Law and Order: SVU with Special Guest Kathy Griffin as lesbian

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Well, sure, that would be a great argument if that were actually the conversation being had here, but it's not. Actually, this post - in response to mine - is the first that has directly addressed the issue of media representation and cultural perception. Perhaps I missed a post along the way that also does so, please direct me to it if I'm mistaken.

Conversation about "what team" an actor is playing for, or, as Papa Chris said, "whining about straight portraying queering situations on TV" lacks as informed dialogue on media representation of lgbt "minority" culture. If we're worried about how the mainstream views lgbt individuals, then what is the relevance of the actor's sexuality? It's acting. The concern would be for plot line and script writing.

I'll engage you because I have a few minutes to waste.

So, let's take 'Milk' as an example. How much money did that movie make? A ton, right? And how much money did, let's say, Sean Penn make from that movie? A ton, right (comparatively speaking)? And how much of that money was made OFF of the queer community/queer history/etc? All of it, right? That was a movie about queer rights, based on queer history, etc. And how much of that money went back into to the queer community? To my knowledge NONE of it went back into the queer community.

So here's where (part of) the privilege comes into effect. Straight people USE the queer community to make a shit ton of money while giving NONE of it back to the queer community. That's exploitation, for one. But it's also the way dominant culture works to oppress the oppressed group and keep them down. TAKE from the oppressed group, without utilizing the oppressed group's skills/without giving back to the oppressed group/etc.

Now, by using straight actors to 'play gay', what does that say to mainstream (homophobic) America? If I go to my neighbor (who's straight), and I say 'act gay'. What's the first thing my straight neighbor is probably going to do? He's probably going to lisp, show me the limp wrist, flutter around, etc. He's going to 'act' based on stereotypes...which perpetuates stereotypes.

And now a question for you. If you see nothing wrong with straights playing gay (while gays are kept out of the career field), can you please break down the difference between white actors doing blackface or men playing drag roles, because women weren't allowed to be actors? Can you tell me the difference?


Thanks,
Dylan...keeping it brief, because there's a helluva lot more to break down in straights 'playing gay'.

[NJFemmie]

I loved this

I don't think it could have been done any better, by anyone else.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'll engage you because I have a few minutes to waste.

So, let's take 'Milk' as an example. How much money did that movie make? A ton, right? And how much money did, let's say, Sean Penn make from that movie? A ton, right (comparatively speaking)? And how much of that money was made OFF of the queer community/queer history/etc? All of it, right? That was a movie about queer rights, based on queer history, etc. And how much of that money went back into to the queer community? To my knowledge NONE of it went back into the queer community.

So here's where (part of) the privilege comes into effect. Straight people USE the queer community to make a shit ton of money while giving NONE of it back to the queer community. That's exploitation, for one. But it's also the way dominant culture works to oppress the oppressed group and keep them down. TAKE from the oppressed group, without utilizing the oppressed group's skills/without giving back to the oppressed group/etc.

*snip*

First-
I attended the premier showing of Milk here in Portland. Gus Van Sant lives here and donates a TON of money to our community as well as other non-profits. He hosted the event along with Josh Brolin. All of the proceeds from our premier were donated to Outside In, which, among other programs has several LGBTQ programs including a TRANS health clinic.
Sean Penn donated one of the suits he wore in the movie to charity which was auctioned off to support 2 non-profits, one being the Hetrick-Martin Institute, home of the Harvey Milk High School in New York City. He also is a huge supporter of the No on Prop 8 initiatives. Gus Van Sant also donated to the No on Prop 8 campaign.

Sure, it is not millions…well, actually I don't know for sure. I'm not privvy to private donations made to orgs. I sorta see your point, however...

Second-
A well-known straight actor portrayed a super Queer one. And who knows maybe a Queer actor could have played the part just as well. I’m of course, supporting that. OF COURSE!

In this case, I think because a well know actor (regardless of gay or not) acted the part and WELL, tons of awareness was raised about Queers!

Levi’s (you know, the jeans?) launched a huge campaign with, again the Hetrick-Martin Insitute, to raise funds to provide financial stability for the Harvey Milk School. I think it was like $500,000…? Because of the movie!

I’m not saying, let’s bust out some gold medals for Sean Penn or Gus Van Sant based on the info I just pointed out, but NONE is a big statement to make.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

First-
I attended the premier showing of Milk here in Portland. Gus Van Sant lives here and donates a TON of money to our community as well as other non-profits. He hosted the event along with Josh Brolin. All of the proceeds from our premier were donated to Outside In, which, among other programs has several LGBTQ programs including a TRANS health clinic.
Sean Penn donated one of the suits he wore in the movie to charity which was auctioned off to support 2 non-profits, one being the Hetrick-Martin Institute, home of the Harvey Milk High School in New York City. He also is a huge supporter of the No on Prop 8 initiatives. Gus Van Sant also donated to the No on Prop 8 campaign.

