FTM place to vent and talk

[BrutalDaddy]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

In my past I found some of my fears and apprehension and some apprehension my friends felt over my trans status may have caused some angst but for the most part I think all my butch friends and lesbian friends are very supportive and interested in my life here and in everyday. I have never felt like I am in competition with people over my gender and I don't think they have ever felt this way with me.

I'm glad you've got friends who are supportive. Wish I could say same for her and I. Unfortunately we've gotten shitted on quite a bit over the years but it's their issue, not ours.

I still remember our first date. Took her to a local gay club/bar and soon as we walked in the door, you could've heard a pin drop. Also if looks could wither, we'd crumpled to the floor. Lol.

Funny thing is, I've met some butches who were just fine with us until they found out that I was FTM. Then came the stares, the sneers, the eyerolling. Don't even think it's a competition thing at all with them because I'm very content with who I am and also very content with who they are and how they identify. It's literally an issue of being "traitors" because I want to be a man (even though it's not a "want" but something that just is) which is the easier, softer way for them. No matter the fact that it's the harder path for me to take since now I have to deal judgement from society AND the rainbow.

[DMW]

Originally Posted by BrutalDyke

I'm glad you've got friends who are supportive. Wish I could say same for her and I. Unfortunately we've gotten shitted on quite a bit over the years but it's their issue, not ours.

I still remember our first date. Took her to a local gay club/bar and soon as we walked in the door, you could've heard a pin drop. Also if looks could wither, we'd crumpled to the floor. Lol.

Funny thing is, I've met some butches who were just fine with us until they found out that I was FTM. Then came the stares, the sneers, the eyerolling. Don't even think it's a competition thing at all with them because I'm very content with who I am and also very content with who they are and how they identify. It's literally an issue of being "traitors" because I want to be a man (even though it's not a "want" but something that just is) which is the easier, softer way for them. No matter the fact that it's the harder path for me to take since now I have to deal judgement from society AND the rainbow.

Brute, damn it is nice to read your post and let you speak for me. My head
is still pounding...whiney dude today. I think it is so important to put myself in another persons' shoes...emotionally...to really try and understand what could be going on inside their heads. And listen...if they will talk about it. I can understand the "traitor" feeling ...why the people in the rainbow would feel this way. I am actually struggling right now cause i find myself going back and forth now that i have come into this site...and not just because of the site...i have always struggled with this..."damn the straight society and i shall not be silent" and then the idea of
ugh...just let me live ok. That is really my issue. I have struggled with what i feel is a need to be OUT as a transman in order to LIVE as a transman.

As far as your invisible femme...i was in more than one relationship where
the poor femmes always kinda get the shaft. The best thing i could do for her was to tell her..."look, i respect and like so and so. So, i don't mind that
you come out to her if you need someone to talk to about US with a friend.
I think that is so important. And it really puts them at ease. I only asked of her...to let me OK who i would allow to know about me and US.

And i really need to learn how to clean up the format of my posts...

[BrutalDaddy]

Originally Posted by DMW

Brute, damn it is nice to read your post and let you speak for me. My head
is still pounding...whiney dude today. I think it is so important to put myself in another persons' shoes...emotionally...to really try and understand what could be going on inside their heads. And listen...if they will talk about it. I can understand the "traitor" feeling ...why the people in the rainbow would feel this way. I am actually struggling right now cause i find myself going back and forth now that i have come into this site...and not just because of the site...i have always struggled with this..."damn the straight society and i shall not be silent" and then the idea of
ugh...just let me live ok. That is really my issue. I have struggled with what i feel is a need to be OUT as a transman in order to LIVE as a transman.

As far as your invisible femme...i was in more than one relationship where
the poor femmes always kinda get the shaft. The best thing i could do for her was to tell her...look...i respect and like so and so..So, i don't mind that
you come out to her if you need someone to talk to about US with a friend.
I think that is so important. I only asked of her...to let me OK who i would allow to know about me and US.

