June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[femmsational]

Can I ask two questions???


And please know that I mean NO disrespect, there is absolutely NO judgement, and I admire everybody for doing what they feel is authintic in their life.


1- When I saw Snow's first question. It seemed real simple to me. As evidenced by my response.

My question......how do we go from what *I* feel is a simple straight forward, the world was stupid, some people are still stupid answer, into a discussion of the feminist movement and the power players and et al.?

I know that sometimes I don't get down and dirty with things, but for me, the most simple answer is the most logical solution kinda thing?? Again, there is no judgement. I strictly want to understand the line of thinking. Cause maybe a little part of me feels I should go there too. you know? I really do. When I was in law school we had many courses in which we had to dig into the minds of others and I think I still have a hangover from that.


2- Medusa's last post help me formulate this question that has been bouncing around in my head for a while. Thanks Medusa!!

As a femme, I enjoy, love, need the bonding with other femmes. I love talking about what makes each one the femme they are. I like hearing histories and being invited into their lives and understanding what made them the femme they are today. However, I'm not understanding why we as femmes need to completley tear apart the meaning of femme, try to understand and put constraints on what *femme* is, is not, should be, could be...etc. Or Medusa are you talking more about just bonding discussions on a larger scale. Because I understand those. Obviously, I've never had the gift of being able to attend a conferance. And I sure am glad I missed that first one you described. I'm not nice.

It concerns me for a couple reasons if we are trying to label and define *femme.* But that's just me. And I really want to understand how other think about that?

Another note....I do COMPLETLEY agree that in the past, present and future, people have and will, display horrible bigotry towards people that are not *them*. The others I guess I'd call it. I believe that whatever group has been *othered* should stand up and call that bullshit out real quick and in a hurry!!! Actually, I feel that even when not in the *othered* group, if dumb shit behavior is displayed, you (general) should call it out. But I have concerns about how some of this sets up an us-vs-them sorta vibe which to *memememe* can be just as harming.

I'm not going real deep into my thinking because I really want to see what *you* think about my questions. Cause to me, that's WAY more interesting that thought i live with daily.

Or maybe this should be a different thread. Oh well, I just thought I'd through it out here and see.



j

[Martina]

Originally Posted by femmsational

However, I'm not understanding why we as femmes need to completley tear apart the meaning of femme, try to understand and put constraints on what *femme* is, is not, should be, could be...etc.

It concerns me for a couple reasons if we are trying to label and define *femme.* But that's just me. And I really want to understand how other think about that?

j

I think it's a bad idea to insist on some kind of public definition for femme although we all have our own. I think femme exists. We can attest to that. It can be named. But defining it will inevitably exclude. Iamkeri's definition is exclusionary. It would exclude me, for example. There are some amazing discussions about what it means to be African American. Finally, it comes down to being subjected to the kind of racism we in this country reserve for that group.

We can talk about what it MEANS to be femme, and I think those conversations are valuable. They include descriptions of our sexuality, our aesthetics, our politics, our humor, our experiences with invisibility, and so on. They will vary widely. That is the stuff out of which some sense of what femme means comes. And it should stay as unformed as that. IMO. As Judith Butler says, you have to risk a little incoherence for connection to be possible.

Part of allowing for incoherence means that the cooptation that Medusa decries is even easier. I don't favor policing our boundaries. People will coopt femme. That stuff happens, and policing it is pointless. If you start policing such things, you will end up policing one another too -- and excluding.

In a way, this discussion is very uncomfortable. I have no stake in arguing with Iamkeri. I have read her posts and respected them for a long time. I respect how she lives her life. But she just told me I am not femme. I had an emotional reaction to that even though I grant her definition no authority over me. I think these conversations are valuable, but they are not without risk. I think, femmsational, you are acknowledging that in your expression of concern.

But they are also valuable. That thread about femmes fucking femmes was very helpful to me. MY personal perception lately has been that the way femme is here has been narrowing a bit. I am so not going to take that on. If my feelings about that had remained unchanged, I imagine my partipation would have waned. That thread gave me a real lift, opened things up for me. I appreciated it.

[julieisafemme]

Hi Julie! I am glad you got your coffee. I have my tea.

If I can paraphrase your two questions:

How do we go from the 50s sucked to a larger discussion of feminism?

Why do we have to break down femme?

I hope I have those right.

