Do you *want* people to assume you're a man?

[jac]

I am continuously mistaken for male.... until they see my chest area. Then they backstep and apologize and blah blah blah. I don't dress nor act the part to be seen as male. I am me and I walk the streets as the person that I am comfortable being. If this is what most perceive to be male, then there ya go.... It doesn't bother me in the least to be called sir, buddy or male. I answer to any of it. I leave the interpretation of what is seen to the individual. If it makes the other person more comfortable to see me as male then fine, or female then fine. I know I am a female. I know I appear to be male.

Do I "want" people to assume I am a man? It really doesn't bother me in the least. I've never felt icky about it or bad, sad angry, in fact there are times it feels kinda good. Actually more often than not (when it happens).

[Electrocell]

Kinda the way I feel doesn't bother me either way.

Originally Posted by stone4play

I am continuously mistaken for male.... until they see my chest area. Then they backstep and apologize and blah blah blah. I don't dress nor act the part to be seen as male. I am me and I walk the streets as the person that I am comfortable being. If this is what most perceive to be male, then there ya go.... It doesn't bother me in the least to be called sir, buddy or male. I answer to any of it. I leave the interpretation of what is seen to the individual. If it makes the other person more comfortable to see me as male then fine, or female then fine. I know I am a female. I know I appear to be male.

Do I "want" people to assume I am a man? It really doesn't bother me in the least. I've never felt icky about it or bad, sad angry, in fact there are times it feels kinda good. Actually more often than not (when it happens).

[Tcountry]

In my own little world it all depends on context...
Every day with my jeans, boots & bandana ..it could go either way & for the most part I just get the double take looks.
Sometimes checking out of a store, I get the deer in the headlight look when they say "here's Ur change sir" & I just give the a warm smile & say thank u (totally non-masculine voice)...
But when I dress up button up & tie & take an elegantly dressed lady to a nice dinner ...I Like the "sir" in fact I even tip them better than usual...I guess to me it is showing that they understand or at least respect that we are on a date& we will be treated as well as any other couple on a date...no less ....


*tip hat*

[jac]

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by stone4play

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

How I feel as a partner....
When my partner reacts to the assumptions with easy and even humor I relax. In general I feel protective of my sweeties feelings and wish them to be seen how they feel. I am not one that is good at in the moment corrections of other peoples behavior. I will give a touch that says "I know who you are" in the moment.

Beyond being assumed male by strangers or in passing... I support how the person wants to handle it.

[Lazy Daze]

I completely agree with both Corkey and Spritzer. Being partnered with a TG butch, it is about understanding who they are, how they feel about who they are, and how they wish others would see them. As Corkey pointed out, there are several TG butches who chose not to "transition" or become FTM. Yes, there is a difference between a TG butch and an FTM. My partner is TG. He is a Male Butch, or as he calls himself "a butch guy". Does he care if someone calls him Sir? No. Does he care if someone calls him ma'am, no. Because being gender queer, you cannot expect society to understand the personal struggles you go through with your own identity as TG.

As Spritzer pointed out, at the end of the day, I know who my partner is, and I support him in every way possible. He knows and appreciates my love for him, and that is all that matters. What people perceive of him, me, or our BF dance is not what matters.

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by Lazy Daze

I completely agree with both Corkey and Spritzer. Being partnered with a TG butch, it is about understanding who they are, how they feel about who they are, and how they wish others would see them. As Corkey pointed out, there are several TG butches who chose not to "transition" or become FTM. Yes, there is a difference between a TG butch and an FTM. My partner is TG. He is a Male Butch, or as he calls himself "a butch guy". Does he care if someone calls him Sir? No. Does he care if someone calls him ma'am, no. Because being gender queer, you cannot expect society to understand the personal struggles you go through with your own identity as TG.

As Spritzer pointed out, at the end of the day, I know who my partner is, and I support him in every way possible. He knows and appreciates my love for him, and that is all that matters. What people perceive of him, me, or our BF dance is not what matters.

Not to highjack....

I am grateful that Stoney is so gracious, patient and kind about how people experience who Stoney is. This is not easy nor is it Stoney's job to be so patient with folks. People don't get it quickly when gender presentation isn't binary. I have experienced that my friends want to be respectful and use the right "pronoun" and even understand. And the patience gives them space to formulate their questions. I find questions can lead to understanding.

Specifically related to Stoney... my experience of hym is that hy values people getting to know hym. The pronoun matters not. Hy lets people get to know hym and expresses (looks, says, dresses, etc...) as hymself with out reservation.

Now of course I use hy when referencing Stoney on the planet but that is what we've talked about.

[jac]

Originally Posted by spritzerJ

Not to highjack....

