The Purse: Unpacking Femme Privilege

[Reader]

Originally Posted by Reader

Just a few thoughts. One cannot fake being a femme, nor can one fake being a butch.

Take a femme, throw her in a flannel shirt, dirty jeans and work boots and she will still scream femme. Take a butch, tie her down and put a dress on her and she will still scream butch, no? I know that if I was forced into a dress I would look like a straight man pretending to be a transvestite.

A femme friend once said that she felt a sense of femme anti- privilege, or disadvantage for lack of a better word, because she often saw butches in the public giving each other the “hey dude” acknowledgment look.

She said it was hard for her to get butches to ever ask her out unless she was at a gay event, etc. She said it was a hard to get butches to pay attention to her in public and that other femmes had the same issue. This gave me pause.

So, like an idiot, as an experiment I began to ask women who seemed to be flirting with me (in non-gay places) out for coffee, just to see what would happen. Every single time I got a stunned look and was politely turned down. LOL. Now, sure , maybe I am beastly in every way and that was why I was turned down each time, but I sort of doubt it. I think the women were just straight. After being turned down so often in non-gay places I can see why femmes have a tough time getting butch attention.

I suspect each has its advantages or privileges, and the opposite.

Originally Posted by Angeltoes

True, but what about eye-contact first? If you lock eyes first, then you pretty much know how she feels. Around here butches seem to glance and wait for you to notice them. If you do they have the confidence to give that little smile and then if you wait around long enough you get approached.

Well, I hear you about the eye-contact thing. Perhaps in NJ it is different.

About two weeks ago I was in Dunkin Donuts and it was late at night and two nurses in scrubs were getting coffee. I was next to them getting my own coffee, when the dark-haired one began chatting me up. I chatted back. She was kind of nice and seemed like she could have been a femme lesbian, but it was hard to tell since she and her friend were both wearing scrubs.

I got the feeling she was flirting with me. Normally, I am sort of dense about such things, but I have been lacking a femme in my life, missing that pleasant femme energy a lot lately and so I am more aware of its absence, I guess.

She and her friend received their stuff and I said to her, "I'd be happy to get that for you ladies", holding out a bill in their server's direction. She said "Oh, uh,..." and she stammered and looked at her friend. I added, "Might I get those coffees for you?" She finally said, "Oh, no, no. Thanks anyway. We have it." I said "OK", paid for my coffee and left.

Now, I could interpret that interaction in a few ways. My best friend, a femme by the way, made a disparaging remark about straight women who enjoy flirting with butches when I recounted this tale to her. Maybe she was just a friendly woman who was not flirting at all. Who knows?

Until I am coupled, I will continue, on those rare occasions, to make friendly gestures to women who appear to flirt with me in public.

It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public. After all, a loaded gun, once properly disassembled, is rendered impotent. The same holds true for defeat.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Maybe she was flirting, and was confused or put off how that equaled getting her coffee payed for. Maybe next time slip her your number unnoticed.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Maybe she was flirting, and was confused or put off how that equaled getting her coffee payed for. Maybe next time slip her your number unnoticed.

calling them 'ladies' might not be a good idea either.......

I don't let random folks I am talking to in a line buy me coffee or anything else...........

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Toughy

calling them 'ladies' might not be a good idea either.......

I don't let random folks I am talking to in a line buy me coffee or anything else...........

Toughy, that's a whoooole fucking other thread I tell ya!

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Toughy, that's a whoooole fucking other thread I tell ya!

ain't it the truth.......

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by Reader

It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public.

How do you know you were shot down? She said no, you paid and left.

She could have very well been flirting because she was interested, but maybe she felt uncomfortable because she was with a co-worker/friend. You may have been able to continue to chat while she was waiting. You don't really know for sure whether you were shot down or not.

I personally don't allow anyone I don't know buy my coffee or anything else for that matter, even if it was a hot butch and I was single. Makes me uncomfortable; nothing personal against anyone.

What do you think you would have done if she said yes? Would that say to you that she is interested?

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Reader

Well, I hear you about the eye-contact thing. Perhaps in NJ it is different.

About two weeks ago I was in Dunkin Donuts and it was late at night and two nurses in scrubs were getting coffee. I was next to them getting my own coffee, when the dark-haired one began chatting me up. I chatted back. She was kind of nice and seemed like she could have been a femme lesbian, but it was hard to tell since she and her friend were both wearing scrubs.

I got the feeling she was flirting with me. Normally, I am sort of dense about such things, but I have been lacking a femme in my life, missing that pleasant femme energy a lot lately and so I am more aware of its absence, I guess.

