Are butches really a dying breed?

[alexri]

I don't think butches are a dying breed... but what I do notice is...
1) how many people put in their dating profiles online that they are a femme who only wants a femme or a sporty femme
2) how many butches do not self-identify as butch because they feel like they will be boxed into a role... they seem to feel like they have more freedom if they identify as andro.

I definitely feel outnumbered as a butch where I am. It seems there are an overwhelming number of butches, and a large number of femmes who are not interested in butches.

[shiagirl]

Not in my world they are not a dying breed.

[Bleu]

Originally Posted by shiagirl

Not in my world they are not a dying breed.

Amen, sister.
~Bleu

[JistMe]

There aren't many in my neck of the woods. I stick out like a sore thumb. Sometimes I feel like a crow at a beach full of seagulls. That's why I like this site. Keeps me from feeling like I'm floating away.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by alexri

I don't think butches are a dying breed... but what I do notice is...
1) how many people put in their dating profiles online that they are a femme who only wants a femme or a sporty femme
2) how many butches do not self-identify as butch because they feel like they will be boxed into a role... they seem to feel like they have more freedom if they identify as andro.

I definitely feel outnumbered as a butch where I am. It seems there are an overwhelming number of butches, and a large number of femmes who are not interested in butches.

First off, welcome to the site!

Secondly, I have a thought about your #2 statement. If the people you are talking about don't define as butch to begin with, then why do you say that they are "butches" that define as "andro"?

Also, what do you mean by "more freedom"? I am not trying to debate your statements at all, I am just curious about your thinking on this.

[alexri]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

First off, welcome to the site!

Secondly, I have a thought about your #2 statement. If the people you are talking about don't define as butch to begin with, then why do you say that they are "butches" that define as "andro"?

Also, what do you mean by "more freedom"? I am not trying to debate your statements at all, I am just curious about your thinking on this.

Thanks for the welcome! Most nights I post after a long day at work so I hope what I write makes sense.

What I mean is that I see more people automatically assuming that butch/fem = hetero male/female... that then the butch can't possibly be a switch or a sub sometimes.. that the butch is expected to take on all the stereotypical expectations of a straight male in a relationship... and that they call themselves andro instead so they have the freedom to not be assumed to be "the guy" 100 percent of the time. Does this make sense?

[Martina]

I don't think those folks are giving the butch-femme community the credit we deserve, but yes, it makes some sense.

I think a lot of younger folks think that butch-femme is very gender conformist and heteronormative. We do see some of that on this site. It used to be rampant on the other site. (I know there are more sites out there, but I can't keep up. I am old. I am referring to the dash site.)

Anyway, yes, a lot of people do think that if they ID as butch or femme, they will be expected to behave in specific ways and might be criticized if they don't. It has happened, as we all know. Not an irrational fear.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

I don't think those folks are giving the butch-femme community the credit we deserve, but yes, it makes some sense.

I think a lot of younger folks think that butch-femme is very gender conformist and heteronormative. We do see some of that on this site. It used to be rampant on the other site. (I know there are more sites out there, but I can't keep up. I am old. I am referring to the dash site.)

Anyway, yes, a lot of people do think that if they ID as butch or femme, they will be expected to behave in specific ways and might be criticized if they don't. It has happened, as we all know. Not an irrational fear.

Yes, but also, in my estimation, the bigger fear/risk is the alienation from the non b/f lesbian community.

[alexri]

Originally Posted by Martina

I don't think those folks are giving the butch-femme community the credit we deserve, but yes, it makes some sense.

Anyway, yes, a lot of people do think that if they ID as butch or femme, they will be expected to behave in specific ways and might be criticized if they don't. It has happened, as we all know. Not an irrational fear.

I see that and I agree with you. I also see it with people expecting that trans people aren't true trans if they won't have surgery or fully identify as the opposite gender, or when people question trans people who wind up having same-sex relationships after transitioning. It's frustrating when we want the rest of society not to judge us and then we judge among our own ranks.

[Jett]

I read this most recent exchange several days ago and it just feels itchy... how would an outside person is actually even begin discern this? That someone is really a butch but is identifying as something else because of expectations or peer pressure? I think my thing is, (because it wasn't explained) how and why are we assuming this person is a butch in the first place? Because of how they look? Their behaviors? Just because two things appear similar doesn't mean they are at all... but I think we all know this.

