The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[adorable]

I like you metro - I am coming to your thread. lol
I have tried to actually play peace maker between the female and male ID's in the past - which was promptly ignored....lol

Because I think it would be fabulous if we really could all get along - I will just throw this out there.

I was trying to explain to a male ID recently, who feels like he is a man inside TG - why female ID'd butches get so upset. What I told him I THINK it is - stems from female ID'd butches fighting their whole lives against a male centric society to be seen and accepted as masculine women. Only to have other people, who may look like them - dismiss that because that is not how they see themselves.

Ya'll have been having these arguments for a while and never seem to come to a resolution. As someone who comes from an outside place with no real leaning to one particular side what I see happen is almost always the same thing....
Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is insanity.

Here is my take:

The female ID's feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns are the default. They see that as evidence of misogyny. They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as masculine WOMEN. Then they question why male IDs need to switch from female pronouns at all. The mistake I think female IDs make is believing that male IDs use male pronouns to seem more butch then female IDs.

The male IDs feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns as the default are questioned. They see that as evidence of people trying to take away their ID (especially on line.) They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as MEN. Then they question why male IDs are trying to be excluded from the site. The mistake male IDs make is believing that female IDs are actually trying to exclude them.

What is so very sad to me is that as Butches regardless of pronoun have very similar real life experiences. The world sees you the same. The struggle is similar but because you come from such very different places the goal is different. How you FEEL inside is different. And because the reasons for what you do, how you dress and who you are are NOT the same - lines are drawn in the sand. Even though the argument always becomes about the power play of the internal female vs male centric society - I don't believe at all that is what is truly being played out in threads.

Yes, people do default to male pronouns. Misogyny is the "hatred" of women. I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred. Yet, it's a loaded word that is thrown around alot. In my opinion, it is abused online and used to settle scores.

Coming from a female centered place, male pronouns set off red flags. Coming from a male centered place, they make them feel included.

It's frustrating to watch the "collective" you attempt to argue endlessly about things when the two sides involved are having completely seperate converstations.

Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.

[BullDog]

As a butch woman who can be rather outspoken at times, hearing that we masculine types are involved in some sort of turf war or jockeying for position really does irritate me. It makes me feel that when I speak up I am really not being listened to or taken seriously. I feel it's being viewed as a petty squabble. Calm down kids and play nicely.

Speaking from my own point of view, individual's personal pronoun preferences, gender identities, or decisions to transition does not impact me personally one whit. I fully support everyone to make the best choices for themselves.

I also don't think there is limited turf- like we are on an island where only 99 masculine type people can fit and I need to shove a transman off into the ocean or throw a male id'd butch under a bus in order to grab my space on the isle of BeeEffdom or QueerDom. I don't belong to a certain gang that wears a specific color bandana duking it out against the other dudes. You know it sounds like West Side Story or something.

Butch women are told to claim space and speak up and then when they attempt to do so are told to stop fighting.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male identified people. when male pronouns are uses as the default and seen as a form of respect for butches, and when it doubt use them so as to be sure not to offend anyone who hates being called she or a woman, that's sexist. People are very quick to point out they are not women or not lesbian. What people don't seem to be so quick about is honoring the female and woman part of butch- which is part of what many butches are and live every day. Butch woman are also many times seen as a small sliver of butch, a subset- when I don't believe that is the case at all out in the real world.

People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.

When I speak out, when I see other butch women speak out, from my perspective we are claiming space (not turf)- space that is rightfully ours. We are using our voices, we are letting everyone know hey we are still here. We're here, we're queer, we're lesbian and queer masculine females and women- we are proud to be Butch and proud to be Female and proud to be Women- and it's really sexist to squelch that part of Butch. We are not going away. We are the heart and soul of butch and live as visibly queer and lesbian masculine females every day of our lives. Damn right we aren't going to go quietly into the night. That has nothing to do with a turf war or shoving anyone under the bus to me.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by BullDog

As a butch woman who can be rather outspoken at times, hearing that we masculine types are involved in some sort of turf war or jockeying for position really does irritate me. It makes me feel that when I speak up I am really not being listened to or taken seriously. I feel it's being viewed as a petty squabble. Calm down kids and play nicely.

Speaking from my own point of view, individual's personal pronoun preferences, gender identities, or decisions to transition does not impact me personally one whit. I fully support everyone to make the best choices for themselves.

