The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[BullDog]

Great thread and opening post Metro. How to carve out space as a butch woman? I have found that process to be a very difficult one in butch femme spaces, although I certainly don't think it should be.

Butch women are not a small group of butches sitting around worried that we are about to go extinct, as it is often claimed when butch women speak up about visibility. We are everywhere.

The male defaults for butches are due to sexism. Full stop.

I claim masculinity, but it is specifically within the context of being a woman, a female, and lesbian (and queer). It isn't something I can separate out from being a woman and female in any meaningful way.

I have at times struggled with claiming woman as part of my gender, but never as part of my social existence or as the human beings I most closely claim solidarity with. I am not sure, still, all the reasons for this. I think part of me was over thinking gender, and as Metro said, even butches fully claiming to be female can feel like they are looking at woman from the outside. I am sure there is some internalized sexism in their somewhere as well, no matter how hard I have fought against it.

However, in the face of some very harsh criticism I experienced when speaking up on behalf of butch women visibility within the last couple of years, I have fully reclaimed womanhood for myself. It is very empowering for me and does not at all take away from my butch identity.

To our allies, to me what is important, and what I believe is important to many butch women and female identified butches as well, is that we be recognized not just as masculine beings but as women and females as well. Simultaneously as Metro said. We are not butch lite because we are females and women, and when female and woman disappears from what is seen and acknowledged as butch, it is a very high price to pay.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Great thread and opening post Metro. How to carve out space as a butch woman? I have found that process to be a very difficult one in butch femme spaces, although I certainly don't think it should be.

Butch women are not a small group of butches sitting around worried that we are about to go extinct, as it is often claimed when butch women speak up about visibility. We are everywhere.

The male defaults for butches are due to sexism. Full stop.

I claim masculinity, but it is specifically within the context of being a woman, a female, and lesbian (and queer). It isn't something I can separate out from being a woman and female in any meaningful way.

I have at times struggled with claiming woman as part of my gender, but never as part of my social existence or as the human beings I most closely claim solidarity with. I am not sure, still, all the reasons for this. I think part of me was over thinking gender, and as Metro said, even butches fully claiming to be female can feel like they are looking at woman from the outside. I am sure there is some internalized sexism in their somewhere as well, no matter how hard I have fought against it.

However, in the face of some very harsh criticism I experienced when speaking up on behalf of butch women visibility within the last couple of years, I have fully reclaimed womanhood for myself. It is very empowering for me and does not at all take away from my butch identity.

To our allies, to me what is important, and what I believe is important to many butch women and female identified butches as well, is that we be recognized not just as masculine beings but as women and females as well. Simultaneously as Metro said. We are not butch lite because we are females and women, and when female and woman disappears from what is seen and acknowledged as butch, it is a very high price to pay.

Truth.

Unfortunately what it seems like to me from what I hear on the streets is Female ID'd butches are less likely to invest in spaces that seem to rate butch-ness (often) based on a binary spectrum where openly IDing as a female or women often automatically ends up relegated to the lesser end (being stereotyped). Some peeps just want to chill not feel on the defensive. Doesn't seem it's is a matter of not willing to fight the fight, or lack of numbers, most people just don't hang out if they don't feel supported or feel thought of as less than, it's that simple.

That needs to be changed.

I don't think it's the greater community in the "doing", just that it's less called out... seems like they say the answer is sometimes in the silence.

And then some of us are bull headed, but get tired too.

Ok, I have to run, wood to chop... going to be a cooler week.
Metro

(edited to add : Oh and Jack, it's cedar...

[Galahad]

Metropolis and Bulldog, Pushing the thanks button just wasn't enough for your posts. HUZZAH you two HUZZAH!!

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Truth.

Unfortunately what it seems like to me from what I hear on the streets is Female ID'd butches are less likely to invest in spaces that seem to rate butch-ness (often) based on a binary spectrum where openly IDing as a female or women often automatically ends up relegated to the lesser end (being stereotyped). Some peeps just want to chill not feel on the defensive. Doesn't seem it's is a matter of not willing to fight the fight, or lack of numbers, most people just don't hang out if they don't feel supported or feel thought of as less than, it's that simple.