She and her friend received their stuff and I said to her, "I'd be happy to get that for you ladies", holding out a bill in their server's direction. She said "Oh, uh,..." and she stammered and looked at her friend. I added, "Might I get those coffees for you?" She finally said, "Oh, no, no. Thanks anyway. We have it." I said "OK", paid for my coffee and left.

Now, I could interpret that interaction in a few ways. My best friend, a femme by the way, made a disparaging remark about straight women who enjoy flirting with butches when I recounted this tale to her. Maybe she was just a friendly woman who was not flirting at all. Who knows?

Until I am coupled, I will continue, on those rare occasions, to make friendly gestures to women who appear to flirt with me in public.

It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public. After all, a loaded gun, once properly disassembled, is rendered impotent. The same holds true for defeat.

Goodlooking, hot, very sweet-appearing butch, or not; no stranger buys me anything.

Very nicely, however, I would have said: "Thanks very much but I have this". If said butch was pleasant about it, I might have said, "But I have time to sit and drink some of my coffee with you, if you would like to chat".

Would you have said, OK or "I would like that"?

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Reader

Well, I hear you about the eye-contact thing. Perhaps in NJ it is different.

About two weeks ago I was in Dunkin Donuts and it was late at night and two nurses in scrubs were getting coffee. I was next to them getting my own coffee, when the dark-haired one began chatting me up. I chatted back. She was kind of nice and seemed like she could have been a femme lesbian, but it was hard to tell since she and her friend were both wearing scrubs.

I got the feeling she was flirting with me. Normally, I am sort of dense about such things, but I have been lacking a femme in my life, missing that pleasant femme energy a lot lately and so I am more aware of its absence, I guess.

She and her friend received their stuff and I said to her, "I'd be happy to get that for you ladies", holding out a bill in their server's direction. She said "Oh, uh,..." and she stammered and looked at her friend. I added, "Might I get those coffees for you?" She finally said, "Oh, no, no. Thanks anyway. We have it." I said "OK", paid for my coffee and left.

Now, I could interpret that interaction in a few ways. My best friend, a femme by the way, made a disparaging remark about straight women who enjoy flirting with butches when I recounted this tale to her. Maybe she was just a friendly woman who was not flirting at all. Who knows?

Until I am coupled, I will continue, on those rare occasions, to make friendly gestures to women who appear to flirt with me in public.

It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public. After all, a loaded gun, once properly disassembled, is rendered impotent. The same holds true for defeat.

maybe she just wasnt "out" to her friend. co-worker/work environment situations are hard for some people.

maybe she didnt know you were flirting. maybe she's the 2 x 4 type.

maybe she thought "OMG you think i'm flirting with you because i wanted you to pay for our coffee" and got embarrassed because she thought she was sending the wrong message

maybe she's married and didnt want her friend to see her accepting coffee from you or accuse her of flirting with someone

maybe she changed her mind mid flirt because your offer to pay was overt and she felt shy of it. (next time just pay the cashier for all 3 and walk away. if she's pleased she'll catch up with you to say 'thank you'.)

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

Yes, however the incident we are discussing, Reader offered to buy the women's coffee with the intention of getting something in return or else she wouldn't have said she was "shot down"; Not in an act of kindness towards a stranger. Which feeds into the reason why a lot of us wouldn't accept someone else paying for our coffee.

i thought the intention was to return the flirtation with equal interest and to check to see whether it was ok to take things one step further - i.e.: a cup of coffee. is that not so? i feel like i'm being slow here. sorry. "shot down" is just a phrase. i use it for all sorts of things that have nothing to do with me trying to get my groove on with someone. is it not ok for me to have thought, "oooh. way to get your flirt on!" when Reader offered to pay for coffee during a mutually engaged flirtation? people do it in bars all the time for more obvious reasons few of which involve intent that's above board. obviously Reader doesnt have any ill intent and coffee seems pretty benign to me. is this another one of those "(sigh) someone crack Nomad's skull open another inch please" education moments?

i want to understand both sides. i think i do understand both sides but i see them as a perspective in the moment sort of thing and not something that can be debated clearly because it's been taken out of context. i understand that it wasnt an altruistic act, thus eliminating the random act of kindness thing but is it necessarily a "wrong" act? cant it just be an act that is interpreted differently based on individual circumstances and the context of the moment or would it have always wrong for a femme (using Reader's reference word) to initiate or accept unexpected flirtation plus a sudden invitation for coffee from someone?

