A Question for Understanding

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by GrahamsGirl

I posted this question in another thread, but I guess it wasn't to correct one. I am asking so I can understand, so please do not feel as if I am judging or anything else. Thanks for helping me to understand.

How does a transguy pass as a transguy and not a straight guy? (Sorry if that is worded wrong.) I really want to get a visual/understanding on this. Thanks. GG

I looked at the original thread that you posted the question in and I noticed you posted only a little after I did with the same question and I'm wondering if you were referring to my post where I said "I want to "pass," but I want to "pass" as a transguy" since I was the only one that talked about that?

If so, then it depends on the person. There are trans people who don't want to be recognised as trans and want to be "stealth" and blend in with cis people. I'm not one of them. I want to be proud of who I am, I don't want to pretend like there's something wrong with me (I may think there was something wrong for me with the way certain parts of my body developed, but I don't think, now that those things are mostly corrected, that there is anything wrong with being trans...just to clarify) and that cis people are the only "natural" way to be human. I think that trans identities are legitimate sexes on their own without cis sexes. My words in the other thread were from wanting more visibility for myself as a transguy, I'd prefer to be seen as a transguy rather than being assumed either female or cismale depending on the person and how they interpret my body (which can vary quite a bit). In our society, outside of the queer community, it's impossible to get that kind of recognition. I wish that weren't the case.

[DamonK]

I don't wanna be seen as straight. I id as a transguy. The trans part is important to me. It reminds me of all the battles to get here... All I've lost and all I've gained. I wish some battles ended differently, but I'm proud I had to courage to go ahead...knowing what price I would pay. For me, to id as straight male, would undermine this. And, for me, I paid too high a price to not honor my sacrifices. Thus, I'm a queer transguy that happens to like a select few women and other transguys.

[firegal]

Originally Posted by DamonK

I don't wanna be seen as straight. I id as a transguy. The trans part is important to me. It reminds me of all the battles to get here... All I've lost and all I've gained. I wish some battles ended differently, but I'm proud I had to courage to go ahead...knowing what price I would pay. For me, to id as straight male, would undermine this. And, for me, I paid too high a price to not honor my sacrifices. Thus, I'm a queer transguy that happens to like a select few women and other transguys.

I completely understand the feeling and importance of sacrifices and "battles" we have endured in each of our lives.

Your words struck me, as more than a few folks question me about my site name...thought i was femme...or it didnt fit me.

I keep it because of what i went thru years ago when i was first getting in the department. It was something i would not want to go thru again.... ignorance can be bliss... and yes for me too it was a high price to pay.

I,m not saying i know what it like to be trans.... i,m just saying i know what it like to pay a high price and have it effect my verbage.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by firegal

I completely understand the feeling and importance of sacrifices and "battles" we have endured in each of our lives.

Your words struck me, as more than a few folks question me about my site name...thought i was femme...or it didnt fit me.

I keep it because of what i went thru years ago when i was first getting in the department. It was something i would not want to go thru again.... ignorance can be bliss... and yes for me too it was a high price to pay.

I,m not saying i know what it like to be trans.... i,m just saying i know what it like to pay a high price and have it effect my verbage.

I think that anyone who questions your user name, needs a new hobby.

[EnderD_503]

I also just wanna say, after reading a few other posts, that I don't think wanting to be recognised as a transguy rather than being stealth means that you're less of a transguy. I definitely don't identify as gender neutral or third gender/sex (though I do think there are more than two sexes, that sex is more complicated than cismale/cisfemale and identify my own sex as transmale if someone asks).

It doesn't mean you're any less serious about being recognised as a guy...the problem is that society only wants to see cisguys as legitimate so it expects transguys to want to be exactly like cisguys and "pass" as them. I just don't want anyone to assume transguys who aren't stealth because they don't want to be are any less transguys than people who want to be stealth. Also, we shouldn't be seen as having had the "choice" to be transguys anymore than any other transguy or more than anyone who is cis female or cis male. I didn't choose to be a transguy anymore than a cisguy chooses to be a cisguy...but neither do I think that because I didn't have a choice that it's something I'm upset with or feel bad about. Just because you don't have a choice doesn't mean you aren't happy with who you are. People don't choose who they're attracted to either but doesn't mean they're unhappy about it (at least I'm not ). I do make the choice to be proud of who I am and not wanting to live stealth. It also shouldn't be assumed that transguys who are more open about who they are are no-op and/or no-ho. Depends on the person. Some of us just have/want surgery and don't want hormones, others just want hormones and don't want surgery, others of us want/have surgery and are also on T, others of us have been on hormones and then stopped etc. There's just as much diversity as with transguys who want to be entirely stealth and there's no one way to be a transguy.