That needs to be changed.

I don't think it's the greater community in the "doing", just that it's less called out... seems like they say the answer is sometimes in the silence.

And then some of us are bull headed, but get tired too.

Ok, I have to run, wood to chop... going to be a cooler week.
Metro

(edited to add : Oh and Jack, it's cedar...

No truer words were spoken.

And the Silence... it's telling.

[Jett]

Going back and reading my post I see some defensiveness, and I think about why there's even a need for it here, but it's here, so why... I think for myself the problem with what we're talking about here is it like bull said, it's especially noticeable in B-F communities (online) and it makes it feel even more personal.

First I'll say, I don't think, (as I said previously) that the greater butch femme community is sexist or misogynistic, but I do though see a lot of stuff slide. And truth, I hear that same complaint from many sides about transphobic remarks, sexist, misogynistic, anti-feminist, homophobic etc.

I think there's an overall phenomenon going on here (more than just being a cross section of humanity) and I don't think it's purposeful... (except where it is).

Seems there's so much in-fighting, covert and open between identities, and allies, that we're stuck defending ourselves against each other and as a result of feeling dissed by X, or not defended... maybe we tend not to defend X.

I started this thread for Female ID, Women ID Butches (and that's what it's going to be about) but that doesn't mean I don't hear the similar cries of foul from other identities just that this is my personal fight.

And, I still feel it's lop-sided, I still feel sexism and misogyny less called out and that feels personal, but perhaps standing along side each other (because despite the in-fighting I still see us as brothers and sisters) we'd get further, learn more about each other and just be a better ally all around. You can't fight anothers battle for them, but you can support them.

Truly we are different, and thus have different individual battles, but as queer masculine beings who were not born male we share a lot of the same grief from the greater world, and so by default the war.

I wanted to throw that out there though I want this thread to remain female ID and Women ID focused... but I believe it's an important consideration.

My half a cup of coffee to yours,
Metro

[Jett]

One thing I'd like to see talked about, and I think it's a huge problem... is the equating of Female ID and Women ID to soft or less masculine.

Frankly, honestly... truly...

... it's just plain sexist (and perhaps misogynistic where it's not being ignorant).

Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

[Luckydwg07]

"convey level of butchiness"
This is true to me....
Its a reason why I spend more time with my gay friends (men) and queens because we talk, joke & support each other's choices in life.
Its wonderful that we have this avenue to discuss but at the end of the day in my world I don't find any kinship with the butches I know but for 1
I find more freindship here online ...hell maybe its because I've been flying solo for so long? I'm a very appraochable person
I feel a competative nature everytime I am in a group of butchess its not fun it's more of a test! I careless what people think I'm made of and in the same breath wish for more understanding.

Thankyou for this thread

Originally Posted by Metropolis

One thing I'd like to see talked about, and I think it's a huge problem... is the equating of Female ID and Women ID to soft or less masculine.

Frankly, honestly... truly...

... it's just plain sexist (and perhaps misogynistic where it's not being ignorant).

Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

[Kobi]

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by Jett

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

hi to everyone reading this. I'm responding to something from 2 years ago but I believe it's salient still. Maybe this has been addressed already... the twin-souled or maybe not?
Historically, there have been women who are also like men and the men who are also like women. They are known in Native American tradition as twin spirited or twin-souled and traditionally are the spiritual leaders of the People since they are able to speak for both genders and can often commune with the Creator/Source. This is old Amazonian tradition. There have been Amazon women and transgendered since the dawn of time.
The links I posted did not mention that in 2000 years ago, Lybia was considered an Amazonian land and Lybia was known as Africa. Transgendered and genderqueer have historically been known as Shaman and the spiritual leaders of the People.
So how does a genderqueer (both) male-id or female id cope???? Bio-dudes can at times look at you and ponder, "Do I fuck or fight h/er?" and male ID or female ID can ignore the beautiful synergy that is the twinned-spirited. How does one express his and/or her soul? And how does one focus and find love in the chaos of our world?