Wow. Love it when someone takes the jumbled up thoughts in my head and lay them out clearly so I can do the same in my own mind. I struggle with that too, DMW. The desire to be seen as queer, kinda like my own "fuck you" to society, and the desire to be seen fully as a male. Sometimes I wonder can I have my cake and eat it too? I have struggled with the traitor thing because my journey, my past is not something I ever want to let go of or forget because it is just an intricate part of me. Being a part of this community/rainbow is something I hold dear to my heart because I have much, much stronger connection with it then I do with the straight world.

I'm lucky in the sense that Julie gets me and the situation. I do feel bad that because I am FTM, there will always be shit thrown from both sides of the aisle and she'll be stuck in the middle of it. But that is her choice so feeling bad about it is on me, not her. She knows the ramifications of what being with a FTM will be and yet because of her strong sense of self and her desire for me to be completely okay with myself, she'll take the shit throwing. I can only imagine how much more invisible being with a FTM makes her, especially when I am able to fully transition. Thing is being with me isn't what makes her femme. It's just who she is. Unfortunately some folks will never see it that way.

[weatherboi]

I have experienced certain friends viewing me as a traitor. People are gonna either work it out in themselves or not I guess. Mostly my supportive people are here and then I have a few constants that love me no matterwhat. I am lucky when I look at it that way. Gay clubs can be so rough sometimes and can feel very unwelcoming to people that don't don a bar stool night after night. I am sorry ya'll had to deal with that.

Originally Posted by BrutalDyke

I'm glad you've got friends who are supportive. Wish I could say same for her and I. Unfortunately we've gotten shitted on quite a bit over the years but it's their issue, not ours.

I still remember our first date. Took her to a local gay club/bar and soon as we walked in the door, you could've heard a pin drop. Also if looks could wither, we'd crumpled to the floor. Lol.

Funny thing is, I've met some butches who were just fine with us until they found out that I was FTM. Then came the stares, the sneers, the eyerolling. Don't even think it's a competition thing at all with them because I'm very content with who I am and also very content with who they are and how they identify. It's literally an issue of being "traitors" because I want to be a man (even though it's not a "want" but something that just is) which is the easier, softer way for them. No matter the fact that it's the harder path for me to take since now I have to deal judgement from society AND the rainbow.

[BrutalDaddy]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I have experienced certain friends viewing me as a traitor. People are gonna either work it out in themselves or not I guess. Mostly my supportive people are here and then I have a few constants that love me no matterwhat. I am lucky when I look at it that way. Gay clubs can be so rough sometimes and can feel very unwelcoming to people that don't don a bar stool night after night. I am sorry ya'll had to deal with that.

Yea, I've figured out over the years how tough it is going into a gay club as a brand new face. In a sense I can understand the initial mistrust because we do have to be so very careful with who we allow in so as not to get hurt or fucked with. Yet on the flip side of the coin, so many folks just coming out feel like they're twisting in the wind and just want to feel like they belong somewhere.

Thank you for the condolence. It sucks but it's life as well. Again, huge reason I am so glad this site is here for us. Kinda like our own Cheers, where everybody knows our name. Lol.

Just Don't Call Me Norm,
Brute.

[Julien]

I want to address this traitor issue. This is one of the reasons I'm hesitant to out myself with this new group of people (MCC), because I do not know what their response might be. However, I think that it might have to do with me in general and some misconception I may have. I also see the response some of you have gone through, so I know this is out there. It seems that life is tough enough for those of us who are trans than to have be judged by our own LGB community. I would also like to say that I find people on this site more welcoming and accepting of us, which is why I come here.

[DMW]

Julien, i have found that whether someone is gay or straight, how they treat me, really isn't the issue for me. For me it is about being who i am. I understand the fear...but, i try not to let that rule how i live or the choices that i make based on what i need. I read your post and it worries me for you actually. No matter where i am ...(gay or straight world)... i am trans and base my decisions on when and where and to whom i should "out "myself to....dependent on the given situation.