Sure, it is not millions…well, actually I don't know for sure. I'm not privvy to private donations made to orgs. I sorta see your point, however...

Second-
A well-known straight actor portrayed a super Queer one. And who knows maybe a Queer actor could have played the part just as well. I’m of course, supporting that. OF COURSE!

In this case, I think because a well know actor (regardless of gay or not) acted the part and WELL, tons of awareness was raised about Queers!

Levi’s (you know, the jeans?) launched a huge campaign with, again the Hetrick-Martin Insitute, to raise funds to provide financial stability for the Harvey Milk School. I think it was like $500,000…? Because of the movie!

I’m not saying, let’s bust out some gold medals for Sean Penn or Gus Van Sant based on the info I just pointed out, but NONE is a big statement to make.

Your points are valid

Soooo, Sean Penn donated a suit he didn't even pay for? Wow! That must have been tough for him to part with, eh? While a majority of the money he made (and academy award that should have gone into the queer community) gets spent in straightdom. While, had a queer actor had this role, it would have A) made queer actors more visible, B) would have mainstreamed queerdom even a little more, C) would have put more queer money into the queer economy, D) would have opened more doors between queers and straightdom.

Why is it no one can name a queer actor who's won an academy award? Why is it that when an actor comes out as queer, he/she no longer really has a career? Do you think if, say, George Clooney came out, his career would pretty much be over? Why is it they've glammed up and feminized Queen Latifah (who's a big ol' butch in real time)? Do you think Queen Latifah would be making money the way she is if she were to come out? What happened to Wanda Sykes career after she came out? She certainly doesn't have her own sitcom anymore. Ellen's show went pretty much down the tubes after she came out. Do you think 'Milk' would have made the same amount of money without a completely straight cast? How many straight people benefitted and made gads of money in Milk? How many queers? How many queers suffered to make the story of Milk? How many queers died to make that story? Now, how many straight people made gads of money off of that suffering while not one queer played a queer, because 'real' queers aren't palatable or profitable enough for mainstream America? How about that movie NJFemmie posted a pic from? How many trans folks and gender variant people suffer everyday, so straight/cis actors can make a killing off of making gender variance 'humorous' and palatable for mainstream America? And how about RuPaul? Wouldn't that have been a prime opportunity to cast a gender variant person? Oh, but wait, it wouldn't have been a) funny or b) profitable. Oh, and how about The Birdcage and Robin Williams and that other guy who's name I can't remember. Oh, or Brokeback Mountain.

Here's the thing, had queer played themselves, more of that millions of dollars paid to those actors would be back INSIDE the queer community, making the queer community stronger. Generally speaking, do you think queers would have given more money to fighting Prop 8 or do you think queers would have given token donations to a school? Do you think queer academy award winners would be speaking out against Prop 8 and using whatever big name leverage they have against Prop 8 or giving a suit to a non-profit? When queers make money, the queer community (generally) makes money...money that is used to fight hate crimes bills, Mormons, support queers with jobs, etc. When that money is given to straights, more of that money stays in the straight community...at the expense of queers. AND stereotypes are perpetuated.

And again, can you explain to me how straights playing queers is different from blackface and/or men playing women (as in Shakespeare days when women weren't allowed to act), etc from a dynamic of power/oppression? I mean, even now, women only make up 29% of speaking roles in major movies, and only 3 of 100 films are directed by women. Is that sexism or just 'directing'. I have a really hard time believing ANYONE here would be in agreement with men playing all the roles of women in major movies and would just call it 'acting'.


Dylan

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

*snip*
Why is it no one can name a queer actor who's won an academy award? Why is it that when an actor comes out as queer, he/she no longer really has a career? Do you think if, say, George Clooney came out, his career would pretty much be over? Why is it they've glammed up and feminized Queen Latifah (who's a big ol' butch in real time)? Do you think Queen Latifah would be making money the way she is if she were to come out? What happened to Wanda Sykes career after she came out? She certainly doesn't have her own sitcom anymore. Ellen's show went pretty much down the tubes after she came out.
*snip*

I have more to respond to this, but I gotta get back to work.

However I wanted to answer the academy award bit.

I get what you are saying...You are right, not many. I can only think of 2.
Jodie Foster
Ian McKellen

Of course, the rumors fly about Kevin Spacey and Phillip Seymour Hoffman

[SassyLeo]

Apparently Josh Brolin and James Franco are the same dude?