[girl_dee]

i'd like to add that i am totally in love with how my butch partner embraces butch, woman and fierce in the world. Some of her town interactions (Firefighting for example) are male dominated and she rises above the cloud of patriarchal BS every time.

Her whole disposition is a hot and confident butch woman swagger.

[adorable]

I like you metro - I am coming to your thread. lol
I have tried to actually play peace maker between the female and male ID's in the past - which was promptly ignored....lol

Because I think it would be fabulous if we really could all get along - I will just throw this out there.

I was trying to explain to a male ID recently, who feels like he is a man inside TG - why female ID'd butches get so upset. What I told him I THINK it is - stems from female ID'd butches fighting their whole lives against a male centric society to be seen and accepted as masculine women. Only to have other people, who may look like them - dismiss that because that is not how they see themselves.

Ya'll have been having these arguments for a while and never seem to come to a resolution. As someone who comes from an outside place with no real leaning to one particular side what I see happen is almost always the same thing....
Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is insanity.

Here is my take:

The female ID's feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns are the default. They see that as evidence of misogyny. They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as masculine WOMEN. Then they question why male IDs need to switch from female pronouns at all. The mistake I think female IDs make is believing that male IDs use male pronouns to seem more butch then female IDs.

The male IDs feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns as the default are questioned. They see that as evidence of people trying to take away their ID (especially on line.) They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as MEN. Then they question why male IDs are trying to be excluded from the site. The mistake male IDs make is believing that female IDs are actually trying to exclude them.

What is so very sad to me is that as Butches regardless of pronoun have very similar real life experiences. The world sees you the same. The struggle is similar but because you come from such very different places the goal is different. How you FEEL inside is different. And because the reasons for what you do, how you dress and who you are are NOT the same - lines are drawn in the sand. Even though the argument always becomes about the power play of the internal female vs male centric society - I don't believe at all that is what is truly being played out in threads.

Yes, people do default to male pronouns. Misogyny is the "hatred" of women. I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred. Yet, it's a loaded word that is thrown around alot. In my opinion, it is abused online and used to settle scores.

Coming from a female centered place, male pronouns set off red flags. Coming from a male centered place, they make them feel included.

It's frustrating to watch the "collective" you attempt to argue endlessly about things when the two sides involved are having completely seperate converstations.

Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.

[BullDog]

As a butch woman who can be rather outspoken at times, hearing that we masculine types are involved in some sort of turf war or jockeying for position really does irritate me. It makes me feel that when I speak up I am really not being listened to or taken seriously. I feel it's being viewed as a petty squabble. Calm down kids and play nicely.

Speaking from my own point of view, individual's personal pronoun preferences, gender identities, or decisions to transition does not impact me personally one whit. I fully support everyone to make the best choices for themselves.

I also don't think there is limited turf- like we are on an island where only 99 masculine type people can fit and I need to shove a transman off into the ocean or throw a male id'd butch under a bus in order to grab my space on the isle of BeeEffdom or QueerDom. I don't belong to a certain gang that wears a specific color bandana duking it out against the other dudes. You know it sounds like West Side Story or something.

Butch women are told to claim space and speak up and then when they attempt to do so are told to stop fighting.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male identified people. when male pronouns are uses as the default and seen as a form of respect for butches, and when it doubt use them so as to be sure not to offend anyone who hates being called she or a woman, that's sexist. People are very quick to point out they are not women or not lesbian. What people don't seem to be so quick about is honoring the female and woman part of butch- which is part of what many butches are and live every day. Butch woman are also many times seen as a small sliver of butch, a subset- when I don't believe that is the case at all out in the real world.

People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.

When I speak out, when I see other butch women speak out, from my perspective we are claiming space (not turf)- space that is rightfully ours. We are using our voices, we are letting everyone know hey we are still here. We're here, we're queer, we're lesbian and queer masculine females and women- we are proud to be Butch and proud to be Female and proud to be Women- and it's really sexist to squelch that part of Butch. We are not going away. We are the heart and soul of butch and live as visibly queer and lesbian masculine females every day of our lives. Damn right we aren't going to go quietly into the night. That has nothing to do with a turf war or shoving anyone under the bus to me.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by BullDog

As a butch woman who can be rather outspoken at times, hearing that we masculine types are involved in some sort of turf war or jockeying for position really does irritate me. It makes me feel that when I speak up I am really not being listened to or taken seriously. I feel it's being viewed as a petty squabble. Calm down kids and play nicely.