I am grateful that Stoney is so gracious, patient and kind about how people experience who Stoney is. This is not easy nor is it Stoney's job to be so patient with folks. People don't get it quickly when gender presentation isn't binary. I have experienced that my friends want to be respectful and use the right "pronoun" and even understand. And the patience gives them space to formulate their questions. I find questions can lead to understanding.

Specifically related to Stoney... my experience of hym is that hy values people getting to know hym. The pronoun matters not. Hy lets people get to know hym and expresses (looks, says, dresses, etc...) as hymself with out reservation.

Now of course I use hy when referencing Stoney on the planet but that is what we've talked about.

I was sleeping but woke with this post in the forefront of my mind and wanted to elaborate on it a little bit.

I absolutely appreciate that my Spritz sees it as not my "job to be patient with folks." In some ways I totally agree and in other ways, I like to think that I do have a role in being patient and educating others with something they don't understand or are struggling with to accept. I'm a rather complex individual, ya know, and even knowing me personally requires one to understand me wholly.

I can be a rather sarcastic person but, for the most part, it's in play and with those that already know me. Those that can appreciate my sense of humor. Or at least tolerate it. If someone on the street looks at me with a questioning look/stare I don't take offense, I just smile to ease the tension and confussion. If it persists I greet them with hello and go about my business. This is the person they need to see and appreciate... Me, the kind and respectful individual that acknowledges them for being an active member of my day.

I believe that everyone is brought into our day for a reason. I also believe that prior to coming to this Earth plane it was agreed upon that I and you, and you and you (generalized) would have our interaction and it would go in such n' such a way. Lessons will be learned. You, the individual, will be an asshat and I will deal with it... because without this interaction how am to know and appreciate a more loving and respectful interaction if I don't know the opposite. (Guess this is all for another thread.... sorry... rambling)

Anyway, should someone question or ask about who I am and why I am and what, and where, and when and and and... I answer their questions... with compassion. And if I walk another block and it happens again... I answer again and again and again. It truly doesn't bother me for people to question and ask... and nine times out of ten they walk away satisfied with the answers and a smile on their face as I say to them - have a nice day!

It's really just that simple...

[aishah]

Originally Posted by stone4play

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

my partner identifies as butch and male (he is trans). he lived as a butch woman for a long time before transitioning. now he doesn't pass and it is a huge problem for him that he is constantly misgendered - it's really upsetting to him.

i'm a pretty protective person and i have a lot of friends who are trans*, genderqueer, or who otherwise don't fit gender norms. i tend to be pretty assertive about other people respecting the ids and pronoun choices of all the people in my life (and sometimes that means having to be patient and explain or educate, which i don't like having to do but i will). that means if someone i am with doesn't id as male and is perceived as male, i would politely try to correct or remind the other person that they are or support the person i am with doing that, if they are comfortable addressing it. same with if the person i am with is perceived as female and doesn't id that way, or ids as something else altogether. i respect the choices of the person i am with too...i know it's not my "job" to swoop in and save anyone - but i also know that for a lot of my friends it's helpful to have allies who will step in and correct people or say that's not okay, so they don't always have to be the ones doing it.

i'm the same way with my partner. i will correct people and confront them if they try to start any shit about it, although i try to respect that he worries about my safety and doesn't want to put me in a situation where that might lead to things being unsafe.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by stone4play

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

for *me* i don't like it. i want to be a visible femme with my female butch partner.

[starryeyes]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

for *me* i don't like it. i want to be a visible femme with my female butch partner.

I agree. It's a pride thing. I do not want to be seen with a man, but as a femme lesbian with a butch female partner and I will correct if my partner doesn't. Lol :-D

[Words]

Originally Posted by starryeyes

I agree. It's a pride thing. I do not want to be seen with a man, but as a femme lesbian with a butch female partner and I will correct if my partner doesn't. Lol :-D

I don't necessarily like being invisible as a queer either.

Thing is, when it comes to pride, I have so much pride in my butch and the way in which Hy carries Hymself/responds regardless of how people perceive Hym that that kind of outweighs the fact that by referring to Hym using masculine pronouns, they are somehow erasing my identity.

Make sense?

Words

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Words

I don't necessarily like being invisible as a queer either.

Thing is, when it comes to pride, I have so much pride in my butch and the way in which Hy carries Hymself/responds regardless of how people perceive Hym that that kind of outweighs the fact that by referring to Hym using masculine pronouns, they are somehow erasing my identity.

Make sense?

Words

Thank you!!!

Femme is not defined by who I am fucking, it's my Gender!

[starryeyes]

Originally Posted by Words

I don't necessarily like being invisible as a queer either.

Thing is, when it comes to pride, I have so much pride in my butch and the way in which Hy carries Hymself/responds regardless of how people perceive Hym that that kind of outweighs the fact that by referring to Hym using masculine pronouns, they are somehow erasing my identity.

Make sense?

Words

I totally get your point, and totally respect it! We are all different here with totally different perspectives, and that is what I love about this place.

