The Fat Positive Lounge

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

re: the proposition that possibly individuals who present fat are percieved as being less than they are and thus, seen as having less than desireable self esteem, etc.

I think the better way to address things of this nature is to call out that particular thinking process and let the owner of that particular perception bear the full weight of their own biases. Why do I advocate that position? I think it is necessary to challenge biases of this nature and let the owner who dares to propel that kind of ideology do the work it takes to dial back their own biases, so that particular social narrative is called to a halt.

It's important to not cave into false construction of ideas that places the burden on the person being victimized for their own beauty and, who no doubt, deserves positive strokes about who they are and not what people think they look like or thought of as having less than desireable self esteem, etc.

I say call it out. Put a stop to it. Don't cave into social processes that do nothing positive for the person who is beautiful in their own right.

I want to expand my rationale on personal accountability where it concerns calling out biases that carefully walk the line between being just a bias then as it spirals into prejudicial actions which are used to build credibility into a claim based in the opposite, counter-claim, that hopes to justify a bias - no matter where it resides on the scale of behaviors used to make the claim appear credible and/or legitimate.

I will use Spirit Dancer's latest post to illustrate the underlying logic I see in the premise set by the author of the quote: Dawn French.

French's quote provides a common context known to most people in that Renaissance art has been a place where we find female bodied models who are beautiful in thier own right and 'revered as a fabulous model' of beauty. Then, French goes on to justify her claim based on a counter-cultural issue of not being Fat (Skinny Culture) by suggesting that a reknown model in our own present culture (Kate Moss) would be 'used as a paintbrush' to make another wrong right.

I appreciate how it is that one might feel drawn to make comparisons like that. But I can't get fully behind it. Why? I have to call it out for what I see transpiring within the framed context of logic that is utilized. For, it's not okay that an opposite culture is used to oppress or suppress the real claim at stake in this particular meme. People who are skinny or their body size and range of weight is staged more toward a normed latitude are just as valuable in our society as people whose range of size or weight is found on another spectrum of the latitude - those of us who are bigger or larger or whatever descriptor that one wants to adopt as their own personal descriptor.

Let's take me (for example): I think of myself as a tank. My own identity is charged positively in that while it's not necessarily a true marker of my physical shape, what is truer is the proverbial connotation of what the term "Tank" means: I adopt Tank as an armor that aids me in repelling social stereotypes (isms) which carry a negatively charged connotation. I'm not as big as I was six months ago, but I am still a fairly big woman - because my bone density and physical makeup will only allow me to look as lean as only my body will allow. I don't think I will ever weigh less than 200, but if I ever weigh 190, will have a big party!

What I am trying to say is that to me, it's not okay to use a counter-proposition that oppresses another type of culture or identity to justify the negatively charged messages about ourselves in the world of using language as thoughtfully and carefully as one can. Sometimes I surface process, but mostly I process at a level in cognition that requires time to process and take in all the items present that I see in the environment. Those items might look like: physical cues, non-physical cues, tangible textual cues (re: the quote by French), and if we're in a face-to-face situation then no doubt other signifiers come into play. For example, speech processes, cultural cues found present in the way a person dresses or proximity (distance) between members who are sharing a channel of communication with each other.

It takes a deeper commitment in the process of calling out social stereotypes pertaining to size culture (Fat) than using a surface process to justify the hurtful messages we are bombarded with on a daily basis. I want to say that in developing this post, my intention is to not make my friend SD feel badly for the comparison she felt led to make in support of those who are larger in size as opposed to those who are less our size. I only do this with a loving heart and remaining true to my own level of social and personal accountability in illustrating a principle that I feel is important in providing a feasible remedy for combating biased, prejudicial aspects we face on a daily basis.

Maybe one way to reframe the message conveyed in French's quote could go something like this:

I'm glad Reuben Art mirrors my beauty and that Kate Moss can enjoy my beauty too: We paint a beautiful world together!

So, hopefully what I submit today is met with a willingness to carefully inspect flagged messages in our daily lives and make a commitment to counter biased and prejudicial acts of communication by reframing what we let ourselves hear, read or what we allow ourselves to think. I think the remedy begins with ourselves and my own challenge on a daily basis is to treat myself with loving kindness and dwell only upon thoughts which uplift me and those around me.