I also don't think there is limited turf- like we are on an island where only 99 masculine type people can fit and I need to shove a transman off into the ocean or throw a male id'd butch under a bus in order to grab my space on the isle of BeeEffdom or QueerDom. I don't belong to a certain gang that wears a specific color bandana duking it out against the other dudes. You know it sounds like West Side Story or something.

Butch women are told to claim space and speak up and then when they attempt to do so are told to stop fighting.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male identified people. when male pronouns are uses as the default and seen as a form of respect for butches, and when it doubt use them so as to be sure not to offend anyone who hates being called she or a woman, that's sexist. People are very quick to point out they are not women or not lesbian. What people don't seem to be so quick about is honoring the female and woman part of butch- which is part of what many butches are and live every day. Butch woman are also many times seen as a small sliver of butch, a subset- when I don't believe that is the case at all out in the real world.

People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.

When I speak out, when I see other butch women speak out, from my perspective we are claiming space (not turf)- space that is rightfully ours. We are using our voices, we are letting everyone know hey we are still here. We're here, we're queer, we're lesbian and queer masculine females and women- we are proud to be Butch and proud to be Female and proud to be Women- and it's really sexist to squelch that part of Butch. We are not going away. We are the heart and soul of butch and live as visibly queer and lesbian masculine females every day of our lives. Damn right we aren't going to go quietly into the night. That has nothing to do with a turf war or shoving anyone under the bus to me.

So then what is there to argue about? Yet it happens over and over and over and over......
It apparently is MORE then a petty squabble but based on everything you said here what exactly is the "more important" fight? Is it the part I highlighted? Why does someone need to make sexism go away to feel comfortable in their skin? And why does there need to be a loftier goal of breaking down gender stereotypes when that is how people feel INSIDE?
On one hand you say: it doesn't matter to me one whit
On the other you seem to be saying something else entirely.

The second part I highlighted I hope that means for you personally because I think that everyone needs to live their own truth. Speaking up for YOURSELF makes sense to me. Speaking out against others because they are different seems rather unfair.

[BullDog]

Adorable, who is speaking out against anyone?

If there are people who want to ignore sexism that is their choice, but I don't see how we can be breaking down any gender stereotypes without getting to the roots of sexism.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

So then what is there to argue about? Yet it happens over and over and over and over......
It apparently is MORE then a petty squabble but based on everything you said here what exactly is the "more important" fight? Is it the part I highlighted? Why does someone need to make sexism go away to feel comfortable in their skin? And why does there need to be a loftier goal of breaking down gender stereotypes when that is how people feel INSIDE?
On one hand you say: it doesn't matter to me one whit
On the other you seem to be saying something else entirely.

The second part I highlighted I hope that means for you personally because I think that everyone needs to live their own truth. Speaking up for YOURSELF makes sense to me. Speaking out against others because they are different seems rather unfair.

Why are you inferring this is an argument against others rather than one for ourselves?

Do you see other discussions between specific masculine ID groups as an affront to everyone else, rather than discussion of ID related issues good and bad? Have you enter those conversations with your points?

This is not an argument... unless you make it one. This thread is not about male ID... unless you make it one.

I for one am hoping it can be about Female ID and Women ID.

[Apocalipstic]

I just wanted to say that I support you, your thread and Bull Dykes everywhere!

[Jett]

I think a problem lay in interpretation.

Say: I have an issue with defaulting to male pronouns as a Female Women ID... it should be considered that, I'm having a problem because it affects me personally in my ID... I'm being referred to as a sex I don't identify with. Male ID aren't bitching about it ONLY because it's defaulting to male pronoun. My calling it, is NOT saying it's their fault (nor saying they're the ones doing it). BUT it is hard to express my dilemma w/o acknowledging the "gender" of the default... and the misinterpretation lay in peeps hearing that an argument or Female versus Male.

It's not, and... it's not. I support and respect all my male ID friends (and acquaintances) in their pronoun choices.... always...

... what I am saying though is... respect me in mine.

This is one small issue, defaults, and I'm just using it as an example of why I believe speaking up for oneself continually gets taken as an affront to others. And probably a fair example of why Female ID's face unique challenges in these forums as another very masculine ID among many... just as butch as________... but in being acknowledged for being female as well... neither should take away from the other.

Bottom line... this thread is about Female ID and Women ID related issues... and to be taken as an affront to any other ID is to totally misinterpreting the intention.