What is making it easier for those of us who don't want to be stealth is that there is less control over our bodies by psychiatric institutions. Hormones are much easier to get (at least here) without a letter from a psychiatrist and there are more options as far as how to get surgery than there was in the past. Shrinks don't have as much power to gatekeep as they used to.

[Quintease]

I've been pondering this question as I don't really understand how a guy can look like a 'transman' rather than a 'man'. I've noticed there is a certain point in their transition where they look like men (or boys) and there is no going back from that. Even boys who stop taking their testosterone look like young men rather than transmen.

I guess some boys look for 'the look' when they're in queer spaces so they can recognise each other but that's just guesswork. From where I'm standing transguys don't 'look' different to any other man. Not all transguys look straight however, some most definitely look gay, some look queer and some attract both sexes regardless of how they look. I do know a guy who most definitely ID's as trans, but in public spaces, even in gay public spaces, he's taken as a cisgendered man.

[Hominid]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I also just wanna say, after reading a few other posts, that I don't think wanting to be recognised as a transguy rather than being stealth means that you're less of a transguy. I definitely don't identify as gender neutral or third gender/sex (though I do think there are more than two sexes, that sex is more complicated than cismale/cisfemale and identify my own sex as transmale if someone asks).

It doesn't mean you're any less serious about being recognised as a guy...the problem is that society only wants to see cisguys as legitimate so it expects transguys to want to be exactly like cisguys and "pass" as them. I just don't want anyone to assume transguys who aren't stealth because they don't want to be are any less transguys than people who want to be stealth. Also, we shouldn't be seen as having had the "choice" to be transguys anymore than any other transguy or more than anyone who is cis female or cis male. I didn't choose to be a transguy anymore than a cisguy chooses to be a cisguy...but neither do I think that because I didn't have a choice that it's something I'm upset with or feel bad about. Just because you don't have a choice doesn't mean you aren't happy with who you are. People don't choose who they're attracted to either but doesn't mean they're unhappy about it (at least I'm not ). I do make the choice to be proud of who I am and not wanting to live stealth. It also shouldn't be assumed that transguys who are more open about who they are are no-op and/or no-ho. Depends on the person. Some of us just have/want surgery and don't want hormones, others just want hormones and don't want surgery, others of us want/have surgery and are also on T, others of us have been on hormones and then stopped etc. There's just as much diversity as with transguys who want to be entirely stealth and there's no one way to be a transguy.

I'm pretty sure my post was at least one of the posts you are responding to. Please note that I inserted every qualifier and caveat I could to cover you, and explicitly said that my generalizations and potential scenarios would apply to NO ONE as an individual. But I do want to say that I in no way think anyone is "less" of a transman for any reason. I am not quantifying or qualifying anything - just trying to cover an incredibly vast array of possibilities for someone asking a question
The problem with language is that it's only representative, it's not the truth itself; at least on one level, but that opens up a whole different discussion. I tried very hard to qualify everything I said - but you are very specific, which puts you in the position of being mistaken - for instance, you say, " I do make the choice to be proud of who I am and not wanting to live stealth." You directly juxtapose being "stealth" with being proud. I am very proud. I am probably also what most would call "stealth". I am, in reality a transman. However, I do not identify as one personally. For me, it is a term that describes how I came to be seen as male, some physical attributes, and the fact that I lived as a dyke for a long time. How does one be "exactly like a cisguy"? There are just as many ways to be a cisguy ...
BTW, I don't live "stealth". MOST people you describe as "stealth" do not like that term. Most feel they are being perceived as who they are for the first time in their lives - it suggests hiding, when they feel that in fact they are finally being seen. I am who I am and people can assume what they want. I didn't change jobs or move - but after all this time some know, some don't, and none of it impacts who I am. Me, I'm just a guy, with a complicated history I do not reject or pretend was a mistake.
Some people DO choose to transition - to attach different pronouns, define differently than they had. I did. Surgery, coming out, hormones, name changes - all were very active and PITA choices. And there are MANY who CHOOSE not to transition and remain women, and continue to identify as women, as much as it irks them. I know three very well. They feel uncomfortable claiming to be male in any way even though they feel male, and feel they would have been more at ease living as male.
Rather than debate these particulars, and that's what they are, incredibly personal particulars, I think it's much better, more respectful of all our paths, to not play semantics. It could get very nasty and silly and tiresome - I did my best to qualify what I said, I said "some" everywhere I could, and again, indicated that there are as many ways to be male, and to be trans, as there are to be human. And by "third gender" I meant, something *other* than cis-male and cis-female. I would just like you to note that you were very specific, and made pronouncements for us all - not an upsetting thing because *I know what you mean*.