[SingularNYCFemme]

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

So, hopefully what I submit today is met with a willingness to carefully inspect flagged messages in our daily lives and make a commitment to counter biased and prejudicial acts of communication by reframing what we let ourselves hear, read or what we allow ourselves to think. I think the remedy begins with ourselves and my own challenge on a daily basis is to treat myself with loving kindness and dwell only upon thoughts which uplift me and those around me.

I appreciate your entire carefully written and thought through post, Kätzchen; thank you very much for everything you wrote there. Actually, I've cut out my favorite part, which had to do with Rubenesque women and sharing our enjoyment of them with Ms. Moss! But it is your final, succinct, deeply caring paragraph I am quoting because it really sums up everything you have written so well. It really is best for us, having known and felt (oh bother with past tense, I deal with this on the bus every day) our fellow humans' responses to our being outside their imposed norm, not to engage in the same negative and derisive treatment of any fellow human. My largesse is only one way in which I am outside of today's social norms; and I need to learn how to live the best life I can live with the various ways in which I veer off. I will do so better, perhaps best, if I do so with as much acceptance of other ways people are than, certainly, if I turn around and exclude others as I have found myself excluded, or deride others as I have found myself derided.

Now I've prattled on long enough, all basically to say thank you for such rich food ... for thought!

[Soft*Silver]

I hear women telling me what they cant wear...

I cant expose my arms, they are too big

I cant wear belts, my stumach is too large

I cant wear pants, my ass is too big

I cant wear sexy nighties because I am round

I cant wear shorts my legs are too fat

I cant wear heels because people will laugh

I cant wear sexy because no one will believe it

I cant wear dress-up because I will be a joke instead of sensual

I cant wear ....

its amazing some of us leave the house with anything on at all. No stripes, loud colors, prints, nor white. However, glitter, sequins, animal prints and satin stripe around our necklines (the supposed smallest part of our upper body) are ok.

So I go to work wearing....extremely thin strapped tank tops...and shorts. And stripes and loud prints...REALLY LOUD prints. LOL. And I dyed my hair blue black and wear rich deep colors on my face. I cant wear heels but I paint my toes and I put on hats that dont match anything I wear. LOL. And they love me. Actually, they actually love themselves. And that...is what its all about...

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Miss_Tia

I hear women telling me what they cant wear...

I cant expose my arms, they are too big

I cant wear belts, my stumach is too large

I cant wear pants, my ass is too big

I cant wear sexy nighties because I am round

I cant wear shorts my legs are too fat

I cant wear heels because people will laugh

I cant wear sexy because no one will believe it

I cant wear dress-up because I will be a joke instead of sensual

I cant wear ....

its amazing some of us leave the house with anything on at all. No stripes, loud colors, prints, nor white. However, glitter, sequins, animal prints and satin stripe around our necklines (the supposed smallest part of our upper body) are ok.

So I go to work wearing....extremely thin strapped tank tops...and shorts. And stripes and loud prints...REALLY LOUD prints. LOL. And I dyed my hair blue black and wear rich deep colors on my face. I cant wear heels but I paint my toes and I put on hats that dont match anything I wear. LOL. And they love me. Actually, they actually love themselves. And that...is what its all about...

What a truly beautiful post.

[nycfem]

Reading what Tia wrote made me think about how a few years ago, when I was at the indoor pool at the gym, after swimming a mile, I got out of the pool and was wearing a black swimsuit with a bright pink design on it. It was pretty generic. But a lean, athletic dude had to yell across the pool, "Wow, that's a really LOUD color you're wearing!" A lot of people looked at me and I just gave a little forced giggle. I was caught off-guard but I got the message. Sorry, 200lb short women shouldn't wear bright, fun colors, especially not in a dripping wet swimsuit and not at a gym. The shame stays with us and also makes it understandable why some fat people avoid the gym.

[SingularNYCFemme]

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

Reading what Tia wrote made me think about how a few years ago, when I was at the indoor pool at the gym, after swimming a mile, I got out of the pool and was wearing a black swimsuit with a bright pink design on it. It was pretty generic. But a lean, athletic dude had to yell across the pool, "Wow, that's a really LOUD color you're wearing!" A lot of people looked at me and I just gave a little forced giggle. I was caught off-guard but I got the message. Sorry, 200lb short women shouldn't wear bright, fun colors, especially not in a dripping wet swimsuit and not at a gym. The shame stays with us and also makes it understandable why some fat people avoid the gym.

