Third or Other Gender Butch

[AtLast]

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female ....

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female ....

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual.But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

AtLast,

I can say that for me I am using the term TG to only refer to male/men/masculine because this thread is about the third gendered or other gendered butch and is not about transgenderism in general (or transgenderism at all in most of the posts I have seen).

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I can see *how* TG *might* "get out into the male pile", but I don't think that's how it's used within the TG community as a whole

While general society *might* see it as a "well, if you're not woman than you're man" type o' deal, I know I personally don't use it that way.

One reason for my not using it that way is because it would automatically exclude femmes who ID as TG

I think in a strictly binary world, TG would probably be used as a "well if you're not woman then you're man" type of thing, but I think just about everyone on this site acknowledges the binary is bullshit.

In my world, TG isn't just about man/woman or male/female...it's about ANYONE who steps out of the binary. Most of the people I talk to who frequent TG conferences, conversations, meet ups, etc feel the same way.

Femme is/can be a gender just as much as butch (or any other gender)...to turn TG into binary excludes shit-tons (that's Dylan-metric) of people from the TG movement, and turns it into a trans-sexed issue. It also asks people to once again conform to binary ideas...which is exactly what many TG people refuse to do in the first place.

Dylan

Originally Posted by DapperButch

AtLast,

I can say that for me I am using the term TG to only refer to male/men/masculine because this thread is about the third gendered or other gendered butch and is not about transgenderism in general (or transgenderism at all in most of the posts I have seen).

Dapper & Dylan and Met:

I see where all of you are coming from. Ah, I like the shit-tons metric!

I have to say that in real time, I also run into the TG as male only phenomenon too. But, this seems to be more within the very narrow lesbian community that I think, does continue to fight inclusion (and support) of transgendered people. They tend to only see this in terms of male transition. God, I want to slap them ('cause, yanno, MtF's aren't really women like us)!

My main reason for bringing this up has more to do with a couple of MtF's (that claim femme) I know as well as an intergendered cousin that is female (what she claimed). And my feelings about female devaluation.

But, yes, I see that the thread is addressing butch phenomena.

Also, it kind of sux that many butches that view themselves as other or 3rd-gendered, feel as they are posting here in terms of the assumptions that get made right here in our own community.

I think TG as an umbrella term is what gets this all confused... as well as just a lack of knowledge about gender in general. I know, I have to continually take a look at the literature.

Yes.... we end up back in the binary and this is crazy-making!! And frustrating.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Dapper & Dylan and Met:

I see where all of you are coming from. Ah, I like the shit-tons metric!

I have to say that in real time, I also run into the TG as male only phenomenon too. But, this seems to be more within the very narrow lesbian community that I think, does continue to fight inclusion (and support) of transgendered people. They tend to only see this in terms of male transition. God, I want to slap them ('cause, yanno, MtF's aren't really women like us)!

My main reason for bringing this up has more to do with a couple of MtF's (that claim femme) I know as well as an intergendered cousin that is female (what she claimed). And my feelings about female devaluation.

But, yes, I see that the thread is addressing butch phenomena.

Also, it kind of sux that many butches that view themselves as other or 3rd-gendered, feel as they are posting here in terms of the assumptions that get made right here in our own community.

I think TG as an umbrella term is what gets this all confused... as well as just a lack of knowledge about gender in general. I know, I have to continually take a look at the literature.

Yes.... we end up back in the binary and this is crazy-making!! And frustrating.

I have a number of very close femme friends who ID as cis-female, but who consider their gender femme...they consider themselves transgender, and have a helluva time (even in and sometimes mostly in queer space) fighting for their space in the TG world.

I truly believe they have a harder time than butches explaining their gender, because it's always assumed they mean they're trans-sexed as opposed to genderly outside the binary. Most people can't fathom how femme is a gender when you ID as cis-female, and your gender presentation falls in line with stereotypical ideas of femininity (woman), etc. I think femmes are continually left out of this conversation or dismissed, because their gender doesn't necessarily fall in line with limited binary thinking...i.e. femme isn't seen as any type of 'crossing over' or any other limited definition most people use to define 'transgender'. It's commonly (and erroneously) just assumed that 'femme' falls in line with cultural norms of woman/female/femininity, so "what? What's the big deal? There's no struggle...only butches 'struggle'." Which I then think leads back to the idea that in order to 'qualify' as transgender, One has to want 'the opposite'...which then leads back to binary thinking...which then leads back to stereotypes...which then leads back to Butches Want To Be Men Syndrome and Femmes' Invisibility.

I agree it's incredibly frustrating...it's even more ridiculously frustrating when it happens in queer space among people who claim to *know better* than to fall for binary thinking

I think the term transgender was *once* used as a term primarily for trans-sexed individuals, however, I really see a pulling away from this thinking. I mean, in some conversations I see transgender and transsexed used interchangeably, but in real time conversations, I see a big pulling away from this interchangeability. I see a lot of pulling away in some online communities also. Basically, I see the most interchangeability in conversations had among completely clueless straight people or in very basic definitions.