We should ALL be very careful not to pronounce the truth from our own limited and evolving perspectives.

[weatherboi]

Personally I wish that people would just speak for themselves when talking about identifying.It is a good way not to have to use qualifiers, supporting the idea that id's are personal experiences without the boundaries bestowed upon us by people that don't live our reality. I think this is the difference between being specific about one's experience and speaking for others.

[Hominid]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Personally I wish that people would just speak for themselves when talking about identifying.It is a good way not to have to use qualifiers, supporting the idea that id's are personal experiences without the boundaries bestowed upon us by people that don't live our reality. I think this is the difference between being specific about one's experience and speaking for others.

Agreed. I shouldn't have even tried to address that question! Stupid, stupid stupid (slapping head).

[Stronghealer]

I pass and I don't pass.

ex. : at work, a great number of colleagues knew me before I began testosterone.Let's face it : my gender status gets around : i.e. gossip

My identity is queer.
I date and fall in love with femmes.
I am trans.
I am butch.

A fellow transman describes himself as a hybrid (Greyson)...and I identify strongly with that description!




.

[theoddz]

I pass as a cis guy all the time.....unless I out myself, then I get a lot of jaw drops. I am post-op and have been on T for going on 6 years now. I think there are a few physical characteristics that people take, at first sight, as "automatic" indicators of gender. In particular, things like a man's size (a lot of the time), deep voice, facial hair, etc., that tells someone "okay, he's a guy", or "okay, she's a woman" (breasts, features, size, voice, etc.). Most people, I don't think, are really in tune to transfolk, so unless there's something that just obviously sticks out, their minds just aren't geared to automatically pick up on things right away. There are things, I think, which amount to certain behaviors, mannerisms, finer details, that some people might pick up on after first sight impressions, that might "out" a trans person, but these are secondary things and some are so slight that they might not even be noticed until after getting to know a trans person more. That's been my observation, at least.

That being said, I do want to add that I don't think I have a lot of the more "negative" (so to speak) attitudes or feelings of entitlement to "privilege" that many cis men do. In the company of my XY brothers, I think that it is noticed when I don't join in or engage in the nut-scratching, knuckle-dragging, female bashing behaviors that men sometimes engage in when not in the company of females. Yes, men do act differently when women aren't present and some of that behavior can be pretty gross. I thought so when I was perceived as "female" and I still think so, now that I am presenting as completely (cis) male. I like to think that I'm a male feminist and other (cis) men take notice of it. I've gotten quite a few raised eyebrows after I've popped off to these guys for their gross behavior.....and I do it unapologetically. I do have to say that when I call their behavior/comments out, I do it in the context of, "How would you feel if someone said that about your wife/girlfriend/daughter/sister??".

My roots are in the GLBTQ community. I lived 45 years in a "female" skin, although that was horribly uncomfortable for me, but it was enough to know that rude, crass, sexist, obnoxious behavior isn't attractive in anyone and it only makes whomever exhibits it less appealing, whomever they are. It just makes me angry.

I don't necessarily want to be perceived as either a transguy or a cis guy. I prefer to just be perceived as a decent, evolved man. The rest I just really don't care about, one way or another. I'd rather be perceived as who I am, rather than what I am.

I hope that makes sense.

~Theo~