The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

And I don't disagree with any of this, I was responding to your inference that claiming other genders didn't make women any freer... and your relating it all in with the fight on sexism. I guess I assumed you were engaging with it.

Metro
*who is also pretty tired of talking about gender I'd like to see this thread continue in the spirit it was intended with or without me... doesn't matter... if it doesn't it's just another opportunity lost*

Metro I wasn't making that inference. I would try to explain, but I am a bit talked out at the moment. Peace.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Metro I wasn't making that inference. I would try to explain, but I am a bit talked out at the moment. Peace.

Ok Bull... no need to explain, I know I can take you at your word and I'll just re-read a little.

Thanx,
Metro

[BullDog]

Thanks Metro.

[BullDog]

How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.

In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.

So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.

In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.

So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?

Personally... and I can only speak for myself... the- evolution- of- my- gender- had- nothing- to- do- with- fighting- the- binary. I was what I am before I ever heard of or thought about "the binary".

I'm fighting the binary now because my spot (gender) in life is in direct contrast with it and it's (the binary) damaging to me and people I care about as well.

As far as it being predominantly born females embracing other gender... I've never seen that... as far as I've seen there's more than plenty of male born Trans, MTF Androgynes, Pangender, even Flamers... etc.

Hardly a butch phenomenon so I don't know how to address that. Anyway like I said I'm tired of talking about this subject in the context of Other Genders.

And with that I'll vacate and let the conversation go where it may... but I needed to say that.

Peace out,
Metro
P.S. I (personally) didn't "abandon" the gender of woman... I simply made a correction to a gender that was assigned to me by a binary society that still can't see the possibilities of more than two genders... and didn't see my possibilities.

[BullDog]

Metro, we seem to not be understanding each other too well at the moment. On a personal level your gender identity comes from within to match the person you feel you are. Mine does too. Identifying as butch is what feels right to me.

I understand more than two genders need to be recognized. I am not feeling a sense of balance with the whole "fighting the binary" that I keep hearing people talk about, and don't see what is being fought for or to what end. From my perspective woman gets lost in the shuffle, but I guess I am taking this too far afield from your intent. I am out too.

peace,
Bully

[AtLast]

Woman/female as less than continues to dominate our society even within a community such as this, that claims diversity and equality and constantly measures butchness from a male perspective. Which is really ass-backwards as butch is historically female.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.

In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.

So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?

Something that strikes me here (and does in general, especially as I have been involved in the B-F community) is that we do not look at this fight in terms of MtF's as equal warriors! Or, is this simply an extension of dominance and superiority? Sure, I see that the numbers of MtF's identifying as femme are much lower, but I just can't see where we get off that we are so damn gender conscious when we fail to recognize this part of the LGBTI community. I view this as very sexist and just more of the same relegation of the female to just not as important. Interesting, as the stats (as well as they can be gathered), point to higher numbers of MtF's overall.

As much as I embrace gender theory and see it as a means to unlock so many contraints (and personally, do see myself as Other gendered, 3rd gendered in many ways, pangendered is one to explore - all of which are not transgendered what is, will remain), I still see the same old man's world around me.

As a butch, I continue to fight not having what is female about me recognized and respected (by both butches & femmes). There are threads that continue to dismiss me as female and only consider what is masculine about me. And those that measure my worth as a butch by what fucking kind of underwear I wear!!

What really makes me nuts is the acceptance of stereotypes of men as being positive masculinity! These representations don't look like the men I know, love and respect. Thank-the-fucking-Goddesses!

I wish we would get back to what we experience as butches within the context of being female. I believe there are some areas of this experience that are very unique and just as injustices/discrimination of transgendered people need to be recognized, so do these variables.

Female is devalued at large and the female butch is devalued within the queer world as well.

have to add that I also see that many TG men here are actually much more aware of sexism than quite a few female-identified butches. One thought I have about this is that maybe it is because of their transitioning and all of the varied groups, organizations, even classes they are exposed to. So many of these experiences could expose sexism.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Something that strikes me here (and does in general, especially as I have been involved in the B-F community) is that we do not look at this fight in terms of MtF's as equal warriors! Or, is this simply an extension of dominance and superiority? Sure, I see that the numbers of MtF's identifying as femme are much lower, but I just can't see where we get off that we are so damn gender conscious when we fail to recognize this part of the LGBTI community. I view this as very sexist and just more of the same relegation of the female to just not as important. Interesting, as the stats (as well as they can be gathered), point to higher numbers of MtF's overall.