[adorable]

Metro - I get the meaning of your OP. I had just been thinking about what I put out there. I didn't mean to derail the thread. lol. Or omg! start an argument. I wouldn't. I would ask for clarification though...because it does often seem like there is some miscommunication going on. I've always wondered why were just aren't all on the same side.

But if this thread is just for female ID butches that won't happen. <--and that is NOT intended to be sarcastic - that is geniune. I understand the space.

Atlast - history is understood but forgotten over time. That is why almost everything that happens repeats itself.

Bulldog - I wasn't trying to start nuttin' pinky swear. lol. Just thinking about what I thought is all. Then thinking about what you thought.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

Metro - I get the meaning of your OP. I had just been thinking about what I put out there. I didn't mean to derail the thread. lol. Or omg! start an argument. I wouldn't. I would ask for clarification though...because it does often seem like there is some miscommunication going on. I've always wondered why were just aren't all on the same side.

But if this thread is just for female ID butches that won't happen. <--and that is NOT intended to be sarcastic - that is geniune. I understand the space.

Atlast - history is understood but forgotten over time. That is why almost everything that happens repeats itself.

Bulldog - I wasn't trying to start nuttin' pinky swear. lol. Just thinking about what I thought is all. Then thinking about what you thought.

This space isn't "Female ID and Male ID- the Wars"... it's "The Strong Female/Women ID Butch in a Patriarchal World" the title should explain it's purpose in and of itself. This thread is very simply intended to have provide equal space for Female ID's and Women ID's to discuss unique issues related to that ID in the real world and online spaces... and everywhere.

That's it... female versus male isn't the subject of the thread.

I have more thoughts/responses (on subject) but don't have time...

Thanx everyone

Edited add- We are on the same side (well most of us I'd like to believe), and also I've received reps from male ID for this thread... and really appreciate that it's being respected.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

This space isn't "Female ID and Male ID- the Wars"... it's "The Strong Female/Women ID Butch in a Patriarchal World" the title should explain it's purpose in and of itself. This thread is very simply intended to have provide equal space for Female ID's and Women ID's to discuss unique issues related to that ID in the real world and online spaces... and everywhere.

That's it... female versus male isn't the subject of the thread.

I have more thoughts/responses (on subject) but don't have time...

Thanx everyone

Edited add- We are on the same side (well most of us I'd like to believe), and also I've received reps from male ID for this thread... and really appreciate that it's being respected.

Have to add that I too, am getting positive reps about my posts from male-ided/trans/intergendered folks. They understand, respect, and support the thread and also know we are all on the same side and are not in the least bit put off (or defensive) with our taking a look at what is unique to the female-identified butch. They get it! and know that I return mutual respect and understanding And I appreciate this very much. I honestly see BFPlanet as a site that can finally be a place where we can have harmony. I feel very fortunate to have these kinds of butch friends.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.

No, sexism is alive and well!

What I am amazed with is that feminism is what brought gender studies into being! I am so sick of the lack of historical knowledge and understanding of what a social movement is! feminism in its attempt to erradicate sexism, bring to light the negatives in sex-role stereotypes and fight the patriarchy, laid the foundation for transformation of the gender binary!


Ignorance continues as bliss! And thgere is no excuse for remaining ignorant here, as research into this is a click away! No one needs a degree to gain insight into the role of feminism in the development of gender enlightenment1

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

No, sexism is alive and well!

What I am amazed with is that feminism is what brought gender studies into being! I am so sick of the lack of historical knowledge and understanding of what a social movement is! feminism in its attempt to erradicate sexism, bring to light the negatives in sex-role stereotypes and fight the patriarchy, laid the foundation for transformation of the gender binary!


Ignorance continues as bliss! And thgere is no excuse for remaining ignorant here, as research into this is a click away! No one needs a degree to gain insight into the role of feminism in the development of gender enlightenment1

Yes, absolutely, AtLast. Many cultures acknowledge more than two genders, so I certainly believe in gender diversity or having more than two genders recognized.

I do agree with you that feminism has paved the way for many things, including gender studies and being able to critically examine the gender binary.

Sexism is rooted in limiting what woman can be. Sexism is about assigning gender stereotypes to women based on one's sex (female). Men then also are assigned stereotypes as well. It has consequences far beyond how we internally feel about ourselves or how we are acknowledged in terms of our gender, as we all know.