Ok, taking andro here because it's been put forth... I think andro as a personal ID is a complete and legit identity outside of butch and sometimes along with it but I'd say confidently unique from it in the majority of instances. It has some pretty specific features as a "rule" (dually or non-gendered) that aren't a "rule" in butch identity. I dunno, positing that any significant amount of people that identify as andro (or stud/tomboi/trans/etc. on and on) really aren't and are really butches in hiding and this phenomenon would be supposedly common enough to make a dent in the populous of the butch pool I think is a pretty damn big leap and seems slightly arrogant as well ("seems" I absolutely don't think it was intended that way). But what really is bothering me about the whole thing is I also believe it really appears to minimalize legitimicy of those all identities as separate- unique- important- valuble- equal and desired identities on their own and apart from butch (also perhaps taking away from butch also by kind of just throwing everything under the sun in the pot).

Do I think butches are a dying breed? No I don't and I don't think they ever will be. But I do think that a lot of people who have (or would have) identified with "butch" in the past did because it maybe seemed the only or closest option and those particular identities are now finding better ID's/terms (for them)... or even older reclaimed, revamped or renewed ones that more closely and clearly suit them in their own unique path. I'd assume if someone ID's in a certain way that that is what they are and that only a miniscule fraction would NOT identify with their true selves because of what they percieve others to think.

Is it personal to me? Yes and no... yes I identified as a butch for over two decades and I now identify as a tomboi (as in queer tomboi not straight ones as I personally think there's a big difference)... SOLELY because tomboi is for the most part much more specific to me, more specific in appearance, the sex the vast vast majority of tombois/y's personally associate with and most especially the behaviors, like and dislikes... and no it's not personal because really for all intents and purposes at the end of today when I've got my girl under my arm and a movie in the DVD player I could really give two shits about gender theory or what anyone else thinks of what I am... I just am.

[CharmingButch25]

I am very butch and very much alive!!

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Martina

I don't think those folks are giving the butch-femme community the credit we deserve, but yes, it makes some sense.

I think a lot of younger folks think that butch-femme is very gender conformist and heteronormative. We do see some of that on this site. It used to be rampant on the other site. (I know there are more sites out there, but I can't keep up. I am old. I am referring to the dash site.)

Anyway, yes, a lot of people do think that if they ID as butch or femme, they will be expected to behave in specific ways and might be criticized if they don't. It has happened, as we all know. Not an irrational fear.

Not really. There are plenty of young butches and femmes. I would say that the typical advocates for this bullshit idea of butch and femme as "gender conformist and heteronormative" are gay men and certain lesbians. And they are typically academics teaching queer theory. I just think that younger butches and femmes aren't seeking out specific butch and femme communities as much as they used to anymore, but just relate as their identities to other growing and transforming communities around them. The only time I've heard that whole "gender conformist" spiel irl has been in queer theory classes led by white gay men or non-b/f lesbians. Some people just continue to want to make their own opinions reality for other people, but that doesn't mean that young queer folks are buying it. The number of young people still claiming femme and butch the queer community is still pretty high, and they aren't exactly words that have been thrown by the way side. People just interact with their own identities in relation to their own communities differently than in past generations. And especially as the queer/trans community continues to recognise its own diversity and self-determination as far as identity to a greater extent than it did in the past.

[Martina]

I live in the real world too, in a place where there is a large queer community, and, although I am old, I run into quite a few young folks. Just one example, I was at the Freight and Salvage in Berkeley and saw what looked to be a b-f couple. I asked if they ID'd as butch and femme, and they said "sometimes" and proceeded to explain that they were wary of the ID's for the reasons I discussed.

I haven't been to a queer theory class in decades.

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Not really. There are plenty of young butches and femmes. I would say that the typical advocates for this bullshit idea of butch and femme as "gender conformist and heteronormative" are gay men and certain lesbians. And they are typically academics teaching queer theory. I just think that younger butches and femmes aren't seeking out specific butch and femme communities as much as they used to anymore, but just relate as their identities to other growing and transforming communities around them. The only time I've heard that whole "gender conformist" spiel irl has been in queer theory classes led by white gay men or non-b/f lesbians. Some people just continue to want to make their own opinions reality for other people, but that doesn't mean that young queer folks are buying it. The number of young people still claiming femme and butch the queer community is still pretty high, and they aren't exactly words that have been thrown by the way side. People just interact with their own identities in relation to their own communities differently than in past generations. And especially as the queer/trans community continues to recognise its own diversity and self-determination as far as identity to a greater extent than it did in the past.