HA!

All along, I meant James Franco.

Clearly my 10 days without coffee is bad for my memory.

And also, I think he was a risky choice for Milk. In that is was a risk for him to play a gay man, when he has a straight girl/teen/woman following as a "hot actor"

He doesn't seem to be hurting for roles these days.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Your points are valid

Soooo, Sean Penn donated a suit he didn't even pay for? Wow! That must have been tough for him to part with, eh? While a majority of the money he made (and academy award that should have gone into the queer community) gets spent in straightdom. While, had a queer actor had this role, it would have A) made queer actors more visible, B) would have mainstreamed queerdom even a little more, C) would have put more queer money into the queer economy, D) would have opened more doors between queers and straightdom.

Why is it no one can name a queer actor who's won an academy award? Why is it that when an actor comes out as queer, he/she no longer really has a career? Do you think if, say, George Clooney came out, his career would pretty much be over? Why is it they've glammed up and feminized Queen Latifah (who's a big ol' butch in real time)? Do you think Queen Latifah would be making money the way she is if she were to come out? What happened to Wanda Sykes career after she came out? She certainly doesn't have her own sitcom anymore. Ellen's show went pretty much down the tubes after she came out. Do you think 'Milk' would have made the same amount of money without a completely straight cast? How many straight people benefitted and made gads of money in Milk? How many queers? How many queers suffered to make the story of Milk? How many queers died to make that story? Now, how many straight people made gads of money off of that suffering while not one queer played a queer, because 'real' queers aren't palatable or profitable enough for mainstream America? How about that movie NJFemmie posted a pic from? How many trans folks and gender variant people suffer everyday, so straight/cis actors can make a killing off of making gender variance 'humorous' and palatable for mainstream America? And how about RuPaul? Wouldn't that have been a prime opportunity to cast a gender variant person? Oh, but wait, it wouldn't have been a) funny or b) profitable. Oh, and how about The Birdcage and Robin Williams and that other guy who's name I can't remember. Oh, or Brokeback Mountain.

Here's the thing, had queer played themselves, more of that millions of dollars paid to those actors would be back INSIDE the queer community, making the queer community stronger. Generally speaking, do you think queers would have given more money to fighting Prop 8 or do you think queers would have given token donations to a school? Do you think queer academy award winners would be speaking out against Prop 8 and using whatever big name leverage they have against Prop 8 or giving a suit to a non-profit? When queers make money, the queer community (generally) makes money...money that is used to fight hate crimes bills, Mormons, support queers with jobs, etc. When that money is given to straights, more of that money stays in the straight community...at the expense of queers. AND stereotypes are perpetuated.

And again, can you explain to me how straights playing queers is different from blackface and/or men playing women (as in Shakespeare days when women weren't allowed to act), etc from a dynamic of power/oppression? I mean, even now, women only make up 29% of speaking roles in major movies, and only 3 of 100 films are directed by women. Is that sexism or just 'directing'. I have a really hard time believing ANYONE here would be in agreement with men playing all the roles of women in major movies and would just call it 'acting'.


Dylan

So, here's the thing. I pretty much agree with you on all of this. I am not denying that society/media/entertainment is still homophobic. I would love to see more Queer actors and especially in big roles. And I am sure they are out there. Ones who are fucking amazing! Yes, it absolutely sucks that we don't have as much visibility.

Before I was alive, my mom lived and worked in Hollywood. One of her oldest friends is a gay man who worked in the industry as well. He was actually in Rebel Without A Cause (woohoo 15 minutes of fame! not really, he actually did OK for himself). He totally could not be OUT. Of course it was the 50's and that would have killed any career he imagined. He came out much later in life.

Ellen may have suffered some initially, but she is certainly not suffering now. In fact, quite the opposite. Jodie Foster has had a strange go of it the last few years. Wanda Sykes...doesn't she have a show on Fox? The Wanda Sykes Show? I thought Queen Latifah was OUT? I read somewhere that she and her partner were talking marriage. I could be wrong about that...

What I don't want to do is lose sight of the progress that has been made. I think it is important to continue to acknowledge it, make note of change, even if it is small.

[Diva]

So.....I watched the clip......and skimmed through the rest of this stuff.....

And all I could think was.....did no one ELSE take issue with the DELIVERY of said kiss beSTOWED on the lush, lovely, supple and fully delicious lips of one Ms. M. HardlyGay?

I mean, come ON. I wouldn't be on that Drive~by(thru) Menu either!

Carry on.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Diva

So.....I watched the clip......and skimmed through the rest of this stuff.....

