear up to the first stains of the national anthem I have no doubt in my mind that yes, the White Sox love me.

Gotta love that Sox love. Now if we could just throw in a few more wins.....

[Wolfsong]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Gotta love that Sox love. Now if we could just throw in a few more wins.....

Well if we can't clean house on Kansas City I don't know what to say. Looks like you guys a pushing Cleveland around some this evening. Thanks!

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Wolfsong

Well if we can't clean house on Kansas City I don't know what to say. Looks like you guys a pushing Cleveland around some this evening. Thanks!

Hope your Sox have better luck with KC than my Sox did. I mean really, losing 2 of 3 to KC? It was so sad.

Yeah, my guys do good pushing people around early. It's the later innings we seem to lose focus, drop fly balls, forgot how many outs there are, and other mental errors.

Cleveland will push us around some more - getting back at us for stealing Victor Martinez.