Opinions

[Quintease]

I'm only 37 and I remember (I was in a different country but we had similar laws) not allowing my gf a motorbike because if she died, I knew her family would lock me out of the hospital room and the funeral. They hated the fact she was gay.

I had friends who got kicked out of rented premises for being gay and others lost their job. I currently know people who are fighting American immigration. In my own country gay marriage is still not allowed and until recently, transpeople had to be 'biologically infertile' in order to change their birth certificate.

People can turn this into a class issue all they want, but it's not. Gay people are second class regardless of class and we need to change that. This means that gay people of all classes and privilege are getting involved. I know closeted lawyers who are sticking their neck out to fight for LGBT asylum seekers. Being privileged does not necessarily mean you don't care, if fact it can mean you can achieve more. Just like Obama has done in the hearts and minds of the American people. He told the people who voted him in that he feels that gay marriage is OK. These people may even listen to Obama, they wanted him to rule the country after all.

[aishah]

i feel like my words are being twisted here. it was a mistake to post in this thread in the first place; this is why i've stayed out of almost all of the marriage threads period. i thought that since it was relevant to the article, maybe it wouldn't be a terrible idea to post in here, and i was wrong. being called a privileged tosser who's completely ignorant of history and is setting the movement back has made me feel like shit, so thanks for that.

i understand, cheryl, that it carries emotional weight. what i am saying is that it doesn't seem to carry all that much legal or even political weight. we're still in the same spot we were before he said it - except now my facebook feed is blowing up because people think he's the second coming.

and yes, quintease, we all help out however we can - however, since the mainstream lgbtq rights movement in the united states has turned itself into almost a single-issue movement (gay marriage), those of us who work on other issues don't get heard that often (let alone funded). and the president is not going to make any grand, sweeping statements about issues other than gay marriage. and many straight people think that gay marriage is the only issue.

i still think that's a problem. and i still think that saying that's a problem is relevant to the article that snow posted. but i'm going to shut up now.

[The_Lady_Snow]

If you're not into "marriage" like some of us aren't it's going to feel unequal and people who are and have been coupled minus a piece of paper should still be able to get the same rights as their straight counter parts.

Lots of laws keep the LGBTQI peoples from having the same rights as heterinormative folks do from adoptions to estate taxes...

Until it's Federal and not just in the hands of the States we have a long fight, this time with some acknowledgement from The POTUS.

It's up to us to be visible, vote and not give up.

[Medusa]

I wrote a rant on Facebook a while back that really speaks loudly to how I feel about all of the chatter happening around Obama's "Gay is Ok" statements.

My facebook rant came on the heels of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell thing going away where Gays can now openly serve in the military. My first inclination when that was announced was to rejoice.
My Facebook friends feed so began filling up with other Queers posting about how they "could not celebrate because Gay soldiers were still agents of genocide" and other such statements that felt really discrediting to all of the celebratory posts that they were couched between.

Something very similar happened with this news story.

Here's the thing for me, I am going to celebrate the fact that our President said out loud that he thinks it's ok for us to marry.

I get that there are huge issues surrounding the WHY's and the timing of how he did it. I get that some of us Queers don't want to get Gay Married. I get that there are other people out there who want things and that this feels like a shitty alternative to their idea of a "true Utopian Society" where straight folks are buying the Gay spectrum a Coke and teaching them how to sing.

My irritation around the "but, but, but..." is probably highly privileged.
I'll own that fully before I go any further.

Nonetheless, here is my irritation: When are we as GLBTQ people going to stop "but, but, but-ing" and throwing ourselves on the equality sword every time we get a little something-something?

What I mean by this is, it is a HUGE deal to me that DADT was repealed. Sure, Gay soldiers are still agents of genocide but at least they aren't agents of their own erasure anymore. Can't we fucking celebrate that? Can't we stop stomping down our own joy over Gay marriage just for a split second and take in fully what it means for the POTUS to acknowledge us?

I want my Trans brothers and sisters to be acknowledged as well.
I want racism to end.
I want classism to end.
I want the world to be perfect and accepting and balanced for all of us.

