What attracts you to Ftms ......

[femmsational]

Just curious.......what would be the approved of method for those people who do fit best into what's being describe as the "june cleaver".....role, for lack of a better word.

I ask because this comes up over and over and the arguments are always the same and they always go round and round.

I understand that there is a very clear line when speaking about what works for you as an individual. Do so in your "me" voice and don't step on the backs of others to explain why your way works. That should be obvious enough to any grown person who has interacted with other grown people on a regular basis. I understand that when that, very clear line, is stepped over, it's gonna be brought up, as it should.

Where I get hung up about this, especially on this topic is why then, when we are reminded that our way doesn't work for everyone and we need to be more aware of words, thoughts and actions, do we then go into a history lesson of all the ills perpertrated on others during that era?


And please hear this....I am NOT dismissing the ignorant/non-tolerant/dumbass ways in which most rich white men acted back then.

What I am asking is, can we come up with a way to discuss the needs of some, without having to go into a history lesson and describe all the ways that feeling comfortable as 'june cleaver' is so antiquated, old fashioned....blahblahblah.

I fit this category. It's the me that fires my soul. And I am not old fashioned, weak or antiquated in my thinking. So there must be some way to be okay with both trains of thought. Or at least I would hope, as adults we could figure out a way to be tolerant of everyone that is not me.


Just really wishing for tolerance across the board. Probably another of my many pollyana moments but, such is life.


Take Care,
julie


P.S. What I love about most FTM's is the strength that seems to acrue during the transition. It's a strong person that can spit in the eye of "normal" to become their normal. Makes me all squishy inside.

[Chancie]

What bothers me is not the desire to dance a waltz with predetermined steps and roles, if that's the dance you most enjoy.

It's the very weird assumption from a bunch of queers that it reflects the good old days.

Who were they good for, anyway?

I know that there are queers who aspire to the financial freedom to a very particular lifestyle choice but

The good old days?

Yes, some young men were more polite to older women than we might see on public transportation but

You would be safe to assume that a young white man sat with his legs spread way out while older Black women stood.

Surely those of you who wish for a marriage that mirrors The Cleavers can find a more descriptive way of describing it than the tired old chestnut, Oh, how I miss the good old days, or I am an old fashioned man or femme or butch.

ETA PS My post is not a response to Julie's post.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by femmsational

What I am asking is, can we come up with a way to discuss the needs of some, without having to go into a history lesson and describe all the ways that feeling comfortable as 'june cleaver' is so antiquated, old fashioned....blahblahblah.

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Chancie

What bothers me is not the desire to dance a waltz with predetermined steps and roles, if that's the dance you most enjoy.

It's the very weird assumption from a bunch of queers that it reflects the good old days.

Who were they good for, anyway?

I know that there are queers who aspire to the financial freedom to a very particular lifestyle choice but

The good old days?

Yes, some young men were more polite to older women than we might see on public transportation but

You would be safe to assume that a young white man sat with his legs spread way out while older Black women stood.

Surely those of you who wish for a marriage that mirrors The Cleavers can find a more descriptive way of describing it than the tired old chestnut, Oh, how I miss the good old days, or I am an old fashioned man or femme or butch.

ETA PS My post is not a response to Julie's post.

LOL!! It would have been ok if it was in response to my post. :-)

Basically, I'm asking the same thing you are. How can we talk about this 'june cleaver' way of living, without going back in history.

I know I call it the good old days, but that's cause I don't know any other concise way to describe what works for me. And normally only with people who are heterosexual. There has GOT to be a way that won't twist everybodys nose outta whack. You know??


julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

Julie, the problem isn't stating one's (general) preferences, the issues that arise each and every time is when someone talks about their preferences and then in the same sentence is dismissive to others who aren't.


I'm a queer Leather Femme I can discuss my many likes, wants, desires, needs without having to talk about others that aren't or even mention them.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

Some may be, some I know for sure aren't.

How do I talk about what works for us (my other half and I) without upsetting the apple cart.

Serious question. Not trying to cause a snark fest.


And one more thing, there is nothing wrong with wishing there was a little more common decency in this world.


julie

[BullDog]

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Julie, the problem isn't stating one's (general) preferences, the issues that arise each and every time is when someone talks about their preferences and then in the same sentence is dismissive to others who aren't.


I'm a queer Leather Femme I can discuss my many likes, wants, desires, needs without having to talk about others that aren't or even mention them.

That's exactly what I said in my first post.

I say it for both sides of this coin.