What is the MCC group?

I hope you come back soon because i may have to leave without hearing your answer and then you will have to wait for a reply from me.

Brute, love what you shared.

I gotta check out again. Have a good night all.

[Julien]

Originally Posted by DMW

Julien, i have found that whether someone is gay or straight, how they treat me, really isn't the issue for me. For me it is about being who i am. I understand the fear...but, i try not to let that rule how i live or the choices that i make based on what i need. I read your post and it worries me for you actually. No matter where i am ...(gay or straight world)... i am trans and base my decisions on when and where and to whom i should "out "myself to....dependent on the given situation.

What is the MCC group?

I hope you come back soon because i may have to leave without hearing your answer and then you will have to wait for a reply from me.

Brute, love what you shared.

I gotta check out again. Have a good night all.

Thanks for responding to my post and I appreciate your concern for me. I should have been more clear the MCC is the Metropolitan Community Church, for lack of a better phrase a LGBT church. While I'm not a big church goer I decided to attend to meet people within the community. It has worked, I'm just hesitant with how much I share with people. Let me say I am fine with myself in general aside for being inbetween (as I say). I'm am out to key members of my family and have the full support of them for which I am grateful. Again I appreciate your concern and would be happy to discuss this with you further on another day.

[DMW]

Hey, Julien, my apologies...i didn't get that when i first read your previous thread. I get the idea. I will have to think on it more and then respond later when i have time. You are in a bit of a pinch for sure. Have faith and hang in there. I hope someone new comes along to the group. If not, you have this place...and that is good.

[Hominid]

Julien -

I just wanted to say that the stuff I did run up against was very subtle, and not in a community or group. I guess what I mean is that if you out yourself in the MCC, I am positive you will actually find people who gravitate *towards* you - being genuine almost always brings people closer, if in a safe environment. Yes, others may distance themselves a bit, but I think you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I say, go for it.

Originally Posted by Julien

I want to address this traitor issue. This is one of the reasons I'm hesitant to out myself with this new group of people (MCC), because I do not know what their response might be. However, I think that it might have to do with me in general and some misconception I may have. I also see the response some of you have gone through, so I know this is out there. It seems that life is tough enough for those of us who are trans than to have be judged by our own LGB community. I would also like to say that I find people on this site more welcoming and accepting of us, which is why I come here.

[Darbonaire]

I know how this shit feels from the lesbian community...not ALL of the community but a large part of it...in my experience anyway.

I don't give a rat's ass how someone identifies....that's their deal....but, because I aligned my body with my heart & soul, does NOT mean I am a traitor to the lesbian community...I never WAS a lesbian...THEY perceived me that way so that's on them. Yep, we've all heard the...."Well, if you want to be a guy....." shit. The butches that don't get it the feminists that don't get it. I think it's GREAT that they are comfortabe being masculine in their female bodies....excellent...for them. It was NOT for me & never has been.

The LBGT community is discriminated against by society & why the fu*k there's such "in-fighting" amongst these groups I've never understood. People are afraid of what they don't understand. I have often wondered if some of the shit I've heard from masculine butches isn't envy in a way. <Figuring I may get a LOT of shit over that statement...lol> It's just something I've wondered is all.....not something I believe to be true....at least not all the time.

Anyway, somewhere out there is another mate for me who will encompass ALL the wonderful qualities of my ex-wife, & be even more of a match for me. When I'm ready.......

[weatherboi]

Woah woah woah!!!

wtf??? I get we all have some pretty hard experiences in AND out of our own community and it needs to be talked about, but all the lesbian and butch bashing in this thread is gonna get moderated and then we will have no space to talk things out. Plus I really like my community members and respect them for their journey which I can only imagine is just as challenging as any one of ours. I am sure it isn't easy walking in this world as a butch person either so let's be bigger than we already are and figure out a way to talk about things without bashing our community members here or elsewhere.