I believe in my heart that the steps to get there are sometimes small and quiet and I am going to celebrate every one of them for just a moment before I start finger-waggling about how it "ain't good enough".

I believe that we sometimes have to look at ANY progress for one of us as SOME progress for all of us.

I realize that some small part of this for me is coming from that place of having been marginalized so long that I'll take any friggin' crumb that I'm thrown but I also come from a place of having been an activist for a long, LONG time. That means that my rage at the end of the day is no less there, just more measured.

In short, I am glad that Obama said what he said. I'll probably be pissed later when it boils down to a political ploy but he is the first sitting President to ever acknowledge us this way. I'll take that with gratitude.

What he said did not come without cost. To him or to us.

He will be fighting an uphill battle with some of his more conservative voters. We are going to be plunged into the spotlight in ways that we never have been before and will probably feel the heat of 1000 conservative tongues telling us to "get back in our closet".

Either way, President Obama made me proud. Even if only for a little bit.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Can't we fucking celebrate that? Can't we stop stomping down our own joy over Gay marriage just for a split second and take in fully what it means for the POTUS to acknowledge us?

Yes this and everything else Medusa said. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and priorities on things, but to see President Obama get picked apart by queers everywhere (not just this site) really just makes me wonder when is anything every going to be good enough? I think more progress is made from rallying behind something than picking things apart.

I know the conservatives always vote and are a hell of a lot better at showing a united front. We can pick apart President Obama and usher in another conservative Republican president. Yeah that will really help our cause.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes this and everything else Medusa said. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and priorities on things, but to see President Obama get picked apart by queers everywhere (not just this site) really just makes me wonder when is anything every going to be good enough? I think more progress is made from rallying behind something than picking things apart.

I know the conservatives always vote and are a hell of a lot better at showing a united front. We can pick apart President Obama and usher in another conservative Republican president. Yeah that will really help our cause.

Maybe nothing will ever be good enough. I sure hope not! What is wrong with striving and continuing to work? Hey the civil rights act was passed and everything is good now! Hey the first wave of feminism fixed it all up and everything is good now! Woo hoo a post racism, post sexism and very soon post homophobic world!

I fail to see how discussing things makes me some big party pooper.

I voted for Obama last time and I will this time and would have even if he had not said publicly his view on gay marriage. He said it before he was President. I get that it is more meaningful now. I still am bummed though that he left it to the states. Maybe he will change that view.

[BullDog]

I prefer to build on victories. Momentum in a positive direction has the ability to change things.

[julieisafemme]

Do not shut up or bow out of this conversation! It is so important for our community for all voices to be heard!!! Lady Snow is exactly right that until this is a Federal law it really is meaningless. I do not see this as a state's right issue nor will I be satisfied by the President saying it is. Immigration is controlled on the federal level. State approval of gay marriage does not change that.

[aishah]

in my experience in other movements (especially feminism and disability rights), "trickle-down" equality very rarely actually trickles down. that's made me somewhat jaded and bitter. for that i apologize.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by aishah

in my experience in other movements (especially feminism and disability rights), "trickle-down" equality very rarely actually trickles down. that's made me somewhat jaded and bitter. for that i apologize.

Don't apologize! You speak the truth.

It's fucking HARD to find that balance internally between being thankful for the acknowledgment and still raging about all the ways we have to do better. I struggle.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by aishah

i feel like my words are being twisted here. it was a mistake to post in this thread in the first place; this is why i've stayed out of almost all of the marriage threads period. i thought that since it was relevant to the article, maybe it wouldn't be a terrible idea to post in here, and i was wrong. being called a privileged tosser who's completely ignorant of history and is setting the movement back has made me feel like shit, so thanks for that.

i understand, cheryl, that it carries emotional weight. what i am saying is that it doesn't seem to carry all that much legal or even political weight. we're still in the same spot we were before he said it - except now my facebook feed is blowing up because people think he's the second coming.

and yes, quintease, we all help out however we can - however, since the mainstream lgbtq rights movement in the united states has turned itself into almost a single-issue movement (gay marriage), those of us who work on other issues don't get heard that often (let alone funded). and the president is not going to make any grand, sweeping statements about issues other than gay marriage. and many straight people think that gay marriage is the only issue.

i still think that's a problem. and i still think that saying that's a problem is relevant to the article that snow posted. but i'm going to shut up now.