As much as I embrace gender theory and see it as a means to unlock so many contraints (and personally, do see myself as Other gendered, 3rd gendered in many ways, pangendered is one to explore - all of which are not transgendered what is, will remain), I still see the same old man's world around me.

As a butch, I continue to fight not having what is female about me recognized and respected (by both butches & femmes). There are threads that continue to dismiss me as female and only consider what is masculine about me. And those that measure my worth as a butch by what fucking kind of underwear I wear!!

What really makes me nuts is the acceptance of stereotypes of men as being positive masculinity! These representations don't look like the men I know, love and respect. Thank-the-fucking-Goddesses!

I wish we would get back to what we experience as butches within the context of being female. I believe there are some areas of this experience that are very unique and just as injustices/discrimination of transgendered people need to be recognized, so do these variables.

Female is devalued at large and the female butch is devalued within the queer world as well.

have to add that I also see that many TG men here are actually much more aware of sexism than quite a few female-identified butches. One thought I have about this is that maybe it is because of their transitioning and all of the varied groups, organizations, even classes they are exposed to. So many of these experiences could expose sexism.

Yes I agree there is very little discussion about MTFs when gender is discussed in butch femme circles. I do agree that it's sexism. I would also like to say I very much appreciate the support that trans women give to butch women. Whenever there is a discussion about butch women they always show their support. They are true gender warriors and great allies.

I don't think femmes get recognized nearly enough for their gender transgression or being gender warriors either.

Masculinity is closely associated with male/non-woman in butch femme/queer circles.

None of these things make me very confident that much is being done to effectively fight the binary. As I said earlier it's very much oriented to the masculine (non-woman versions) side of things.

Hopefully there can be more talk about the positive aspects of being butch females and women. I don't have anything to add in that regard at the moment.

[AtLast]

Any other thoughts? Seems like we never really got to the extent of our experiences.....

[Kobi]

It was interesting to reread this thread. It was interesting to discover I even posted in it way back when.

It has always felt odd to me to have to quantify and qualify the person and woman I am. I never aspired to be anything other than a female and a woman.

It was very clear to me at an early age that their were distinct differences between how males and females were seen and treated in our society. Yet, there didnt seem to be words for this until I was in my early teens. When I found the womens movement, back in its infancy, it was an aha! moment for me. Finally there was something that spoke to the person and woman I was.

It bothers me, to this day, when I am referred to both within and outside of our community as a masculine woman. I dont see myself as a masculine anything. I see myself as a woman who has always aspired to things that have traditionally been seen as the perogative of the masculine members of our human species.

I never sought to be masculine or to emulate masculine. I sought to redefine and expand female and woman. I am pro-female not anti-male.

It bothers me when I am not seen as a female in my own community or when I have to qualify it. It bothers me when I address something that is uniquely female i.e. pms or hot flashes and my words are judged to be sexist. And, that the words are seen as sexist based on how my identity is perceived.

Yet, I often have to do a rethink and reassess when I see something that strikes me as sexist or perhaps disrespectful to women because of how I perceive the id of the person posting it.

And, I always have to be mindful that what I might see as disrespectful to women may not be what another woman sees as disrespectful.

Complicated stuff. To me, the patriarchy is so ingrained in us through our socialization, the messages are so insidious and so pervasive that it is very difficult to not internalize this stuff to some degree. Thus, a single event, thought, word, action can be experienced in a multitude of ways depending on who is interpreting it using what filters in what context.

I dont know if I can explain this very well but I also see patriarchy steeped in binary concepts which extend throughout much of what we experience. We can talk about breaking out of the binary but can we? Is it realistic?

We talk about a spectrum but the spectrum is based on variations within the binary i.e. male-female, masculine-feminine, butch-femme, ying-yang, femaleid-maleid. The binary is the frame of reference we work from. We can modify it but can we break free from it?