Certainly not everyone who is biologically female has to embrace woman as their gender or one of their genders, but unless we get to the roots of sexism and speak out against the gender stereotypes assigned to women, I don't see how any genders can be free. I also don't see having 5, 12, 86 or infinite genders as in itself fighing the binary or gender stereotypes in any meaningful way other than we all get to have our own personal id.

Appreciating gender diversity is certainly something I think we all want to do and strive to do better, but it's not freeing us from gender stereotypes or sexism or other societal inequalities, it just gives us more individual choice. I also don't think our individual choices will be honored unless we speak out and fight against what's really holding us back. If our society and queer communities remain as sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. as they are now, our individual ids will not be honored in any meaningful way.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by BullDog

To our allies, to me what is important, and what I believe is important to many butch women and female identified butches as well, is that we be recognized not just as masculine beings but as women and females as well.

Yes, Bully. I am not worried about anyone in real time or online "seeing" my masculinity; in fact, that's laughable to me. Yet, I think for others that may be a real issue that feeds some personal need to erase "woman" from "butch"-- even if that's regarding others. For me, and for many I know who ID as butch women, the "woman" part is what's lost, obscured, unacknowledged, or disrespected in real time and online. I don't fit anybody's notion of woman based on social constructs and definitions -- which absolutely always do come into play.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

To see female ID'd or butch women characterized as less masculine or not as butch really is ironic, irritating, and irksome considering my daily experience of walking through the world and being perceived as too masculine/butch. It would be funny if I didn't have to deal with the crap the world sends my way and then be confronted in queer spaces with the ridiculous attitudes and posturing surrounding the very idea of what butch is. While I have always looked to queer spaces for a place to find kinship and understanding, it's not all that fun to see myself defined by others in ways that aren't indicative of my reality.

Originally Posted by adorable

Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.

Yes, this would be lovely. Hope to see it happen someday.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Bottom line... this thread is about Female ID and Women ID related issues... and to be taken as an affront to any other ID is to totally misinterpreting the intention.

Met, misinterpretations are beyond our control, but intention does count, and yours is clear. Thank you for taking the space.

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by AtLast

No, sexism is alive and well!

What I am amazed with is that feminism is what brought gender studies into being! I am so sick of the lack of historical knowledge and understanding of what a social movement is! feminism in its attempt to erradicate sexism, bring to light the negatives in sex-role stereotypes and fight the patriarchy, laid the foundation for transformation of the gender binary!


Ignorance continues as bliss! And thgere is no excuse for remaining ignorant here, as research into this is a click away! No one needs a degree to gain insight into the role of feminism in the development of gender enlightenment1

My you're cute when you bring out the can of whoop-ass Yes, this is a re-argument of feminist theory. However not all have studied feminism 101. A

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

I like you metro - I am coming to your thread. lol
I have tried to actually play peace maker between the female and male ID's in the past - which was promptly ignored....lol

Because I think it would be fabulous if we really could all get along - I will just throw this out there.

I was trying to explain to a male ID recently, who feels like he is a man inside TG - why female ID'd butches get so upset. What I told him I THINK it is - stems from female ID'd butches fighting their whole lives against a male centric society to be seen and accepted as masculine women. Only to have other people, who may look like them - dismiss that because that is not how they see themselves.

Ya'll have been having these arguments for a while and never seem to come to a resolution. As someone who comes from an outside place with no real leaning to one particular side what I see happen is almost always the same thing....
Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is insanity.

Here is my take:

The female ID's feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns are the default. They see that as evidence of misogyny. They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as masculine WOMEN. Then they question why male IDs need to switch from female pronouns at all. The mistake I think female IDs make is believing that male IDs use male pronouns to seem more butch then female IDs.

The male IDs feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns as the default are questioned. They see that as evidence of people trying to take away their ID (especially on line.) They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as MEN. Then they question why male IDs are trying to be excluded from the site. The mistake male IDs make is believing that female IDs are actually trying to exclude them.

What is so very sad to me is that as Butches regardless of pronoun have very similar real life experiences. The world sees you the same. The struggle is similar but because you come from such very different places the goal is different. How you FEEL inside is different. And because the reasons for what you do, how you dress and who you are are NOT the same - lines are drawn in the sand. Even though the argument always becomes about the power play of the internal female vs male centric society - I don't believe at all that is what is truly being played out in threads.

Yes, people do default to male pronouns. Misogyny is the "hatred" of women. I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred. Yet, it's a loaded word that is thrown around alot. In my opinion, it is abused online and used to settle scores.