Aisha, I'm sorry to have hurt your feelings with my strong language. When I get wound up, I speak my mind without couching my ideas in the usual niceties. I have no exposure to facebook, but the places where I do look for information have been full of people saying things similar to you. Some don't understand why this is important any more than you do, and I find that shocking. Your primary objection seems to be that it won't affect you because your relationships aren't structured that way. And because marraige equality supposedly doesn't help trans people.

Many trans people who are able to change their ID, (majority of U.S. states), still want to get married, often to people of the gender to which they've changed their ID. That means they want access to marraige equality. Period. Just like other lgb people. I'm having a problem figuring out why something that greatly benefits many, but not all, lgbt people can't still be thought of as a great benefit, even by those who may have been left out in the first round. All civil rights struggles follow this path. We take the best deal we can manage in the moment, and then we go back and keep working for what we didn't get the first time. It is, indeed, destructive to take the short view when we're working on major civil rights issues.

As for dismissing the signifigance of marraige equality because it doesn't pertain to your personal relationship models, the travails of lgbt soldiers pre-DADT, and then during that miserable time, are well documented. I am now, and in the past was, about as likely to join any branch of the military as I am to shave my armpits and win Miss America. I'm horrified by many things that go on in in the military, in particular how much money we spend on weapons and weapons systems. I have very mixed feelings about all things military in general. That didn't stop me from working to end DADT, and feeling a huge sense of euphoria about its demise.

Why is that? Because every time an lgbt person is told that they're less-than, or that our relationships are less-than, something within the precious spirit of a young queer person gets more bruised, and more twisted. (It doesn't do calloused, old spirits any good, either.) And those who look for victims to assault are given the green light to do so. Because we're less-than. Every time a person of authority maligns us, or even just promotes seperate but allegedly equal treatment, those wounds fester, and those who mean us harm are encouraged to harm us. Every time a person of authority speaks up for us, it salves the wound, and gives the bad guys pause. The person with the greatest authority on earth just applied a huge soothing balm.

I frankly don't care at all whether or not your personal relationships will benefit from marrige equality any more than a lesbian soldier cares whether or not I've ever been a member of the military when I contacted my lawmaker on her behalf. The end of DADT had no immediate effect on my life, but the immediate effect it had on the lives of perhaps hundreds of thousands of lgbt soldiers, past and present, is so huge that the ripple effect has already rocked our society. The U.S. military is our biggest expenditure, and the sheer numbers of Americans who serve or have served is stupefying. I have NO DOUBT that the fact that the military apparatus continued to operate smoothly, and that other soldiers mostly don't give a crap about whether they're in the shower or a trench with a gay person, had a critical effect on the rapidly changing outlook that many Americans have about marraige equality.

Social movements to win civil rights are waged on many fronts. There are those in advocacy orgs who do this for a living, and those for whom this is their primary extra-curricular activity. There are those who write an occasional letter and sign petitions, and those who show up to march and demonstrate. People work on projects that are personally meaningful to us. All your facebook friends are happy about marraige equality because it's meaningful to them. Why do you think that is? And those who worked on this issue up until this point do so because why? The last reason why this is taking up so much room in the lgbt activist world is because we're winning. We're really, actually on the verge of winning this one, and it's going to be a huge win. How do we know we're winning? Because the President of the United States just spoke up about it.

As for real, concrete change- the statement of support Obama made changes no laws. You're right about that. I take issue with the woefully short-sighted assertion that it's not meaningful because the affect isn't immediately felt with a Federal law that grants marraige equality. Going back to Civics 101- if the POTUS were to unilaterally make and sign a new law today, he wouldn't be the POTUS. He would be the dictator of a country where the leader can rule by fiat. This is the first step in a long process. We all know that. I'll wait and see how long full equality takes, but the first step has been taken. That's why your facebook feed lit up. That's why New Yorkers danced in the street when Coumo signed the NY State marraige equality law. Full marraige equality will change the lives of a huge number of our people. I don't care whether or not you're personally interested in getting married. I doubt that I'll ever avail myself of the benefits of marraige. If you believe in equality, you support marraige equality. Period.