I think that taking any conversation to a bigger picture place is always helpful and, to me, fun. There are many times that I don't understand what people are talking about and am limited, especially in writing, from grasping the point. Sometimes I might figure it out months later! Heh! So I think that there can always be meaning beyond what seems to be a simple discussion. The fun part is that meaning might be vastly different for different people.

As far as why break down femme? For me as a latecomer to femme this ongoing discussion has been enormously helpful. I love hearing how other people experience femme. I do not always agree. It does not matter though because I have learned I can still be femme even if I don't agree with how others do it! That was a big deal to me.

Originally Posted by femmsational

Can I ask two questions???


And please know that I mean NO disrespect, there is absolutely NO judgement, and I admire everybody for doing what they feel is authintic in their life.


1- When I saw Snow's first question. It seemed real simple to me. As evidenced by my response.

My question......how do we go from what *I* feel is a simple straight forward, the world was stupid, some people are still stupid answer, into a discussion of the feminist movement and the power players and et al.?

I know that sometimes I don't get down and dirty with things, but for me, the most simple answer is the most logical solution kinda thing?? Again, there is no judgement. I strictly want to understand the line of thinking. Cause maybe a little part of me feels I should go there too. you know? I really do. When I was in law school we had many courses in which we had to dig into the minds of others and I think I still have a hangover from that.


2- Medusa's last post help me formulate this question that has been bouncing around in my head for a while. Thanks Medusa!!

As a femme, I enjoy, love, need the bonding with other femmes. I love talking about what makes each one the femme they are. I like hearing histories and being invited into their lives and understanding what made them the femme they are today. However, I'm not understanding why we as femmes need to completley tear apart the meaning of femme, try to understand and put constraints on what *femme* is, is not, should be, could be...etc. Or Medusa are you talking more about just bonding discussions on a larger scale. Because I understand those. Obviously, I've never had the gift of being able to attend a conferance. And I sure am glad I missed that first one you described. I'm not nice.

It concerns me for a couple reasons if we are trying to label and define *femme.* But that's just me. And I really want to understand how other think about that?

Another note....I do COMPLETLEY agree that in the past, present and future, people have and will, display horrible bigotry towards people that are not *them*. The others I guess I'd call it. I believe that whatever group has been *othered* should stand up and call that bullshit out real quick and in a hurry!!! Actually, I feel that even when not in the *othered* group, if dumb shit behavior is displayed, you (general) should call it out. But I have concerns about how some of this sets up an us-vs-them sorta vibe which to *memememe* can be just as harming.

I'm not going real deep into my thinking because I really want to see what *you* think about my questions. Cause to me, that's WAY more interesting that thought i live with daily.

Or maybe this should be a different thread. Oh well, I just thought I'd through it out here and see.



j

[Medusa]

I think that teasing apart Femme was part of my coming out process but that teasing apart Femme can help us get down to bone of who we are even as we're more settled.
Like, I've been out and identified as Femme for about 15 years.
My Femme looks very different today than it did 15 years ago partly because I've been exposed to other Femmes and partly because I've figured out that the "glittery babygirl" thing didn't *have* to apply to me.

I don't want to put constraints on what Femme is. I want everyone who identifies as Femme to be exactly the Femme they are without all the bullshit from outside.

What I find in my personal life is that I *do* fence Femme. I do dismantle and reclaim Femme in ways that feel empowering to me.
Part of the act of fencing might come across as un-fencing if that makes any sense. I fence (protect it) by reminding the younger Femmes in my life that they don't need to wear certain things, be certain things, they can just be who they are. I protect Femme by turning shit like "Femme needs Butch to exist" away at the door. I protect it by speaking up when I see Femme being used as "dating pool" instead of honored individually.

I also do not always agree...or maybe the better word for me would be 'identify'...with how other people claim Femme. Like, I see Femme as a Queer identity. It's hard for me to see Straight folks partnered with other Straight folks claiming Femme and even harder to try to identify with it. Doesn't mean I try to tell them they can't claim it, just means I don't resonate with them like I do Queer Femmes.
And that's where I remind myself that I don't get to or have to police that.