Besides the financial aspects, which should be getting better in the near future, I have to admit that it's hard for me to feel comfortable in a gym, and I haven't had an experience like that (yet). I HATE that this happened to you, and I want to tell you that you are my HERO because you still go to the gym. Well, that's one of the reasons you're my hero anyway.

[SugarFemme]

About ten years ago when I still bought into the, "Wear black, it makes you slimmer" BS my mom was feeding me, I always wore black to work. ALL black. I still felt fat. Didn't have that miraculous, suddenly looking 50 pounds lighter look. Everyone used to tease me at work that I was, "Always ready for a funeral" because I was always in all black. I figured, fuck it. I was so over it. Now, I wear whatever makes ME feel good. Besides, I finally figured out that it was NOT what I wore on the outside, but how I felt on the INSIDE about myself that made the difference.

Originally Posted by Miss_Tia

I hear women telling me what they cant wear...

I cant expose my arms, they are too big

I cant wear belts, my stumach is too large

I cant wear pants, my ass is too big

I cant wear sexy nighties because I am round

I cant wear shorts my legs are too fat

I cant wear heels because people will laugh

I cant wear sexy because no one will believe it

I cant wear dress-up because I will be a joke instead of sensual

I cant wear ....

its amazing some of us leave the house with anything on at all. No stripes, loud colors, prints, nor white. However, glitter, sequins, animal prints and satin stripe around our necklines (the supposed smallest part of our upper body) are ok.

So I go to work wearing....extremely thin strapped tank tops...and shorts. And stripes and loud prints...REALLY LOUD prints. LOL. And I dyed my hair blue black and wear rich deep colors on my face. I cant wear heels but I paint my toes and I put on hats that dont match anything I wear. LOL. And they love me. Actually, they actually love themselves. And that...is what its all about...

[Soft*Silver]

I grew up not seeing what was in the mirror. I saw what everyone wanted me to see. Fat. Ugly. A round peg in a square hole. I couldnt see what I looked like. Just last year I realized I had green eyes. Not brown like everyone else in my family. All my life I wanted cheekbones. I realized this year I have them. I SO wanted lovely breasts. Dammit. I have incredible breasts! Just because I have some fat on me, I couldnt see these things. I saw the hue of shame, not the reality of me, when I looked in the mirror.

When we see ourselves thru others eyes, thru the smear of fat across our visual field, we lower our expectations of our worth, as well as the truth of who we are as individuals. I am not one of the Fat. I am not just a fat woman. I am a woman. I have extra pounds on me. But I have green eyes, cheekbones, nice breasts and alot of other things that I spent 5 decades denying to myself. And by god I am done not seeing who I am in the mirror. And if people dont like me wearing bright pink, they can kiss my rippled lovely ass because I have one of those beauties, too! LOL

[clay]

....just stopping by to say...WOW! You gorgeous, gorgeous and oh so sensual souls...I heart you ALL! Stunning...absolutely stunning...I slip in here to put a huge smile on my face..and to derive pure joy in the beauty that lies within this thread!....xoxoxo...all of you! ...

[clay]

Recently I have begun to have some serious health issues...and with having had major surg last december for colon cancer...these concerned me enough to see a GI surgeon recommended by my oncologist's office.
So, last Friday, I saw this "person"...after a resident came in to take my history, this "surgeon" walked in in his expensive suit, sat on the stool..looked at me..grinned and said" I can tell you why you had colon cancer, are having rectal bleeding now, and you have joint pain, and the reason you walk with that limp...is you are "morbidly obese" and I can fix all of that, with a gastric bypass". Your hernia I can't fix because you are so "big" that it will rupture again, and repeatedly, UNTIL you let me do a bypass on you....that is your only option...my jaw was on the floor....he wasn't even interested in asking me any of my history, never even looked at my hernia, and was there for less than 10 minutes...he gave me a brochure for the gastric bypass...and walked out.
The student in the room....his face was the color of a firetruck...he was jaw dropped, too...and he just looked at me sheepishly!
I walk with a limp because of a tragic motorcycle accident.
I had colon cancer....because who knows why...maybe genetically predisposed?
I have a hernia because the muscle was cut laterally...across the grain...and when was sutured, you can't suture the stringy strands...only the tendons and ligaments, so THAT is why I have a hernia.
I am well aware of how "big" I am...and I am well aware of the fact I also have lost 50 lbs. since last November...
and most importantly, I am well aware I have a HUGE kind, loving, and forgiving heart...and I own my fatness!
but him...he is just an ass..for which there is NO excuse!!!
Anyway, I am thick skinned and don't let asshats get to me..and NO I am NOT going to have a gastric bypass...I do NOT need to add to my woes, you know?
I rather be able to admire beautiful, big women.....like me....<wink>