And not just this issue. You, general you, should be able to express an opinion without shitting all over someone elses choices/needs/wants/must haves. It SHOULD be a very simple thing. Or at least I think it should be.


j

[princessbelle]

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by BullDog

In my mind the 50s did not have more common decency. In my mind there was much less. One glaring example- Black Southerners had to sit in the back of the bus. That's not decent.

Oh my god! Really, you think that's what I'm talking about?


I'm not going to get sucked into a discussions of the idiot thoughts, ideas and action that happened "back then" And am not questioning whether they happened.


Would a better example be....people from a small town?? No, cause then I'm dismissing or um...insinuating that city people are rude, crude and socially undesierable.


This is my point. Common decency, when talking about behavior, is not a political thing to me. It's, holy crap, don't let your kids run all over the store yanking all the darn clothes of the racks onto the floor. It's, oh my god, don't run me over trying to get the last stone cold creamer. And maybe....em....let me out into the road if there is a red light and you're waiting for it anyways. The small things.

Not the big stupid political and social ills of the past. The little stuff. That's my common decency.

How can I talk about the things that work for me in my life and my relationship without having someone remind me of the evils of society, WHICH I AM NOT DISMISSING, especially in the era people seem hell bent on smearing on my idea of normal for me.


j

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by femmsational

That's exactly what I said in my first post.

I say it for both sides of this coin.

And not just this issue. You, general you, should be able to express an opinion without shitting all over someone elses choices/needs/wants/must haves. It SHOULD be a very simple thing. Or at least I think it should be.


j

It is pretty simple, at least you would think it was. Unfortunately people don't stick to their me place and diss those that aren't like them.

True story read back

[Martina]

Keep in mind that I usually engage in power exchange relationships, as a submissive, on a 24/7 basis.

I think that doing 50's household outside of a fetish setting IS reenacting patriarchal ideologies and power structures. Sure it's a choice that anyone can make, and I truly do not care what other consenting adults do. But do not tell me that you -- generic 50'shouseholder you (not any particular poster) -- are realizing some better, nobler way of life. Do not describe it as a return to better values. It's your fetish, your thing, what makes you hot. Call it that.

We have had a couple on this very site -- banned now, I believe -- claim that this arrangement was the healthiest way to live and raise children. They really meant that. They wrote it. On a feminist site.

If you want to recreate the gender power dynamics in a way that you imagine were current in the 1950's, by all means do it. Have a great time. But do not say you are in any way modeling a more mannerly or civilized way of life. You may be a mannerly and civilized person. But you are not realizing a social construct that ANYONE except similar fetishists should adopt.

The fact is that 50's household, by definition, gives power to the male ID'd person, not the person of whatever gender who is inherently more powerful. That's what you are enacting. It happens to be a fit for you as a couple. It HAPPENS to be. It is not a good model for most people. Pretending it is morally righteous in anyway recapitulates patriarchal ideology.

[GraffitiBoi]

So... ummm... back to what attracts you to FTMs... LOL

[JAGG]

Ya know know they had some pretty cool cars in the 1950's. And didn't cheeseburgers look so much better back then? French fries did too come to think of it. Just sayin

[BullDog]

You know what Julie the white washing of history bothers me greatly and I will speak up about it.

People can have whatever types of relationships they want, but when they start talking about certain people having superior manners and how people treated each other so much better back then I do have something to say.

Intolerance of views works both ways.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Julie,

Maybe it's because we see things differently.

Say someone is romanticizing the 50s and say they are thinking of a femme or whatever, wearing an apron, being home all day, welcoming their FtM/butch ect home to a hot cooked meal with the kids up in the bedroom studying, and see this as heaven on earth and bliss.

But, to others it is seen for literally what it was...oppression, Domination without consent, POC being unaccepted and unacceptable, kids being locked away in their bedrooms for endless hours to do homework, just to keep them quiet and out of the way, ect.

Just a thought here, but maybe some peeps are seeing this in a figurative way, not realistic to the actual times and trials and derogatory existence that many of us know was the truth. And others are seeing this as a literal, real existence that so many have fought against and pledge never to go backward again.

Maybe it boils down to a "daydreaming" perfect world vs. reality.

Maybe that is where the bridge is. Not sure.

Just my thoughts.

I agree. Anything done that is not your choice is stupid and quite frankly dangerous. Everyone should do as they feel they should do as long as it doesn't infringe on others. And why should we feel we have the right to care??? If it is a personal choice and consensual and nobody has to smack others around (figurativly) to feel ok about it...then have at it.

Like I tried to ask in my first post....how then, can we talk about it.

Obviously we are lacking understanding in the language needed to discuss this particular "kink". And i don't think it's a kink but I don't know what else to call it. Maybe preference??? Is that a better word? How do we discuss this without causing a big hoorah.