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by AtLast

Something that strikes me here (and does in general, especially as I have been involved in the B-F community) is that we do not look at this fight in terms of MtF's as equal warriors! Or, is this simply an extension of dominance and superiority? Sure, I see that the numbers of MtF's identifying as femme are much lower, but I just can't see where we get off that we are so damn gender conscious when we fail to recognize this part of the LGBTI community. I view this as very sexist and just more of the same relegation of the female to just not as important. Interesting, as the stats (as well as they can be gathered), point to higher numbers of MtF's overall.

As much as I embrace gender theory and see it as a means to unlock so many contraints (and personally, do see myself as Other gendered, 3rd gendered in many ways, pangendered is one to explore - all of which are not transgendered what is, will remain), I still see the same old man's world around me.

As a butch, I continue to fight not having what is female about me recognized and respected (by both butches & femmes). There are threads that continue to dismiss me as female and only consider what is masculine about me. And those that measure my worth as a butch by what fucking kind of underwear I wear!!

What really makes me nuts is the acceptance of stereotypes of men as being positive masculinity! These representations don't look like the men I know, love and respect. Thank-the-fucking-Goddesses!

I wish we would get back to what we experience as butches within the context of being female. I believe there are some areas of this experience that are very unique and just as injustices/discrimination of transgendered people need to be recognized, so do these variables.

Female is devalued at large and the female butch is devalued within the queer world as well.

have to add that I also see that many TG men here are actually much more aware of sexism than quite a few female-identified butches. One thought I have about this is that maybe it is because of their transitioning and all of the varied groups, organizations, even classes they are exposed to. So many of these experiences could expose sexism.

This resonated with me mostly because I too see that MtF transgendered are treated as less than yet, they often feel more like a woman energetically than male-ID or butch women. And transwomen will often experience more violence, trauma, hurt and pain in order to be see as they truly are than bio-dames or butch women. It's such a stigma to express estrogen that some love to beat up any that express E.
And it saddens me that any feel devalued because of how they run their energy. Transgendered women and men tend to feel this way because they have the hormonal levels of the genders (or genders) they feel. I think all of medicine did a collective "D'OH!" when they saw those figures.

[Parker]

Even after sitting on it for what, 4 days, I cant seem to get past my anger at the above post telling me that transwomen "feel more like a woman" and "experience more violence" than I do as a butch woman. I'm trying to let it go because I dont want to derail the thread even further, but it just reiterates to me how, to some people, butches are just not seen as women.

Then when it comes to the pronouns and how when I correct someone who calls me he/hy online, they get pissed off at me, like I did something offensive by telling them I am a woman who prefers she; or when someone tells me they prefer butches who use he/hy because they like their butches more masculine, it reiterates to me that, to some people, butch women are still seen as less than and not masculine "enough" because we are women .... or worse, like we arent really even butches at all.

I see variations of these things almost everyday and it makes me feel invisible as a woman AND as a butch.

It's interesting how this thread is well over 2yrs old and things havent really changed - I can read Metro/Jett's and Bulldog's posts from then and they resonate within me now. There were so many posts I wanted to quote, I had to finally just stop hitting the little multi-quote button. lol

It's one thing to be misunderstood by the world at large - hell, I expect that because in their heads, masculine = male and feminine = female so to see someone like me: a butch woman who, even though I dont bind or pack, I still unintentionally pass as male 90% of the time every single day ... it just blows their fucking minds and their belief system goes all haywire on them.

Even in the lesbian community at large, butches and femmes are still sometimes seen as emulating a male/female couple from the 1950's - outdated and conforming to the binary.

So it really bothers me when that same mentality crosses over into a community like this - where butches are treated as men, even if we dont ID that way. We are expected to dress, talk, walk, and act a certain way, have sex a certain way, etc. and if we deviate from that maleness, we are considered less than.

Intellectually, I understand it is all rooted in sexism - masculinity and maleness is valued more in this patriarchal society than femininity and femaleness - but it doesnt suck any less to see it laid out in front of me day after day.