[nycfem]

Sometimes people compliment my lean fingers. It sounds weird but I really get that occasionally! I always giggle and say thanks but what I really feel is angry, because it makes me feel like they found a thin part of me and thus a way to compliment me (kind of like the pretty face thing). On the flip side, I enjoy when people compliment my legs because it reminds me of my strength .

[clay]

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

Sometimes people compliment my lean fingers. It sounds weird but I really get that occasionally! I always giggle and say thanks but what I really feel is angry, because it makes me feel like they found a thin part of me and thus a way to compliment me (kind of like the pretty face thing). On the flip side, I enjoy when people compliment my legs because it reminds me of my strength .

Honey...you have a beautiful soul and an incredible loving heart...I heart YOU!

[ruby_woo]

Originally Posted by Miss_Tia

I hear women telling me what they cant wear...

I cant expose my arms, they are too big

I cant wear belts, my stumach is too large

I cant wear pants, my ass is too big

I cant wear sexy nighties because I am round

I cant wear shorts my legs are too fat

I cant wear heels because people will laugh

I cant wear sexy because no one will believe it

I cant wear dress-up because I will be a joke instead of sensual

I cant wear ....

I've never had any problem wearing colours, stripes, showing my arms, etc., but until recently I never EVER wore pants. I hated my ass and thighs so much I thought I had to hide them in skirts all the time. I love pretty dresses and skirts, but it's nice to branch out every now and then.

I guess I've been able to throw that out the window because I wore skinny jeans to work today, and they were freakin' cute.

[Canela]

I came to a point in my heart and my spirit where it was more important what I thought and felt about myself than what anyone else thinks, says or does. Not because I have no feelings or respect for anyone else, but because what I think matters just as much. It's equality...

Why? Because I am worthy of being important as are all of you, my sisters.

Just as important as anyone else thinks they are, that's how important I am, too. My feelings, my opinions, my heart, my desires, my mode of dress, my hair, my nails...(incidentally, I have short little fingers so I wear long nails ALL THE TIME with lots of bling too!)all have everything to do with me and no one else.

My weight?

Well, one day my youngest daughter was going into her school as I'd dropped her off that morning, and a smart ass boy said to her, "you're mom is fat". My daughter was 6 years old. She turns around and looks at me getting ready to drive away and she says to him, "my mommy's body is big because it has to carry around her big heart". 6 years old. (Is that what you meant, Katzchen? lol)

Now you know how tall I am. I am 10 feet tall.

[Soft*Silver]

I have had so many Drs tell me to lose weight so my medical problems would decrease. I actually had 3/4 of my stumach removed to repair a massive hiatal hernia. I assumed, as did many others, that this was going to act like bypass surgery. It did somewhat, but not completely. I lost about 30 lbs that have stayed off. I actually lost 50 but put 20 back on. And this is where I feel comfortable. If I worked at it, i could drop those 20 lbs but frankly, I dont want to. My Drs are telling me I need to. But i am stronger now than I have been ever since my accident. I feel so much better. Losing those 20 lbs isnt going to miraculously make me not disabled! I am always going to still walk with a limp, be stiff, be in pain. But I can run a store, ride a horse and walk my dogs! And be damn hot in a pair of shorts...and tank tops! LOL

[SingularNYCFemme]

Originally Posted by Canela

Well, one day my youngest daughter was going into her school as I'd dropped her off that morning, and a smart ass boy said to her, "you're mom is fat". My daughter was 6 years old. She turns around and looks at me getting ready to drive away and she says to him, "my mommy's body is big because it has to carry around her big heart".

