The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[Kobi]

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

[Cyclopea]

Proud Butch Woman here. Represent!
Enjoying the thread- thanks to all who have posted.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Hey Kobi (and a hey to Luckdwg07 ) *

I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.. but I'm slightly perplexed with that statement... especially in a Butch Femme forum?

Thanx in advance for any explanation...

Metro

*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===>
*s*
.
.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===>
*s*
.
.

I thought this was a video game controller, lol. But toasters are good too- thanks Met!

[Kobi]

"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities."

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

Ok, I understand, but will say I don't find that disconcerting at all... some peeps just need to be themselves, and if they aren't female then the simply aren't female.

I don't think that should be disconcerting to someone it doesn't really have two hoots to do with anyhow, but it's your prerogative, I just don't agree.

There's room for all of us.

Metro

[Kobi]

"Ok, I understand, but will say I don't find that disconcerting at all... some peeps just need to be themselves, and if they aren't female then the simply aren't female.

I don't think that should be disconcerting to someone it doesn't really have two hoots to do with anyhow, but it's your prerogative, I just don't agree."

Metro,

The nice thing about the world is we all are entitled to our opinions. And we nicely agree to disagree.

Male energy is much different from female energy. And, there is a distinct difference in interactions. But thats just my opinion.

[Beau]

I'm wary of defining energy on top of all the other definitions floating around that serve only to constrict or limit me and/or my choices.

I'm very masculine in terms of my presentation and my "energy" - or so I've been told - but that doesn't equate to male. It is female masculinity. I wear it proudly. I'm still a woman. That juxtaposition is where I feel my butch energy.

And yes, if one is not a female, there's no reason to claim woman, and many in these forums are not lesbians. That doesn't make anyone who owns their male identity unwelcome in space we all share equally. This is a community of queers of many stripes, and as Metropolis said, there's plenty of room for us all.

Beau

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Originally Posted by Kobi

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

Originally Posted by Kobi

The nice thing about the world is we all are entitled to our opinions. And we nicely agree to disagree.

Male energy is much different from female energy. And, there is a distinct difference in interactions. But thats just my opinion.

Kobi,
Maybe you could come back in and be more specific about what you're trying to say. Because right now I read it as you trying to be the gender police.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Male energy is much different from female energy. And, there is a distinct difference in interactions. But thats just my opinion.

as is 'butch energy', as is 'queer' energy.

[Martina]

The energy thing assumes all others can read it loud and clear. That's not always the case. The energy thing, i think, has more to do with dynamics between individuals. As far as i am concerned, if people ID as butch, they are butch, no matter what i may or may not pick up from them. Same with femme.

[Luckydwg07]

I guess you could say I'm disconcerting to others in our community. I am strong & masculine in my womanly frame..I am totally butch I've had many descriptions pinned to my chest. I do enjoy the company of all. What they want to be is up to them. When people feel good about who they are one can tell & enjoy knowing them.
Maybe some are not ok with their place in life & so they are upset with me. I can't figure it out. I just stay on the fringe with my door open.
hope I didn't muddy the waters more!!

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Hey Kobi (and a hey to Luckdwg07 ) *

I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.. but I'm slightly perplexed with that statement... especially in a Butch Femme forum?

Thanx in advance for any explanation...

Metro

*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===>
*s*
.
.

[Allison W]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Originally Posted by Kobi

"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities."