[blush]

Originally Posted by aishah

i feel like my words are being twisted here. it was a mistake to post in this thread in the first place; this is why i've stayed out of almost all of the marriage threads period. i thought that since it was relevant to the article, maybe it wouldn't be a terrible idea to post in here, and i was wrong. being called a privileged tosser who's completely ignorant of history and is setting the movement back has made me feel like shit, so thanks for that.

i understand, cheryl, that it carries emotional weight. what i am saying is that it doesn't seem to carry all that much legal or even political weight. we're still in the same spot we were before he said it - except now my facebook feed is blowing up because people think he's the second coming.

and yes, quintease, we all help out however we can - however, since the mainstream lgbtq rights movement in the united states has turned itself into almost a single-issue movement (gay marriage), those of us who work on other issues don't get heard that often (let alone funded). and the president is not going to make any grand, sweeping statements about issues other than gay marriage. and many straight people think that gay marriage is the only issue.

i still think that's a problem. and i still think that saying that's a problem is relevant to the article that snow posted. but i'm going to shut up now.

I think perhaps you're not considering the cultural weight and ramifications of his statement and how it might positively affect ALL situations. Much remains to be seen. Much needs to be done. But it's one of the few times we've moved forward instead of backwards. At this point, there is no legal weight, but there is a ton of political weight. Sometimes a seemingly single issues such as gay marriage is a "gateway drug" to bring more change and awareness.

[aishah]

maybe so, blush. i really, honestly, truly hope you're right. that's not been my experience. my experience has been people say "wait and let us get our little bit of whatever rights we want, and it'll trickle down to you" and it never does. people get their rights and they suddenly forget about all the people they're leaving behind.

[blush]

Originally Posted by aishah

maybe so, blush. i really, honestly, truly hope you're right. that's not been my experience. my experience has been people say "wait and let us get our little bit of whatever rights we want, and it'll trickle down to you" and it never does. people get their rights and they suddenly forget about all the people they're leaving behind.

cheryl, thank you for your apology. i wish it were possible to have heated debates that attack what people say instead of attacking people on the basis of age, or on the basis of being a "privileged tosser," as quintease said. i don't understand why any of these arguments couldn't have taken apart what i said without attacking me (or anyone here) as a person (or setting up a straw man argument claiming that i don't support gay marriage, when i clearly stated i do).

It's like Reaganomics for the queer world, isn't it?

It gets heated because it is so important (all of it)and we shouldn't have to fight it.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I'm only 37 and I remember (I was in a different country but we had similar laws) not allowing my gf a motorbike because if she died, I knew her family would lock me out of the hospital room and the funeral. They hated the fact she was gay.

I had friends who got kicked out of rented premises for being gay and others lost their job. I currently know people who are fighting American immigration. In my own country gay marriage is still not allowed and until recently, transpeople had to be 'biologically infertile' in order to change their birth certificate.

People can turn this into a class issue all they want, but it's not. Gay people are second class regardless of class and we need to change that. This means that gay people of all classes and privilege are getting involved. I know closeted lawyers who are sticking their neck out to fight for LGBT asylum seekers. Being privileged does not necessarily mean you don't care, if fact it can mean you can achieve more. Just like Obama has done in the hearts and minds of the American people. He told the people who voted him in that he feels that gay marriage is OK. These people may even listen to Obama, they wanted him to rule the country after all.

You think all queer people are treated just as horribly as each other? If a white middle or upper class gay/lesbian is treated as a second class citizen, then everyone else in the community is third or fourth class citizen. You think that a queer person from the south east Asian community who has to deal with the myriad of racist stereotypes about their community both within their community and outside of it is treated the same way as a white middle class gay men? How about other queer people of colour? I certainly don't think a working class gay black man and a middle class gay white man are getting the same shit end of the stick. A queer person living with a physical disability? There is a huge prejudicial gap, and marriage isn't going to mean shit with regards to basic human rights for many of these people.