Coming from a female centered place, male pronouns set off red flags. Coming from a male centered place, they make them feel included.

It's frustrating to watch the "collective" you attempt to argue endlessly about things when the two sides involved are having completely seperate converstations.

Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.

This all is a consideration, and said something kind of similar in my post (two above yours). But...

... it doesn't change the fact that Female ID and Women ID Butches do have to deal with ID specific issues and need a space to do so. We face sexism and yes misogynistic remarks in these types forums... more so than (speaking for myself) in other areas in relation to the ID itself. Just as others do face isms and phobias due to their own unique ID and situations.

Defaults in pronouns are really just the tip of the iceburg, we face having our "butchness" or masculinity questioned due to the words female and women... we face remarks about lesbian (those of us who ID as one) meaning we like particular a sexual position, 69 to be exact... we face our personal issues being consided less in need of discussion or as an affront (did you go in the other masculine ID specific threads and post?)... etc. etc. We face sexism in our own community from all directions AND misogyny yes, because we've existed in a patriarchal world. Were not immune to it just because we're female, or masculine females or males, many women face internal misogyny and it can come out sideways or direct.

That said... most importantly... this thread isn't about "us and them", my first post pointed out that it comes from all directions... nor is this thread a continuation of the in-fighting (and I hope it doesn't degrade or get baited into that resulting in complete disintegration of space again)... it's not about "them", it's about us and how we deal and can try to cope with what we face specific to our ID.

I appreciate your post, and all due respect (I like you too) but it's a hell of a lot deeper than pronouns... or any one other specific ID, at least from my vantage point.

P.S. Just FYI, the problem is not only that the default is male... but that there is a default at all, perhaps these discussion can bring the crux of the issues like that some greater light (and I believe the defaults would fall more under sexism than misogyny, just to be clear).

P.S.S. I know how the defaults came about so no need to explain.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Metropolis;62901]
the problem is not only that the default is male... but that there is a default at all, perhaps these discussion can bring the crux of the issues like that some greater light (and I believe the defaults would fall more under sexism than misogyny, just to be clear).

QUOTE]

So much to be discussed here and these points (in red) I feel are very important.

Thank you for this space, Metro. I sure hope it remains a place for us to study and disect the issues your OP stated and not get side tracked with TG, etc. arguments. That is just not what this is all about! We need to own our own shit as well as tell our stories, give support, and hopefully leave an intelligent, coherent legacy.

Just hope our space to do this in is respected. We have a lot of work to do- without comparisons!

[Martina]

Originally Posted by adorable

I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred.

i wish that were true. It is not, unfortunately.

[Martina]

One thing i like about the real world -- the world where people are not so gender savvy -- is that there are a lot of butches blissfully ignorant of this whole argument. Butches who ID as butch and who are not fussed by all this. i love that. i like to recall that that is MOST butches in the U.S. i think there are a minority of them who would benefit from this extra knowledge, those who would find more of a home here than they do in their own various worlds. i hope that those people find an online or r/t community like ours that accepts them. But i am somewhat grateful that the vast majority of butches go through their lives blissfully ignorant of these problems, not made to question their "butchness," not pitted against other butches, not criticized by ill-informed and immature femmes. i am happy that they don't know we exist.

[Beau]

As a butch living in the real world, I believe very few, if any, butches exist who aren't painfully aware of the issues surrounding being butch - regardless of ID. I think all of us, as butches who live in a heterosexual/patriarchal society, have endured much questioning of our "butchness" from both the straight world and within gay/lesbian circles. I think we've been pitted against each other in many ways real time, and we've been criticized from all sides.

This is nothing new. It's just worse that it's occurring in a space we share in an attempt to find community with one another.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

As a butch living in the real world, I believe very few, if any, butches exist who aren't painfully aware of the issues surrounding being butch - regardless of ID. I think all of us, as butches who live in a heterosexual/patriarchal society, have endured much questioning of our "butchness" from both the straight world and within gay/lesbian circles. I think we've been pitted against each other in many ways real time, and we've been criticized from all sides.

This is nothing new. It's just worse that it's occurring in a space we share in an attempt to find community with one another.

i think all butches are aware of sexism and homophobia as it affects them on a daily basis. Are they aware of the many gender identities that exist and the biases common online and in some urban communities? No. Most are not. Whatever else may be going on in their lives, for better or worse, most are not.