My real time groups of transgendered friends/acquaintances include butches, femmes, folks on hormones who just want to present differently (but who have no intention of changing their sex), third genders, genderfucts, genderqueers, pangender, zies, two-sprits, and everything in between.


Avoiding Work,
Dylan

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female ....

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

I can see *how* TG *might* "get out into the male pile", but I don't think that's how it's used within the TG community as a whole

While general society *might* see it as a "well, if you're not woman than you're man" type o' deal, I know I personally don't use it that way.

One reason for my not using it that way is because it would automatically exclude femmes who ID as TG

I think in a strictly binary world, TG would probably be used as a "well if you're not woman then you're man" type of thing, but I think just about everyone on this site acknowledges the binary is bullshit.

In my world, TG isn't just about man/woman or male/female...it's about ANYONE who steps out of the binary. Most of the people I talk to who frequent TG conferences, conversations, meet ups, etc feel the same way.

Femme is/can be a gender just as much as butch (or any other gender)...to turn TG into binary excludes shit-tons (that's Dylan-metric) of people from the TG movement, and turns it into a trans-sexed issue. It also asks people to once again conform to binary ideas...which is exactly what many TG people refuse to do in the first place.


Dylan

[Jett]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female ....

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

Yeah I'm not quite getting this.

Because of "butch" direction of this thread TG is being used in that masculine context more often sure... in this conversation.

That was in no way represents TG as a whole.

When I said I don't use it because it tends to make some believe I feel male, that was meant in a butch related context only, that my being known as female bodied peeps assume when I label TG that I'm saying I'm male minded.

If I was male bodied and said it some peeps would automatically think I was saying I was female minded.

That's the prob for me... peeps wrapped up in an either or binary... not with the term TG... which is a non binary term.

[swagger]

the more i think about gender, as opposed to sex, the more i suspect myself of having no gender. seriously.

[noneoftheabove]

I really like this thread. I can't relate to man or woman either. In my head I have a male body but I am ok with having a physically female body. Somehow my brain is not registering this as a problem, and I have little to no dysphoria. I prefer he because it refers to the male that I see myself as but she is OK with me as long as it is referring to just my surface. I've been more uncomfortable to the people's reactions around me to the pronouns I've been called than to the pronouns themselves.

[Gráinne]

I'm new, and somehow stumbled into this thread.

I am biologically female, but not a woman. I have a strong streak of masculinity in me, but I am not a man. As far back as I can remember, even before realizing I was lesbian, I knew I didn't fit into "girl" or "boy". It's not about transitioning into an "opposite", but realizing that I am both and neither.

I feel that gender isn't all-one or all the other, but is a kind of continuum. I would go as far as to say that I believe there are more than three genders, that don't necessarily manifest themselves in appearance but are on the inside. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but that's OK; it only has to make sense to me.

When I first came out, I thought I had to "pick one"-butch or femme, and I couldn't fit 100% in either. So again, I am both and I am neither. I don't know if "andro" fits, or even if that word is still used. It feels a little unnerving, not having a box to check, so to speak, but on the other hand, it's liberating. I kind of like being open to whatever feels right on a given day.

[Gryph]

Originally Posted by guihong

I'm new, and somehow stumbled into this thread.

I am biologically female, but not a woman. I have a strong streak of masculinity in me, but I am not a man. As far back as I can remember, even before realizing I was lesbian, I knew I didn't fit into "girl" or "boy". It's not about transitioning into an "opposite", but realizing that I am both and neither.

I feel that gender isn't all-one or all the other, but is a kind of continuum. I would go as far as to say that I believe there are more than three genders, that don't necessarily manifest themselves in appearance but are on the inside. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but that's OK; it only has to make sense to me.

When I first came out, I thought I had to "pick one"-butch or femme, and I couldn't fit 100% in either. So again, I am both and I am neither. I don't know if "andro" fits, or even if that word is still used. It feels a little unnerving, not having a box to check, so to speak, but on the other hand, it's liberating. I kind of like being open to whatever feels right on a given day.

This is why I am a Two-Spirit. Except in my life right now and in the future. I am more masculine and do use the male pronouns. I have already been/done the femme/female, so its time for the other.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by guihong

I feel that gender isn't all-one or all the other, but is a kind of continuum. I would go as far as to say that I believe there are more than three genders, that don't necessarily manifest themselves in appearance but are on the inside. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but that's OK; it only has to make sense to me.

You make sense to me, guihong.

I don't relate to masculine or feminine. Butch is plenty enough for me, except in situations where I use butch woman because I don't wish to be swept up as male identified. (I look "masculine" to some people's eye.)