What words? Like specific words can I use to describe what works for Brute and I without bringing up disgusting parts of our history. Cause it's not a perfect world I strive for, it's a realistic world. But I need to know how to talk about it with giving offense to others.


j

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

It is pretty simple, at least you would think it was. Unfortunately people don't stick to their me place and diss those that aren't like them.

True story read back

I get that, for real I do.

That's why I said that when the, very clear line is crossed it should and must be addressed. I mean that truely.

I just would like to know words to use that will not offend others when talking about what works for us. You know me and the three year old beast

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by femmsational

I get that, for real I do.

That's why I said that when the, very clear line is crossed it should and must be addressed. I mean that truely.

I just would like to know words to use that will not offend others when talking about what works for us. You know me and the three year old beast

I'm going to guess if you're talking about what attracts you to Brutus then you're going to speak from your desires, it's not going to be a cookie cutter descriptor of what rocks your boat. I don't assume you guys (you and the Brutal One) are cookie cutter considering how original Aj is.

[RNguy]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Yanno, every few years this argument pops up. It's a case of what floats someone's boat, not making social commentaries.

The 50s era was not exactly beneficial to the progress of women's rights. It kinda sucked at it in a big way. But if someone wants to dress in an apron and take care of their man/guy/butch/wife/etc in ways that simulate that time, then what beeswax is it to anyone else HOW they do it as long as it's not abusive? Really? C'mon now.

That's like you (general you) saying "I like to beat my honey's ass black and blue before church every Sunday" and getting shit on for saying it. It's their thing and their kink, if you will. Let's see someone tell someone else how to do their kink and see what kind of fiasco we have. No one is pushing it on anyone else. Those in favor of this lifestyle are expressing their love for it.

Someone please explain the problem with that to me. They aren't demanding women's rights be taken back to that time; they are saying 'this is how I am and what I like'. Period.

Oh gemme ,
Out of this entire thread your post right here is my favorite post . Perfectly said !!!!!!!

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Martina

Keep in mind that I usually engage in power exchange relationships, as a submissive, on a 24/7 basis.

I think that doing 50's household outside of a fetish setting IS reenacting patriarchal ideologies and power structures. Sure it's a choice that anyone can make, and I truly do not care what other consenting adults do. But do not tell me that you -- generic 50'shouseholder you (not any particular poster) -- are realizing some better, nobler way of life. Do not describe it as a return to better values. It's your fetish, your thing, what makes you hot. Call it that.

We have had a couple on this very site -- banned now, I believe -- claim that this arrangement was the healthiest way to live and raise children. They really meant that. They wrote it. On a feminist site.

If you want to recreate the gender power dynamics in a way that you imagine were current in the 1950's, by all means do it. Have a great time. But do not say you are in any way modeling a more mannerly or civilized way of life. You may be a mannerly and civilized person. But you are not realizing a social construct that ANYONE except similar fetishists should adopt.

The fact is that 50's household, by definition, gives power to the male ID'd person, not the person of whatever gender who is inherently more powerful. That's what you are enacting. It happens to be a fit for you as a couple. It HAPPENS to be. It is not a good model for most people. Pretending it is morally righteous in anyway recapitulates patriarchal ideology.

As for the red, holy crap! Nobody has a right to tell anyone what is or is not the right way to do anything. That's just plain crazy to me.


Not everybody fits into that vision Martina. I'm not trying to be a role model and I sure am not trying to sell my version of yummy to anyone else. I don't even think I really buy into what works for me as being a "50's" way of being.

But for us, it does work that I stay at home (head injury and all) and Brute works. I cook, he takes out the trash....when he's home dammit!!! He deals with certain "male" things and I deal with certain "female" things. But's that's not how we live or define ourselfs. It's just works out that what he does best is what society has labeled the "man" thing and what I do best, society has labeled the "woman" thing.

And I think that's the root of this issue. Because society sees certain traits and behaviors as gendered, the fact that what seems to work for me to be me, is labeled as societies idea of man or woman. I can't help that. Just because society decides that such and such is such and such, and I don't like societies version of such and such, that doesn't mean I still don't fell more comfortable with MY version of such and such. I'm sure that made absolutly no sense to anyone but me. LOL!


About manners....I don't place any sort of....I don't know what to call it...judgement maybe? on where my ideas of polite and mannerly come from. All I know is that people act rude in public and that's fucked up. The only thing I can relate it to is the law. Your rights end where my nose begins. So if your child is running around the store throwing things on the floor, they are walking on my nose.

This is so hard to articulate. I wish I had better words.


j