I am not sure why you would think butches would be envious of us. I can't imagine any person wanting to walk in our shoes for all we have to go through. I think it would be important to point out that if somebody says to anyone of us "well if you wanna be a man" that this person is coming from an ignorant space and not a butch or lesbian space.

Originally Posted by Darbonaire

I know how this shit feels from the lesbian community...not ALL of the community but a large part of it...in my experience anyway.

I don't give a rat's ass how someone identifies....that's their deal....but, because I aligned my body with my heart & soul, does NOT mean I am a traitor to the lesbian community...I never WAS a lesbian...THEY perceived me that way so that's on them. Yep, we've all heard the...."Well, if you want to be a guy....." shit. The butches that don't get it the feminists that don't get it. I think it's GREAT that they are comfortabe being masculine in their female bodies....excellent...for them. It was NOT for me & never has been.

The LBGT community is discriminated against by society & why the fu*k there's such "in-fighting" amongst these groups I've never understood. People are afraid of what they don't understand. I have often wondered if some of the shit I've heard from masculine butches isn't envy in a way. <Figuring I may get a LOT of shit over that statement...lol> It's just something I've wondered is all.....not something I believe to be true....at least not all the time.

Anyway, somewhere out there is another mate for me who will encompass ALL the wonderful qualities of my ex-wife, & be even more of a match for me. When I'm ready.......

[Hominid]

I'm not sure *I* see "lesbian and butch bashing" - at least up to this post; every reference has been qualified with "some" and the like. It is part of many of our experiences that we are ostracized, sometimes outright, sometimes subtly. It needs to be okay for us to talk about; I hate to keep using the same analogy, but there are many threads that involve how femmes are invisible or ostracized often in the community - I don't see this as any different.

I also want to compliment this site - it is not the "community" I speak of.
I really don't want to see this descend into defensive garbage. We are ALL discriminated against by EVERY type of person often. Here, we are talking about the ftm experience. It isn't exclusive to anyone else's pain, it's just topical and very personal. Saying "butches and lesbians seem to have more of a problem with me" is NOT butch and lesbian bashing - it is a statement of fact for that person.

However, I really am glad one of us made this comment - we need to be responsible and careful and self-police.

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Woah woah woah!!!

wtf??? I get we all have some pretty hard experiences in AND out of our own community and it needs to be talked about, but all the lesbian and butch bashing in this thread is gonna get moderated and then we will have no space to talk things out..

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Hominid

I'm not sure *I* see "lesbian and butch bashing" - at least up to this post; every reference has been qualified with "some" and the like. It is part of many of our experiences that we are ostracized, sometimes outright, sometimes subtly. It needs to be okay for us to talk about; I hate to keep using the same analogy, but there are many threads that involve how femmes are invisible or ostracized often in the community - I don't see this as any different.

I also want to compliment this site - it is not the "community" I speak of.
I really don't want to see this descend into defensive garbage. We are ALL discriminated against by EVERY type of person often. Here, we are talking about the ftm experience. It isn't exclusive to anyone else's pain, it's just topical and very personal. Saying "butches and lesbians seem to have more of a problem with me" is NOT butch and lesbian bashing - it is a statement of fact for that person.

However, I really am glad one of us made this comment - we need to be responsible and careful and self-police.

We do need to self-police. We need to recognize the experiences but rather than navel gaze them to death figure out how to prevent those same experiences from happening to those starting their experience. Not all FTMs come from a lesbian/F&B background. This community has been a supporter of trans individuals and even banned one of the most known transphobic individuals out there.

But I find that kind of person is rarer in this community than common. It sucks that this has happened to some of us (I had my share but not enough to be so vehement about it). I cannot change those individuals but I can be part of this community and let them see me for the man I am rather than what might be assumed about me.