Redefining Femme, teasing it apart, reclaiming it, etc. can come with a price if we aren't super careful. I've seen conversations about celebrating Femme actually narrow the definition of what Femme is and I don't want that. I want my sisters, and even those who aren't sister but who exist in the same space, to feel honored in whatever form they take. I'd like to look up one day and see that Femme is so expanded and stretched that old femmes, fat femmes, differently-abeld Femmes, Femmes who fuck genders other than Butch, Femmes of Color, Femmes who don't have conventional beauty privilege, and Femmes who feel 'othered' don't have to keep having conversations and convincing people that they are Femme without the caveat. I don't know a way to say that any better right now but it's something akin to exploding our conception of "normal".

[femmsational]

Thank you all for being willing to answer my clumsy questions.

I love all the different thinking processes I'm seeing.

I'm sorry Snow if you feel I've hijacked your thread. Let me know and I'll try to start a different one!!


j

[princessbelle]

I see femme as just a fluidity of inner beauty that resonates who you are and who you want to be.

I see all gender that way.

If a masculine butch stood in front of me or FtM or Trans or any person and said they feel they are femme, or they ID as femme?

More power to them!!!!

There is no "femme detector test" that we walk into and it closes the door and the light goes green or red. It is our own truths.

IMO the one and ONLY thing that is important with IDs is what you, yourself decide. There is no ifs, ands or buts or becauses or rules or guidelines how you dress or who you take to bed, about it at all.

If you are straight and want to ID as femme? Do it. If your vision is that femme's only date lesbians or other femmes or FtMs or whatever...have at it. No one's view or opinion on things will ever negate or transfer my ID. No one has the power to do that. No one ever will.

[julieisafemme]

I agree Belle but it does bug me when straight people say they are femme or queer. I guess I feel that way because my road to claiming queer and femme came with a lot of loss and grief and I feel like I fought to be seen as who and what I am today. I don't quite understand why a straight person would identify tha way except to be even more than an ally? It does make me cranky though!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I agree Belle but it does bug me when straight people say they are femme or queer. I guess I feel that way because my road to claiming queer and femme came with a lot of loss and grief and I feel like I fought to be seen as who and what I am today. I don't quite understand why a straight person would identify tha way except to be even more than an ally? It does make me cranky though!

Know what pisses me off even more.

When I log in here and I see the Femme, Butch, Trans, Zie's, post a picture of a feminine woman and refer to her as Femme or when describing a straight (hetero) woman they see on the street and have a boner for as Femme.

It's a mixture of anger, hurst, angst, and seperation. It's nothing to do with insecurity, jealousy it's all to do with stop giving other's what is MINE and I've worked hard for!

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Know what pisses me off even more.

When I log in here and I see the Femme, Butch, Trans, Zie's, post a picture of a feminine woman and refer to her as Femme or when describing a straight (hetero) woman they see on the street and have a boner for as Femme.

It's a mixture of anger, hurst, angst, and seperation. It's nothing to do with insecurity, jealousy it's all to do with stop giving other's what is MINE and I've worked hard for!

i totally resonate with this post. i don’t think that butches realize, that even when they do this in the spirit of a harmless fantasy, that it causes some of us femmes to feel separated and angry as we have fought to shine in our femme uniqueness.We fight to be seen as FEMME, not a hetero feminine woman. It isn’t about jealousy, it’s about feeling that we belong in this community.

One thing that we have is that butches are attracted to us. If they desire straight (heater) women, we wonder where we really fit in.

If i were to come up with a list of people i am sexually attracted to, not one straight man or woman would come to mind.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I agree Belle but it does bug me when straight people say they are femme or queer. I guess I feel that way because my road to claiming queer and femme came with a lot of loss and grief and I feel like I fought to be seen as who and what I am today. I don't quite understand why a straight person would identify tha way except to be even more than an ally? It does make me cranky though!

I get this i do!!! I believe your thoughts are the majority opinion on that. I don't know why i don't feel that way to be honest. I just feel that anyone (that means anyone) has the right to ID anyway they want to.

It doesn't bother me about straight people doing that either. Maybe i should examine the "why" it doesn't bother me a little more. I guess for one thing i've never ran into that. Most of my friends when i say i am a femme, they don't have a clue what i'm talking about. LOL.

Anyway, good discussion.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I get this i do!!! I believe your thoughts are the majority opinion on that. I don't know why i don't feel that way to be honest. I just feel that anyone (that means anyone) has the right to ID anyway they want to.

It doesn't bother me about straight people doing that either. Maybe i should examine the "why" it doesn't bother me a little more. I guess for one thing i've never ran into that. Most of my friends when i say i am a femme, they don't have a clue what i'm talking about. LOL.