would we be talking about this at all if the person being offered something wasnt a femme? would it have been considered equally wrong if Reader was the one who received the "let me get that for you" from the femme? i understand the mindset behind leaving the "power to direct" with the person being approached (a femme, in this case) at first, allowing that person to tell you which direction they're willing to go and which direction they're not, and accepting that without attitude or aggression. that's just respect. and isnt that what Reader did? offered. got a "no thanks" and moved on without pushing?

if someone had done it for me i wouldnt have automatically thought "quit trying to buy me buster." i would have thought either "no thanks, not interested and dont want to lead you on" or "oooh! way to get your flirt on!" if that person were standing in line next to me at the grocery store and was flirting with me and then offered to pay my $60 grocery bill i'd have thought "uhm. no. creepy. buh bye now." but we're talking $2 here.

for the price of a cup of coffee my dignity cannot be bought. anyone assuming so would find themselves spitting out pieces of their pathetic ego by the time i was done with them. but for the price of a cup of coffee i might get the hint that someone was flirting with me. (i'm the 2 x 4 type meself)

i would sincerely appreciate further explanation/discussion. (small words, type slowly)

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by Nomad

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i thought the intention was to return the flirtation with equal interest and to check to see whether it was ok to take things one step further - i.e.: a cup of coffee. is that not so? i feel like i'm being slow here. sorry. "shot down" is just a phrase. i use it for all sorts of things that have nothing to do with me trying to get my groove on with someone. is it not ok for me to have thought "awww. that's sweet." when Reader offered to pay for coffee during a mutually engaged flirtation? i want to understand both sides but at this point the only one i "get" is Reader's. i understand that it wasnt an altruistic act, thus eliminating the random act of kindness thing. but is it necessarily a "wrong" act? I don't recall reading where it was said that it was wrong, what I have issue with is the assumption that had she said yes she must have been flirting, but because she said no, Reader was shot down. cant it just be an act that is interpreted differently based on individual circumstances? Of course it can. It is evident right in the responses in this thread.

if someone had done it for me i wouldnt have automatically thought "quit trying to buy me buster." i would have thought either "no thanks, not interested and dont want to lead you on" or "cool! the flirt is working!" now if the person standing in line next to me at the grocery store was flirting with me and offered to pay my $60 grocery bill i'd have thought "uhm. no. creepy." but we're talking $2 here. See, we differ here because I would never knowingly accept something from someone that I knew was flirting with me and i had no interest in, but accepted the offer cause shit, it's only 2 bucks. That to me is leading someone on. Okay, I am rereading and I misread what you said, sorry (I am leaving my original response so it makes sense to those who have read this already) Anyway, creep factor to me doesn't equate to the dollar amount, it has to do with the person's presentation of the offer. for the price of a cup of coffee my dignity cannot be bought. anyone assuming so would find themselves picking the pieces of their ego up off the floor when i was done with them. but for the price of a cup of coffee i might get the hint that someone was flirting with me. (i'm the 2 x 4 type meself)

i would sincerely appreciate further explanation/discussion. (small words, type slowly)

Bear with me, this will probably be all over the place.

Above Blue - Nomads text Red - My response

"Return the flirtation" and "mutually engaged flirtation" is assuming the woman was flirting back. Why is someone talking to someone else automatically flirting? Reader stated that she looked like she could be a femme lesbian. What does that even mean?

I talk to everyone. I will start a conversation with a stranger on the street, I say hello to anyone who makes eye contact, I chat up people in grocery lines, gas stations, coffee shops. Does that mean I am flirting? Nope, because I'm not. I am just a very friendly person. And I am also very conscious of cues that I get back from that person. And by that I mean if I feel that the person is misinterpreting my friendliness, I stop, nicely.

I personally have never had a stranger, out of the blue, want to buy something for me where I didn't feel like there was something more behind it. Am I jaded? Maybe. I like to think of myself as cautious. My experience has been with men wanting to buy me xyz with the intention that I will now give them more of my time, etc. (Now don't get me wrong, I like men. In my area of work I work mostly with men and most of them are the nicest guys. I say this because I don't want to convey the idea that I assume all men are out to get something.)

I find it easier to be consistent in politely saying no thank you then trying to interpret each situation. Don't have the desire and I just keep it moving under the assumption that it was a nice gesture.

And you can't compare being a line at a coffee shop with being in a bar. Two totally different environments; two totally different worlds. (I bartended for years in my twenties, so I have lots of experience with people buying other people drinks in bars).

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

Bear with me, this will probably be all over the place.

Above Blue - Nomads text Red - My response

"Return the flirtation" and "mutually engaged flirtation" is assuming the woman was flirting back. Why is someone talking to someone else automatically flirting? Reader stated that she looked like she could be a femme lesbian. What does that even mean?