Thanks to you and your daughter for a beautiful start to my day.

[SugarFemme]

I read this to my daughter last night, (She is now 19) and we both cried. How true and honest. To your daughter you are not her fat mom. You are just her wonderful mom. Good or bad, children see the world through such different eyes than adults. It's a shame that many don't carry "that" through to their adult years. Canela, give your daughter a hug for myself and my daughter please.

Originally Posted by Canela

Well, one day my youngest daughter was going into her school as I'd dropped her off that morning, and a smart ass boy said to her, "you're mom is fat". My daughter was 6 years old. She turns around and looks at me getting ready to drive away and she says to him, "my mommy's body is big because it has to carry around her big heart". 6 years old. (Is that what you meant, Katzchen? lol)

Now you know how tall I am. I am 10 feet tall.

[Kätzchen]

Hey Canela, yeah... I totally hear how precious children can be! My own boys were like that and still are.

I was gonna say today that for most of my growing up years, I was very slender. It wasn't until between my late 20s to late 30s that I actually experienced a huge wieght gain (my wieght spiraled past 340+ lbs) during that time period in my life and my wieght gain was largely connected to an undiagnosable heart condition that was eventually discovered in my early 40s. Over the past ten years or so, I've hovered around 200-260; currently I sit at 200#. Up until my early 20s I was terribly slender. My wieght during that period of time was around 155#. People called me Twiggy (for those of you who remember that model, years ago).

NYCfemBBW's story about the bathing suit episode and people commenting on her slender fingers (or her legs) reminds me of how people will make remarks about my 'beauty'. I work hard not to flinch or cringe when people make remarks to me of this nature. But I've come to learn over the years that we all grow in our own unique beautiful ways and even when it gets hard to be empathetic to others' lack of understanding or level of intelligence or whatever, that I just have to remember to breathe and count my lucky stars that for some reason I have been able to be too terribly offensive although I know I am not without fault. I'm human like that, I guess.

Hope everyone is having a beautiful day today.
I am. I terribly grateful for that, I am.

[SingularNYCFemme]

I was just on another site, one where I write a diary and read those of others, and one of my friends there wrote about her weight, and how it's always been a big issue for her; about various aches and issues that are tied to it. I wrote about acceptance; let her know she's splendid exactly as she is right now; and encouraged her to do what's best for her. She's a straight woman and hasn't got access to our wonderful thread or, I'm guessing, any fat positive sources. So: I am going to reach out (through diaries) to offer positive messages about herself ... myself ... all women of bounty, and hopefully she will at least know she has a friend who is supportive of her at any size, and encouraging her to love herself RIGHT NOW and not at some future time or some future size/weight.

I feel more blessed than ever to have come out as a lesbian, and a femme lesbian, and to have access to a space like this with fabulous folks who celebrate ourselves in ALL our glory! XOXOXO

[Canela]

Originally Posted by SingularNYCFemme

I was just on another site, one where I write a diary and read those of others, and one of my friends there wrote about her weight, and how it's always been a big issue for her; about various aches and issues that are tied to it. I wrote about acceptance; let her know she's splendid exactly as she is right now; and encouraged her to do what's best for her. She's a straight woman and hasn't got access to our wonderful thread or, I'm guessing, any fat positive sources. So: I am going to reach out (through diaries) to offer positive messages about herself ... myself ... all women of bounty, and hopefully she will at least know she has a friend who is supportive of her at any size, and encouraging her to love herself RIGHT NOW and not at some future time or some future size/weight.

I feel more blessed than ever to have come out as a lesbian, and a femme lesbian, and to have access to a space like this with fabulous folks who celebrate ourselves in ALL our glory! XOXOXO

Congratulations on paying it forward! How awesome that you step outside of your own comfort zone to help someone else who needs it. See, I think that's the "why" of why it's important that we share our stories, our successes especially and any thing that will help encourage and inspire others. Why? Because we can, and when we do it feels sooo good? (Not to mention why this thread exists.)

Am I right, SingularNYCFemme?

You are so awesome and special to go that extra mile for her! Good going, sis!

Big hugs and *snaps* to you!

Ephesians 4:29