Anyway, good discussion.

It bothers me if I hear a straight woman refer to herself as Femme. For me, Femme is part of my queer identity. There is no place in the world for me, for a straight woman while living her visible life filled with privilege to refer to herself as Femme.

Julie

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I get this i do!!! I believe your thoughts are the majority opinion on that. I don't know why i don't feel that way to be honest. I just feel that anyone (that means anyone) has the right to ID anyway they want to.

It doesn't bother me about straight people doing that either. Maybe i should examine the "why" it doesn't bother me a little more. I guess for one thing i've never ran into that. Most of my friends when i say i am a femme, they don't have a clue what i'm talking about. LOL.

Anyway, good discussion.

Well we live in groovy land so young people here seem to push the boundaries of definitions on any number of things. In some ways I guess it means that the othering of queers is less with young people. But to me it is even more othering to say that there is no distinction between us. I don't feel accepted by that. I feel discounted.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by femmsational

Can I ask two questions???


And please know that I mean NO disrespect, there is absolutely NO judgement, and I admire everybody for doing what they feel is authintic in their life.


1- When I saw Snow's first question. It seemed real simple to me. As evidenced by my response.

My question......how do we go from what *I* feel is a simple straight forward, the world was stupid, some people are still stupid answer, into a discussion of the feminist movement and the power players and et al.?

I know that sometimes I don't get down and dirty with things, but for me, the most simple answer is the most logical solution kinda thing?? Again, there is no judgement. I strictly want to understand the line of thinking. Cause maybe a little part of me feels I should go there too. you know? I really do. When I was in law school we had many courses in which we had to dig into the minds of others and I think I still have a hangover from that.


2- Medusa's last post help me formulate this question that has been bouncing around in my head for a while. Thanks Medusa!!

As a femme, I enjoy, love, need the bonding with other femmes. I love talking about what makes each one the femme they are. I like hearing histories and being invited into their lives and understanding what made them the femme they are today. However, I'm not understanding why we as femmes need to completley tear apart the meaning of femme, try to understand and put constraints on what *femme* is, is not, should be, could be...etc. Or Medusa are you talking more about just bonding discussions on a larger scale. Because I understand those. Obviously, I've never had the gift of being able to attend a conferance. And I sure am glad I missed that first one you described. I'm not nice.

It concerns me for a couple reasons if we are trying to label and define *femme.* But that's just me. And I really want to understand how other think about that?

Another note....I do COMPLETLEY agree that in the past, present and future, people have and will, display horrible bigotry towards people that are not *them*. The others I guess I'd call it. I believe that whatever group has been *othered* should stand up and call that bullshit out real quick and in a hurry!!! Actually, I feel that even when not in the *othered* group, if dumb shit behavior is displayed, you (general) should call it out. But I have concerns about how some of this sets up an us-vs-them sorta vibe which to *memememe* can be just as harming.

I'm not going real deep into my thinking because I really want to see what *you* think about my questions. Cause to me, that's WAY more interesting that thought i live with daily.

Or maybe this should be a different thread. Oh well, I just thought I'd through it out here and see.



j

I wasn't intentionally starting a conversation on Feminism, I knew it would come up because a lot of us are Feminists and we come here because this place was built on Feminist values. Also there was no intent on redefining Femme. I believe Femme's get to do that for themselves because of how Femme is so vast.


The intent I had when it came to this particular thread is and will be to dissect, discuss, tear apart the continuous subject of "The Cleavers" and the comparison of the correct way to be Femme via June Cleaver.

This particular comparison gets brought up over and over in threads and I keep wondering why so therefore the question to all Femme's and how they feel about being compared to "June Cleaver" a straight woman who is being put in a Femme Icon place.


That shit right there drives me fucking bonkers to the point I was be like

$$#@!! because if I compared a butch to some hunky straight guy we all know there would be hell.

I can't say I blame them because butches aren't straight guys, unless they are and like our Gender/Identity/Label it's variant and all over the gender marker spectrum that it's almost ludicrous to compare anything QUEER to anything *straight* (hetero).

Then I go OMGay I am a Latina, so therefore once again my Femme/Gender is disregarded via I can't identify culturally to "The Cleavers"

*deep breath*


ETA

I also spoke and am speaking about Femme from my personal experiences and view, they do not define others and how they are Femme just me