I talk to everyone. I will start a conversation with a stranger on the street, I say hello to anyone who makes eye contact, I chat up people in grocery lines, gas stations, coffee shops. Does that mean I am flirting? Nope, because I'm not. I am just a very friendly person. And I am also very conscious of cues that I get back from that person. And by that I mean if I feel that the person is misinterpreting my friendliness, I stop, nicely.

I personally have never had a stranger, out of the blue, want to buy something for me where I didn't feel like there was something more behind it. Am I jaded? Maybe. I like to think of myself as cautious. My experience has been with men wanting to buy me xyz with the intention that I will now give them more of my time, etc. (Now don't get me wrong, I like men. In my area of work I work mostly with men and most of them are the nicest guys. I say this because I don't want to convey the idea that I assume all men are out to get something.)

I find it easier to be consistent in politely saying no thank you then trying to interpret each situation. Don't have the desire and I just keep it moving under the assumption that it was a nice gesture.

And you can't compare being a line at a coffee shop with being in a bar. Two totally different environments; two totally different worlds. (I bartended for years in my twenties, so I have lots of experience with people buying other people drinks in bars).

totally makes sense that there is an assumption going on. i think there's more than one but they're all fairly natural given the variety of filters being applied to the story. Reader mentioned something like it felt like the woman was flirting. i wasnt there so i'm making the assumption that Reader is right about the way the environment felt. those are just 2 examples.

i chose not to get caught up in the idea that someone looked like "a femme lesbian" because i understood the idea Reader was trying to convey. having said that, i agree with you. what does a femme lesbian "look like"? (there! now we're back to an aspect of the femme privilege conversation i derailed. )

we share the habit of beginning conversations with almost anyone. like you, i take my cues from the person i'm speaking to. mostly they're positive experiences and when they're not i also move on politely. again, Reader felt the woman in question was flirting and i was not there so i'm making the assumption that this was the case. with that being my jumping off point, i dont understand the issue with taking things one step further to see if the woman was interested in doing the same. very few people have the chutzpah to continue a flirtation without a return on the investment they're making when they put themselves out there.

i tended bar for several years also. i agree wholeheartedly that a bar and a coffee shop are two different worlds but i dont think they lack a shared arena of engagement. the difference in the intent of the people one finds there is another assumption as there is a whole group of people who dont drink for one reason or another and so they have to get their flirt on in other places. i've had more creepy experiences in coffee shops than i have in bars. (of course, i spend more time in coffee shops and am more interested in coffee than i am in booze so maybe my perspective is skewed!)

like you, i think that being sincerely but consistently polite by saying 'no thank you' mitigates any problem that might arise from saying yes but i'm not willing to say that every circumstance merits a no either. it's just what makes me most comfortable in most cases. i dont think your perspective is a jaded one. i think it's usually wise to choose the most neutral path given the way some people's minds work. it's not hard to misinterpret 'no thank you'. having said that, i have been in the position where a stranger has stepped up to make a similar offer more than a few times. i've said no more than i've said yes but when i did say yes my response was appropriate to the circumstances. i'm not sure what my point is here except that i think context matters. maybe part of the question is whether or not we can interpret these circumstances objectively from this perspective? we werent there and have to trust Reader's judgement. i wouldnt have said yes to the offer to buy my coffee either, unless i was flirting with Reader and felt safe saying yes. the fact that the woman was with a friend adds to the safety of the situation for her and Reader didnt lay out the story with the opening line "so i approached a completely random woman and came on to her." every circumstance has context. Reader noted the context of that particular situation and chose to act in a particular way given the information she thought she was getting from this woman. given the tone of almost all the other responses i wonder whether a yes in this situation would make (the collective and general) you consider the woman Reader approached as mercenary or just an idiot. what enlightenment would we be offering the femme who says "yes" to this offer of coffee? does context matter or is it always wrong to offer and wrong to say yes to such an offer? i'm not boarding the Naive-ville bus here. i get that psychos drink coffee too. but if we take danger off the table for a minute, isnt this just the way that some people meet one another? does there have to be a deeper meaning to it?

it's not my intention to derail the topic of this thread so i'll leave off asking more questions along this vein. i appreciate your perspective. you gave me more to think about. thanks for adding to my understanding.

[Ginger]

Just catching up on this thread ... such a good discussion.

I notice that when money becomes a variable in an interaction, emotions flare up and beliefs and assumptions surge up (in a way that enriches).

Money is such a loaded, divisive, triggering, complicated thing and concept.

Maybe there should be a "money" thread.