Speaking from my own point of view, individual's personal pronoun preferences, gender identities, or decisions to transition does not impact me personally one whit. I fully support everyone to make the best choices for themselves.

I also don't think there is limited turf- like we are on an island where only 99 masculine type people can fit and I need to shove a transman off into the ocean or throw a male id'd butch under a bus in order to grab my space on the isle of BeeEffdom or QueerDom. I don't belong to a certain gang that wears a specific color bandana duking it out against the other dudes. You know it sounds like West Side Story or something.

Butch women are told to claim space and speak up and then when they attempt to do so are told to stop fighting.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male identified people. when male pronouns are uses as the default and seen as a form of respect for butches, and when it doubt use them so as to be sure not to offend anyone who hates being called she or a woman, that's sexist. People are very quick to point out they are not women or not lesbian. What people don't seem to be so quick about is honoring the female and woman part of butch- which is part of what many butches are and live every day. Butch woman are also many times seen as a small sliver of butch, a subset- when I don't believe that is the case at all out in the real world.

People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.

When I speak out, when I see other butch women speak out, from my perspective we are claiming space (not turf)- space that is rightfully ours. We are using our voices, we are letting everyone know hey we are still here. We're here, we're queer, we're lesbian and queer masculine females and women- we are proud to be Butch and proud to be Female and proud to be Women- and it's really sexist to squelch that part of Butch. We are not going away. We are the heart and soul of butch and live as visibly queer and lesbian masculine females every day of our lives. Damn right we aren't going to go quietly into the night. That has nothing to do with a turf war or shoving anyone under the bus to me.

So then what is there to argue about? Yet it happens over and over and over and over......
It apparently is MORE then a petty squabble but based on everything you said here what exactly is the "more important" fight? Is it the part I highlighted? Why does someone need to make sexism go away to feel comfortable in their skin? And why does there need to be a loftier goal of breaking down gender stereotypes when that is how people feel INSIDE?
On one hand you say: it doesn't matter to me one whit
On the other you seem to be saying something else entirely.

The second part I highlighted I hope that means for you personally because I think that everyone needs to live their own truth. Speaking up for YOURSELF makes sense to me. Speaking out against others because they are different seems rather unfair.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.

No, sexism is alive and well!

What I am amazed with is that feminism is what brought gender studies into being! I am so sick of the lack of historical knowledge and understanding of what a social movement is! feminism in its attempt to erradicate sexism, bring to light the negatives in sex-role stereotypes and fight the patriarchy, laid the foundation for transformation of the gender binary!


Ignorance continues as bliss! And thgere is no excuse for remaining ignorant here, as research into this is a click away! No one needs a degree to gain insight into the role of feminism in the development of gender enlightenment1

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

I like you metro - I am coming to your thread. lol
I have tried to actually play peace maker between the female and male ID's in the past - which was promptly ignored....lol

Because I think it would be fabulous if we really could all get along - I will just throw this out there.

I was trying to explain to a male ID recently, who feels like he is a man inside TG - why female ID'd butches get so upset. What I told him I THINK it is - stems from female ID'd butches fighting their whole lives against a male centric society to be seen and accepted as masculine women. Only to have other people, who may look like them - dismiss that because that is not how they see themselves.

Ya'll have been having these arguments for a while and never seem to come to a resolution. As someone who comes from an outside place with no real leaning to one particular side what I see happen is almost always the same thing....
Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is insanity.

Here is my take:

The female ID's feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns are the default. They see that as evidence of misogyny. They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as masculine WOMEN. Then they question why male IDs need to switch from female pronouns at all. The mistake I think female IDs make is believing that male IDs use male pronouns to seem more butch then female IDs.