Originally Posted by Greyson

I agree with Linus and weatherboi about context. Most of the guys who have been here awhile know I I.D. as Transmasculine. Being a life long Butch was very much a part of my journey getting to this point in my gender identity.

For me, once I started the process of transitioning I could no longer ignore that little voice in me that kept asking "Why?" I never identified as a "Woman Identified Butch." In my old thinking a Butch was clearly not a woman in the same sense as Femmes and other women.

I have been a member of the Butch-Femme sites for 12 or 13 years now. I have learned that not all Butches had the same experience or thinking that I did. That also is the same for Transmen. I have been legally a male for a little over three years now and my gender identity is not over.

Back to the "Why" of this. In finally deciding to "transition" for me I had to explore if there was self internalized misoginy involved in my decision. Honestly I did not think there was. I tried to take a hard and focused look as to what growing up in my country has taught me. What is the media, books, movies, "values," traditions, law, policy, religion saying now and historically about women? IMO it is saying, overall that women are meant to be in service to the greater good, sacrafice self if necessary, and raise families. I think women overall through out history were relegated to very pre-defined lives.

What I ultimately had to ask myself is how much of this stuff did I believe on some level? How did my actions, thoughts, biases, and words align with what I thought I believed?

Agreed on this. It's one of the reasons I started a thread on the idea about whether transman who transition are self-misogynistic. I know in some way I am in that I dislike my personal woman bits but that's my dysphoria/GID speaking rather than a hatred of women. Like you, I had to question whether there was more to it than just that. I refuse to be like cis-men and do not want to be compared to them. I am my own man and so much more than that.

Originally Posted by Darbonaire

Let me understand this cause I am NOT out to hurt anyone's feelings or cast aspersions....<walking on eggshells is SO much fun>....

Thing is, I don't believe we need to walk on egg shells. I've said it already and I'll say it again. Because this thread was "born" out of another discussion that was already hugely heated it's being watched like a hawk more so. In fact, IMO, there is a higher expectation on transmen than others because of what some would believe our experience to be (never mind that we all have very differing backgrounds from that of a living a straight female life to those living lesbian and those living femme).

It's unfortunate that transmen do face some of this kind of discrimination or animosity from other parts of the LGBTQ community (gay transmen that I know have commented how the gay community doesn't quite accept them either and neither do the straight men they may have dated in the past). But I'd like to believe that in this community of people the majority are supportive (we have over 4,000 and I've probably interacted with about 600 of that so I can't comment either way for the remaining but I'd like to believe they are just as supportive).

So rather than dwell on those who won't support us or what out right hate us, I'd rather hang out and get to know those will support us and like us. Will we ever be able to stop anyone from not liking us because we're transmen? No. There will always be those that dislike us because of who are. But I always try to make sure that it's not because of what I personally do or say (that doesn't mean toeing some line or walking on eggshells -- it just means being aware of the fact that there is more to the world than just me).


To that end, one of my biggest challenges is being seen as a man and not in the same light as a cis-gendered man. I likely don't have the same experience in my life as many cis-gendered men do. And the way people treated me in my female life before effected that experience. I often wonder how different I would be had I started my transition when I was in my 20s compared to doing it now in my early 40s. Already I feel like I've lived two lives, almost like a reincarnation (maybe that's what is meant by reincarnation).

[weatherboi]

It is totally not cool to refer to butches as envious when it is only a guess about a group of peoples character. It is divisive at best with an air of insecurity on the part of the accuser. Self inflicted. Qualifiers don't give us a pass to say whatever we want to. If you read back to that post Darbonaire made, he was merely taking a side swiping guess about the envy. Shit stirring verbiage and he even admitted to it. I think he even insinuated that he didn't care. All this stuff is way overkill to describe an experience.