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

This compelled me to de-lurk. I have to ask--when you say that ("lesbians who disown their femaleness"), are you talking about male-ID'd butches, transmen, or something else entirely?

~~~

Now that I'm here, though, I'd like to thank Metropolis for starting this thread. Over on the dash site, which I still do visit, I do often find that male ID'd butches and transmen are frequently regarded as the default (a particularly striking example perhaps being the name of the butch bonding forum--Butch Bruthas? No Butch Sistahs?), with butch women frequently thought of afterward, if at all. Which isn't to say I'm against acceptance of male-ID'd butches and transmen, but I don't accept the marginalization of butch women--in the straight world, let alone their own communities. My moral support isn't worth much, but suffice it to say if there's anything I can do to support you in a more useful fashion, I'd be happy to.

[Luckydwg07]

I will say that out in public I feel confident. I do have people stare/examine me but I look at them and give a smile & a hello. 99% of the time I get a hello back. I am part of society & the human race no doubt.

[Words]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Simpler for whom?

For you, perhaps. But not for those who had the audacity to be 'other'.

[Jett]

What feels safe is my lumping myself into a space I kind of can slide by in... what feels less safe is a middle ground between two huge accepted gender designations.

"Other"... no matter where I go there I am facing it including here. Though I keep grasping at those straws, trying to place myself into "one or the other" (binary- woman or man) and once again when I do find myself uncomfortably in a position of just not quite belonging. There's only one place I had that I felt I could breath... and that was in my while back acknowledgment of "The Other Genders".

A couple months ago I'm looking at an old photo of myself (teenage for retroweek) and it triggered a strong desire to find the contentedness in her eyes, and I thought I found it in her being happy in her being "her", BUT totally missed that it's just her being ignorant (and blissful in that ignorance) to the implications of who s/he is/was and what it would mean in the world.

Then I get a bigger damn wake up, I wrote this thread for female or women butches... and hit submit, and the itchiness began. The more I try to speak from that position... the more itchy I get, the more that it's not right feeling rises up and the more I realize to I need to be forthright with myself and here. My body is female yes and will always be and I'm happy with that (though it tends to random masculine traits it's no doubt on the more female on the bits side)... but my mind is quite "other", it is very pangender, or androgyne, male and female by birth or by lived life... what ever it is what it is.

My self acceptance is a process in which denial has played too large a part and needs to be gotten over... I really want to just be who I am and it starts with owning it. I was going to re-write this and post it tomorrow but what the hell...

Metropolis
*still a female but perhaps not in the same sense this thread has and may follow*
-------------------------------------------------
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?

[AtLast]

Other, yes, other. For me, other is the mix of female & male .... a merging and this feels right to me. Yet, it does not feel like what we have traditionally conceived via the gender binary. It is something other and needs no modification. Nuturance, yes, change, no. But, this is the other that fits for me, not everyone. This is how it has always been for me.

I just want to have a respected place in which I am seen for my character, not my gender. And not feel that I have to continually fight for recognition as the female I am. Nor do I want to be a more masculine woman that I am or put on false male bravado to be accepted as butch. This is out of character for me.

What I am is just a butch and happy with this.

[BullDog]

I don't believe that the gender binary that we all seem to complain about is really the major problem. Sure more than two genders do exist and should be recognized. However, it's the stereotypes and limitations placed on the gender roles that are recognized (man and woman) that are what is most damaging. Sexism is the primary cause of this. If there were no limitations or stereotypes placed on women, than many more females would not find woman to be problematic as their gender or part of their gender. Some still would.

However, having a gazillion gender identities doesn't get us any freer than we were before. Sexism is alive and well in queer culture, as much as it ever has been. The fact that lesbian, butch femme and queer communities can't seem to come to grips with the fact that women can fully embrace their masculinity and still be fully female and fully woman is a symptom of this.

I fully embrace woman as I do butch. It's empowering to me because I have a right to fully embrace woman as much as I do butch and masculinity. It's important for me to stand with other women- whether butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight.

I also don't think it's easier to embrace woman than Other, nor do I think it plays into the binary.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't believe that the gender binary that we all seem to complain about is really the major problem. Sure more than two genders do exist and should be recognized. However, it's the stereotypes and limitations placed on the gender roles that are recognized (man and woman) that are what is most damaging. Sexism is the primary cause of this. If there were no limitations or stereotypes placed on women, than many more females would not find woman to be problematic as their gender or part of their gender. Some still would.

However, having a gazillion gender identities doesn't get us any freer than we were before. Sexism is alive and well in queer culture, as much as it ever has been. The fact that lesbian, butch femme and queer communities can't seem to come to grips with the fact that women can fully embrace their masculinity and still be fully female and fully woman is a symptom of this.

I fully embrace woman as I do butch. It's empowering to me because I have a right to fully embrace woman as much as I do butch and masculinity. It's important for me to stand with other women- whether butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight.

I also don't think it's easier to embrace woman than Other, nor do I think it plays into the binary.

Bully I don't know if this is a response to me or your having random thoughts but...

I don't think claiming woman plays into the binary either, unless of course you don't feel like one and you do anyway... that does play into the binary.

With that I don't think that other genders claiming women if we don't own it furthers those identities (and "Other" has been around as long as female or male and also very oppressed) nor does it further women... or make either any "freer".

Bully, in the same way you embrace being a woman as you do butch, I have the "right" to fully embrace being "other" as I do butch... and like you it's empowering to me to embrace who I am... and to still stand with everyone who was born female in this sexist world... whether they be butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight.

I don't think you have to be "woman" to feel some of the sting of or fight sexism... I'm still a female and I didn't break free from that ball and chain (sexism). But really if all genders fought it... not just women (or as women) it wouldn't even exist. Somehow I think I'm far from finished in fighting sexism and misogyny, whether from the mouths of butch, other genders, males or right from the mouths of women... you know... fight the real enemy, sexism... not those that aren't women.

And... I do think the binary's a "major problem" in the very least it's being held over peoples heads as "the normal" (including all butches etc.), in the worst if you don't fit into it, it can mean becoming just another hate crime statistic.

Peace
Metro

ETA: I, myself, don't want to go into the politics of how my gender as a female who doesn't identify as women affects women as a whole... I pretty much am dropping the politics of gender in favor of accepting myself in my gender and exactly what it is for me, not for what it does for/to others.

It's not about anyone else and I'm happy to keep it that way and just be done with all the should or shouldn't(s) of gender, I've done that too much already.

[BullDog]

Metro, I'm not fighting anyone who doesn't claim woman and don't think only women can fight against sexism. I've also never said anyone didn't have a right to fully embrace what felt right to them more than I did.

I think I am weary of all the gender talk for now. I am not seeing any progress, and I see women continue to be de-valued in our queer communities.

peace,
Bully

ETA: I understand for you gender is not political. However, we will never be accepted for our genders without social change.