The male IDs feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns as the default are questioned. They see that as evidence of people trying to take away their ID (especially on line.) They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as MEN. Then they question why male IDs are trying to be excluded from the site. The mistake male IDs make is believing that female IDs are actually trying to exclude them.

What is so very sad to me is that as Butches regardless of pronoun have very similar real life experiences. The world sees you the same. The struggle is similar but because you come from such very different places the goal is different. How you FEEL inside is different. And because the reasons for what you do, how you dress and who you are are NOT the same - lines are drawn in the sand. Even though the argument always becomes about the power play of the internal female vs male centric society - I don't believe at all that is what is truly being played out in threads.

Yes, people do default to male pronouns. Misogyny is the "hatred" of women. I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred. Yet, it's a loaded word that is thrown around alot. In my opinion, it is abused online and used to settle scores.

Coming from a female centered place, male pronouns set off red flags. Coming from a male centered place, they make them feel included.

It's frustrating to watch the "collective" you attempt to argue endlessly about things when the two sides involved are having completely seperate converstations.

Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.

This all is a consideration, and said something kind of similar in my post (two above yours). But...

... it doesn't change the fact that Female ID and Women ID Butches do have to deal with ID specific issues and need a space to do so. We face sexism and yes misogynistic remarks in these types forums... more so than (speaking for myself) in other areas in relation to the ID itself. Just as others do face isms and phobias due to their own unique ID and situations.

Defaults in pronouns are really just the tip of the iceburg, we face having our "butchness" or masculinity questioned due to the words female and women... we face remarks about lesbian (those of us who ID as one) meaning we like particular a sexual position, 69 to be exact... we face our personal issues being consided less in need of discussion or as an affront (did you go in the other masculine ID specific threads and post?)... etc. etc. We face sexism in our own community from all directions AND misogyny yes, because we've existed in a patriarchal world. Were not immune to it just because we're female, or masculine females or males, many women face internal misogyny and it can come out sideways or direct.

That said... most importantly... this thread isn't about "us and them", my first post pointed out that it comes from all directions... nor is this thread a continuation of the in-fighting (and I hope it doesn't degrade or get baited into that resulting in complete disintegration of space again)... it's not about "them", it's about us and how we deal and can try to cope with what we face specific to our ID.

I appreciate your post, and all due respect (I like you too) but it's a hell of a lot deeper than pronouns... or any one other specific ID, at least from my vantage point.

P.S. Just FYI, the problem is not only that the default is male... but that there is a default at all, perhaps these discussion can bring the crux of the issues like that some greater light (and I believe the defaults would fall more under sexism than misogyny, just to be clear).

P.S.S. I know how the defaults came about so no need to explain.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Metropolis;62901]
the problem is not only that the default is male... but that there is a default at all, perhaps these discussion can bring the crux of the issues like that some greater light (and I believe the defaults would fall more under sexism than misogyny, just to be clear).

QUOTE]

So much to be discussed here and these points (in red) I feel are very important.

Thank you for this space, Metro. I sure hope it remains a place for us to study and disect the issues your OP stated and not get side tracked with TG, etc. arguments. That is just not what this is all about! We need to own our own shit as well as tell our stories, give support, and hopefully leave an intelligent, coherent legacy.

Just hope our space to do this in is respected. We have a lot of work to do- without comparisons!

[Martina]

Originally Posted by adorable

I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred.

i wish that were true. It is not, unfortunately.

[Martina]

One thing i like about the real world -- the world where people are not so gender savvy -- is that there are a lot of butches blissfully ignorant of this whole argument. Butches who ID as butch and who are not fussed by all this. i love that. i like to recall that that is MOST butches in the U.S. i think there are a minority of them who would benefit from this extra knowledge, those who would find more of a home here than they do in their own various worlds. i hope that those people find an online or r/t community like ours that accepts them. But i am somewhat grateful that the vast majority of butches go through their lives blissfully ignorant of these problems, not made to question their "butchness," not pitted against other butches, not criticized by ill-informed and immature femmes. i am happy that they don't know we exist.