I am all for talking about trans invisibility. I feel a certain responsibility to remain visible within my community and out amoungst the masses. Here in Jacksonville just like everywhere else we are a minority within a minority. I watched the LGB part of our community use gender expression and identity as the bargaining chip to try and gain rights, so they took us out of the original bill under the list of people protected. 2012-296 was the bill and tried to push it forward.
I will never forget the day I read the addendum to the original bill. 2 reasons it felt shitty for me and silencing resulting in my own feelings of invisibility. The first was my clear lack of investment and support for my own rights. Secondly was how very clear to me that a certain aspect of my community that was willing to bargain with my rights because of my lack of involvement and their lack of education when advocating for me as an organization. The attitude was at all costs, some is better than nothing, and that they (HRC) would build on it.

I also experience trans invisibility within my own subculture of trans. I have guys that refer to me as butch because of their own shit. Recently we hosted a small dinner party and one of the transmen that attended kept referring to me as a butch. The dinner requires protocols so I had to navigate a conversation around antiquated beliefs revolved around creating hierarchy within the trans community. It worked for me in that situation. In other situations with less restrictions I tend to grab that kind of thinking and break it down to roadkill. This kind of internal transphobia pisses me off more than any other discriminatory experience I have been privy to. I don't like discourse from within but I am not afraid of confronting it and examining it. IMO it is the first place we should be starting.

Originally Posted by Hominid

I'm not sure *I* see "lesbian and butch bashing" - at least up to this post; every reference has been qualified with "some" and the like. It is part of many of our experiences that we are ostracized, sometimes outright, sometimes subtly. It needs to be okay for us to talk about; I hate to keep using the same analogy, but there are many threads that involve how femmes are invisible or ostracized often in the community - I don't see this as any different.

I also want to compliment this site - it is not the "community" I speak of.
I really don't want to see this descend into defensive garbage. We are ALL discriminated against by EVERY type of person often. Here, we are talking about the ftm experience. It isn't exclusive to anyone else's pain, it's just topical and very personal. Saying "butches and lesbians seem to have more of a problem with me" is NOT butch and lesbian bashing - it is a statement of fact for that person.

However, I really am glad one of us made this comment - we need to be responsible and careful and self-police.

[Hominid]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

It is totally not cool to refer to butches as envious when it is only a guess about a group of peoples character. It is divisive at best with an air of insecurity on the part of the accuser. Self inflicted. Qualifiers don't give us a pass to say whatever we want to. If you read back to that post Darbonaire made, he was merely taking a side swiping guess about the envy. Shit stirring verbiage and he even admitted to it. I think he even insinuated that he didn't care. All this stuff is way overkill to describe an experience.
.

It IS cool if it's how it seems, and if the person posting says that's how it seems to him with *some* butches - which is, I believe the case. It's perfectly legitimate to discuss whether that perception is correct.

In MY case, and MY case alone, the four butches I have known well enough to process with have TOLD me that PART of their issue was jealousy - and through further processing of the kind discussed a little earlier (reflecting on whether the desire to transition was some form of misogyny) they came to a different place than I did. I was told by these friends that my transitioning forced them to consider that they could be male if they wanted, and part of that process for them was feeling that it would be too difficult, too hard to deal with in their lives, and this made them angry and jealous - for a period of time. Of course, it was one small part of their own process, but it did exist, and important for us to discuss because it came between us. I do NOT feel that all butches go through this or feel this way - nor do I even have an opinion on how many might - I only know it CAN be so - and is usually transient.

That said, there are times when PARTS of me hearken for the simpler days of being a young, hot butch and be admired by the community.

[Greyson]

Hominid, I believe you. These sort of things can and do happen to many of us. For me, I internalized so much of this sort of thing. It hurt deeply and it made me much more angry, isolated emotionally, judgmental and fearful. Now where do go with all of this stuff trapped internally? The "others" that hurt me went on and lived their lives. (BTW, I am not talking about exes. I am talking about the isms.) I did a lot of chest thumping like Brutal because I was not sure of myself.