You write that "This means that gay people of all classes and privilege are getting involved." That's not a very accurate statement. In fact, it's a pretty visible reality that those arguing for many mainstream gay/lesbian issues are not members of the most marginalised groups. They are by and large not people of colour, people with disabilities, people living below the poverty line or sex workers. Nor are they overwhelmingly poly folks. It's the same as with most popular "rights" movements today, from Occupy to the It Gets Better campaign. And the minute these people get their token law past or their five minutes of fame, they aren't going to give a shit about anything else. Exactly as its happened in Canada.

As far as turning it into an immigration issue, barely means shit for immigration...the system here continues to screw queer immigrants and refugees no matter what the nation's stance is on same-sex marriage. Until those seen as the "bottom of the barrel" are seen as legitimate human beings by society and governing bodies, there are always going to be horror stories about queer and trans people being locked away for months, denied immigration or refugee status, abused horribly. And as aishah said so well, "trick-down equality" is bullshit. As I said before, you want to espouse marriage equality as your primary rights fight, fine, but don't make it out to be a fight for all queer and trans people, because a fuck ton of us haven't (and won't) gained shit from that struggle, and it will be a cold day in hell before we do.

Edit: At this point, at least from the perspective of a Canadian, it becomes clear to me that a lot of policies are superficial and mean very little as far as how a person is going to be treated in day to day life. It means little in actually protecting people with these policies. Policies often act as a means of reinforcing the current liberal "feel good" view point that X policy is in place, everyone is equal. Personally, I think it's about time queer rights movements and feminist movements learn from the past...that this "trickle down" approach that sees certain privileged people as the target population for these policies as simply "opening the door" for others, is just an illusion. Most of the time that isn't what these policies mean at all. It's time to learn that truth and start fighting for rights for those who need them most urgently...and by urgently I mean those whose lives are most immediately in danger. People who are still actively being denied housing and employment. People who are still actively being verbally and physically assaulted on a regular basis and who have no advocates to stand up for them. I mean sex workers, I mean the homeless, I mean prisoners and others who whether because of additional racism, sexist, homophobic or transphobic challenges, or due to the fact that they live with mental illness or were diagnosed with mental illness, or live with physical disabilities, are believed to have no one to stand up for them when authoritative bodies lock them away as incapable of ruling over their own lives. Lock them away simply because they are visible. Lock them away because they believe they're nothing but trash.

[Quintease]

Putting it beautifully in Australia

[Apocalipstic]

Again,

Thank you President Obama for saying what you did about Gay marriage. NO other sitting President has ever done that.

I will not participate in picking apart what he said.

I never ever thought a day would come when I was not afraid to walk down the street or go in a bar without being killed or ending up in jail.

I am grateful and proud of President Obama.

[BullDog]

White, middle class people are not the only people who get married.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by BullDog

White, middle class people are not the only people who get married.

I was waiting for someone to say that.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by BullDog

White, middle class people are not the only people who get married.

My point, exactly. Trans people of all income levels get married. Very poor people get married. The benefits to them are many, and that seems to be the issue here. Why are lgbt people who don't believe we should be working on marriage equality in the habit of telling me that marriage is a privileged state precisely BECAUSE it brings financial benefits? If it's so privileged, why is it just as easy for a poor person to get married as a wealthy one? And, what's wrong with anyone accessing a state that brings some financial stability?

I don't have the energy to search through this thread to find Ender's post wherein he asserts that there's no real benefit to bi-national couples who want to marry. That pissed me right off, but I'm already so irritated that I decided not to answer. That's a flat out ridiculous assertion, and there are a few people on this site who would be breathing fire if they were to have read it because of how deeply their forced seperation hurts them. There are far too many lgbt binational couples who are kept apart by their inability to marry. Amongst my friends, the butch member of the binational couple in the direst circumstance due to marriage inequality is a low-income woman of colour. There, now. Does that mean you can care about marriage equality now?