And all I could think was.....did no one ELSE take issue with the DELIVERY of said kiss beSTOWED on the lush, lovely, supple and fully delicious lips of one Ms. M. HardlyGay?

I mean, come ON. I wouldn't be on that Drive~by(thru) Menu either!

Carry on.

Hahahaha! It was more of a lunge than a kiss. Not hot!
"Hardlygay"- LMAO.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Diva

So.....I watched the clip......and skimmed through the rest of this stuff.....

And all I could think was.....did no one ELSE take issue with the DELIVERY of said kiss beSTOWED on the lush, lovely, supple and fully delicious lips of one Ms. M. HardlyGay?

I mean, come ON. I wouldn't be on that Drive~by(thru) Menu either!

Carry on.

I agree, the kiss sucked!

[Write14u]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I agree, the kiss sucked!

See...they needed ME to give her a good kiss. WTF were they thinking? I mean, come on! *grin*

ETA: Actually, as fun as that would be, I'd still jump in the "Kiss Melina Kanakaredes" line first (Stella, NY:CSI)
Mmmmmmmmm
*grin*

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

First-
I attended the premier showing of Milk here in Portland. Gus Van Sant lives here and donates a TON of money to our community as well as other non-profits. He hosted the event along with Josh Brolin. All of the proceeds from our premier were donated to Outside In, which, among other programs has several LGBTQ programs including a TRANS health clinic.
Sean Penn donated one of the suits he wore in the movie to charity which was auctioned off to support 2 non-profits, one being the Hetrick-Martin Institute, home of the Harvey Milk High School in New York City. He also is a huge supporter of the No on Prop 8 initiatives. Gus Van Sant also donated to the No on Prop 8 campaign.

Sure, it is not millions…well, actually I don't know for sure. I'm not privvy to private donations made to orgs. I sorta see your point, however...

Second-
A well-known straight actor portrayed a super Queer one. And who knows maybe a Queer actor could have played the part just as well. I’m of course, supporting that. OF COURSE!

In this case, I think because a well know actor (regardless of gay or not) acted the part and WELL, tons of awareness was raised about Queers!

Levi’s (you know, the jeans?) launched a huge campaign with, again the Hetrick-Martin Insitute, to raise funds to provide financial stability for the Harvey Milk School. I think it was like $500,000…? Because of the movie!

I’m not saying, let’s bust out some gold medals for Sean Penn or Gus Van Sant based on the info I just pointed out, but NONE is a big statement to make.

Glad to read this. The visibility helps.

[Dylan]

Sassy,

Why on Earth would anyone go without coffee for ten days?


Dylan

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Sassy,

Why on Earth would anyone go without coffee for ten days?


Dylan

Oh crap, well... on Jan 4th, I stopped eating processed sugars and cut way down on carbs. Then a few weekends ago, I got food poisoning and barely ate for week, which included no coffee. So, I thought...eh, I'm already kind of cutting out stuff, let's see how I fare without coffee.

Honestly, I miss it. But I'm determined to try without it for one month to see how different I feel.

My boss said to me this morning: "You're so quiet. What's going on?"

Clearly it is having some kind of affect on me. Effect?

[Soon]

An Open Letter to the Closeted Leading Man

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

An Open Letter to the Closeted Leading Man

It'll be very interesting to see if someone does it. It occurs to me that many of the rumored A-list closet cases have gone to such great lengths to establish a straight facade by the time they reach superstardom, that were they to come out belatedly they might be regarded as enormous liars in addition to being gay men. Not sure how that would work out for someone like John Travolta or Tom Cruise at this stage in their career.
As the boomer generation of A-listers retires and dies some interesting revelations will probably "come out".

[Selenay]

Originally Posted by Dylan

So, let's take 'Milk' as an example. How much money did that movie make? A ton, right? And how much money did, let's say, Sean Penn make from that movie? A ton, right (comparatively speaking)? And how much of that money was made OFF of the queer community/queer history/etc? All of it, right? That was a movie about queer rights, based on queer history, etc. And how much of that money went back into to the queer community? To my knowledge NONE of it went back into the queer community.

To say that "none" of it went back is a false statement.

Sean Penn openly lobbied for legislation to honor Harvey Milk, long after Oscar season was over. Would he have done this, had he not been involved? Hard to say.

Milk's screenwriter was honored at a charity ball in June, with all of the proceeds going to Lifeworks, an organization that offers mentoring opportunities for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender youth.

The clothing worn by Penn during Milk, also was auctioned off with some of the proceeds going to the Hetrick-Martin Institute, home of the Harvey Milk High School.


How much of the proceeds from heterosexual films in which roles are played by gay actors go to queer communities? Just a thought.