Justin and I both totally label ourselves as 100% lesbian women, so the accidental "male" label doesn't sit well with us. We are women, and we are proud, and they will be corrected either by Justin or I, whichever is convenient. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to be "invisible", or having an erased identity. It is a pride thing. I am proud to be a femme lesbian on my female identified butches arm, and you will see me as one because it is who I am. You will see her as a butch because that is what she is and you will see us as a couple because we are fucking beautiful! <3

Hugs.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by stone4play

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

My partner is a she, is identified as a she and is referred to as a she. But, really, it's not about me and what i feel. It's about how my partner feels.

If someone mistakenly called her he (which i've never seen happen) she would be the one to straighten them out. And rather quickly i would think.

If for some reason she couldn't speak, i would be happy to straighten them out. I wouldn't have a problem doing that either.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by stone4play

I'd kinda like to see how the partners of (whether femme or however one IDs) someone being assumed male feels about it and how do they react. Or is that for another thread/zone?

The only time I was with someone female-gendered who enjoyed being mistaken for a man, was also the time I was with someone who held quite misogynistic views, so no, I wasn't great about it.
As for my other partners... Like someone else has said it didn't make me comfortable as a/ my partner was being misgendered and not generally very happy about it (tho sometimes amused) and b/ I wanted to be recognised and seen as a lesbian and c/ It really annoys me that your regular person on the street is so gendered in such a disrespectful and blind way. You are muscular with short hair? Then you must be a male with tits. Long haired and slender? Clearly a woman with stubble. It's so ridiculous. As gay people we make an effort to actually look at people, yet those people out there don't bother. It's too easy to dump their own assumptions on us.
[/rant]

[EnderD_503]

I guess this question is hard for me, lol.

First of all, I kind of wish we lived in a society where people didn't assume other people's sexes and/or genders. So, no, people shouldn't assume...because maybe I might look one way, but identify another. And it should only be up to the individual person to identify themselves.

But like others have said in the thread, I think that most people just want to be recognised as their identities. If someone identifies as female chances are they want to be recognised as female. If someone is genderqueer they probably don't want people assuming they are either male or female.

I'm a transguy and also identify with male id'd butch. There's a lot of narrative in the trans community about passing and being "stealth." A lot of transguys feel it affirms their maleness to blend in and be assumed as a cisguy, and if they like women then they think it affirms them as men to pass as a straight couple. I don't really feel that way. Because I'm not a cisguy and I'm a queer guy into queer women. Being assumed a cisguy doesn't affirm maleness...my transguyness affirms my maleness...as does my queerness. Being assumed straight wouldn't feel affirming to me either. I guess I'm torn because as much as I have never felt female/woman and never identified as female/woman, I also can't say that I'm a cisguy and at this point I'm actually happy to have been born a transguy and not a cisguy. I want to "pass," but I want to "pass" as a transguy ...somehow recognised as legitimately male without people assuming all the shit that they usual assume when they hear "male." Meaning certain genitalia as well as certain experiences, attitudes amongst other things.

So yeah I want people to assume that I'm a guy in my daily life...but I wish that somehow society recognised different types of guys in a positive way. It also gets more complicated than that when sharing experiences and personal histories.

It kind of reminds me of that transguy recently who volunteered to become the leader of a breastfeeding group. He had borne his own child and was breastfeeding his own child and participating in the breastfeeding group. He had the opportunity to become the leader of the group and suddenly all hell broke lose. The media/society making fun of him and making a circus out of it, other transguys turning their backs on him and asking "why you would want to be the leader of a breastfeeding group when you're a guy," and so on and so forth. But people just generally have trouble seeing him as both a guy and someone capable of giving birth and breastfeeding...who should have the right to lead a group like that as much as anyone else who has the experience of breastfeeding their kid.

So I think that brings up the issues of the complications that arise when you assume anything about a person. Yeah many transguys want people to assume they're guys (as it seems this guy does, too), but what does that mean? Their experiences as certain people with certain experiences, histories, physical capabilities and so on seem to conflict for many people with being read as male.

There's a lot of baggage that comes with assuming someone's sex/gender...and I wish there wasn't. That I could be assumed a guy without people assuming shit about my life, my body, my attitudes towards my body and my experiences.

[stephfromMIT]

I only get funny looks when I enter the ladies room, and then, it's only public restrooms. At school, they know me, so they understand.

[Electrocell]

Originally Posted by stephfromMIT

I only get funny looks when I enter the ladies room, and then, it's only public restrooms. At school, they know me, so they understand.

Well when you get into the real world to work and such it will continue to happen believe me lol.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by stephfromMIT

I only get funny looks when I enter the ladies room, and then, it's only public restrooms. At school, they know me, so they understand.

There's a thread for that!


"http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1528][/URL]