I am not saying this is part of your character, how you tick. I am saying some of us are and some us of may be. Again, without even realizing it.

Originally Posted by Hominid

It IS cool if it's how it seems, and if the person posting says that's how it seems to him with *some* butches - which is, I believe the case. It's perfectly legitimate to discuss whether that perception is correct.

In MY case, and MY case alone, the four butches I have known well enough to process with have TOLD me that PART of their issue was jealousy - and through further processing of the kind discussed a little earlier (reflecting on whether the desire to transition was some form of misogyny) they came to a different place than I did. I was told by these friends that my transitioning forced them to consider that they could be male if they wanted, and part of that process for them was feeling that it would be too difficult, too hard to deal with in their lives, and this made them angry and jealous - for a period of time. Of course, it was one small part of their own process, but it did exist, and important for us to discuss because it came between us. I do NOT feel that all butches go through this or feel this way - nor do I even have an opinion on how many might - I only know it CAN be so - and is usually transient.

That said, there are times when PARTS of me hearken for the simpler days of being a young, hot butch and be admired by the community.

[DMW]

Julien, Hominid's last post quotes the post of yours that i was refering to in my last post. Keep that straight. Lol...and my last post came up just as your last post did. I think what Hominid said is some good advice. I believe that also. There will be someone in that group that is chill..and who knows...there may be new members to come. In my experience, i kinda pick and choose who i will open up to. But, sometimes that takes more time and patience. It can be annoying and exhausting. I am also, way hesitant with what i share with people, myself. It sounds like it is a new setting...I think staying positive and showing up to the meetings regularly is a good start.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Darbonaire

I know how this shit feels from the lesbian community...not ALL of the community but a large part of it...in my experience anyway.

I don't give a rat's ass how someone identifies....that's their deal....but, because I aligned my body with my heart & soul, does NOT mean I am a traitor to the lesbian community...I never WAS a lesbian...THEY perceived me that way so that's on them. Yep, we've all heard the...."Well, if you want to be a guy....." shit. The butches that don't get it the feminists that don't get it. I think it's GREAT that they are comfortabe being masculine in their female bodies....excellent...for them. It was NOT for me & never has been.

The LBGT community is discriminated against by society & why the fu*k there's such "in-fighting" amongst these groups I've never understood. People are afraid of what they don't understand. I have often wondered if some of the shit I've heard from masculine butches isn't envy in a way. <Figuring I may get a LOT of shit over that statement...lol> It's just something I've wondered is all.....not something I believe to be true....at least not all the time.

Anyway, somewhere out there is another mate for me who will encompass ALL the wonderful qualities of my ex-wife, & be even more of a match for me. When I'm ready.......

I have to agree with weatherboi on this one. Regardless of one's experience we cannot paint that brush against the whole of a group (largely because there is no way we've met everyone). That's no different than someone assuming we're all assholes because of one or more FTMs acting like assholes. Guilt by association is the wrong attitude, IMO, to take towards this. Rather than rant about what happened and do a "who is me, how horrible things were", why not rise above it and go beyond?

I think we sometimes forget the fine line that we have when discussing experiences versus making it sound like hatred or an -ism. By virtue of being male, some of how we describe our experience may come out as an -ism (whether intentional or not).

I think we have to speak entirely for ourselves and not for what others may or may not feel (that is, speak from the *I* place and not "them", "they", etc.). I cannot speak for nor would I attempt to speak for those who support me or are against me. Have I felt that kind of hatred? Yes. There are some who are like that. Is it the majority of who exists out there? No. Because I haven't met them all, only a small subset. But I wouldn't assume that everyone I've met is part of that subset either until they show me they are.

Your experience is important, Dabonaire. It has added to who you are but how we express that experience can either paint a whole group one way or another.

[Linus]

And just so that people realize this: the creation of this thread has made it one of the most watched thread by not just FTMs but others. This isn't a private thread.

Remember that when posting.