FTM place to vent and talk

Hominid · 10-29-2012, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weatherboi

It is totally not cool to refer to butches as envious when it is only a guess about a group of peoples character. It is divisive at best with an air of insecurity on the part of the accuser. Self inflicted. Qualifiers don't give us a pass to say whatever we want to. If you read back to that post Darbonaire made, he was merely taking a side swiping guess about the envy. Shit stirring verbiage and he even admitted to it. I think he even insinuated that he didn't care. All this stuff is way overkill to describe an experience.
.

It IS cool if it's how it seems, and if the person posting says that's how it seems to him with *some* butches - which is, I believe the case. It's perfectly legitimate to discuss whether that perception is correct.

In MY case, and MY case alone, the four butches I have known well enough to process with have TOLD me that PART of their issue was jealousy - and through further processing of the kind discussed a little earlier (reflecting on whether the desire to transition was some form of misogyny) they came to a different place than I did. I was told by these friends that my transitioning forced them to consider that they could be male if they wanted, and part of that process for them was feeling that it would be too difficult, too hard to deal with in their lives, and this made them angry and jealous - for a period of time. Of course, it was one small part of their own process, but it did exist, and important for us to discuss because it came between us. I do NOT feel that all butches go through this or feel this way - nor do I even have an opinion on how many might - I only know it CAN be so - and is usually transient.

That said, there are times when PARTS of me hearken for the simpler days of being a young, hot butch and be admired by the community.

Greyson · 10-29-2012, 06:40 PM

Hominid, I believe you. These sort of things can and do happen to many of us. For me, I internalized so much of this sort of thing. It hurt deeply and it made me much more angry, isolated emotionally, judgmental and fearful. Now where do go with all of this stuff trapped internally? The "others" that hurt me went on and lived their lives. (BTW, I am not talking about exes. I am talking about the isms.) I did a lot of chest thumping like Brutal because I was not sure of myself.

I am not saying this is part of your character, how you tick. I am saying some of us are and some us of may be. Again, without even realizing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hominid

It IS cool if it's how it seems, and if the person posting says that's how it seems to him with *some* butches - which is, I believe the case. It's perfectly legitimate to discuss whether that perception is correct.

In MY case, and MY case alone, the four butches I have known well enough to process with have TOLD me that PART of their issue was jealousy - and through further processing of the kind discussed a little earlier (reflecting on whether the desire to transition was some form of misogyny) they came to a different place than I did. I was told by these friends that my transitioning forced them to consider that they could be male if they wanted, and part of that process for them was feeling that it would be too difficult, too hard to deal with in their lives, and this made them angry and jealous - for a period of time. Of course, it was one small part of their own process, but it did exist, and important for us to discuss because it came between us. I do NOT feel that all butches go through this or feel this way - nor do I even have an opinion on how many might - I only know it CAN be so - and is usually transient.

That said, there are times when PARTS of me hearken for the simpler days of being a young, hot butch and be admired by the community.

Hominid · 10-29-2012, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyson

Hominid, I believe you. These sort of things can and do happen to many of us. For me, I internalized so much of this sort of thing. It hurt deeply and it made me much more angry, isolated emotionally, judgmental and fearful. Now where do go with all of this stuff trapped internally? The "others" that hurt me went on and lived their lives. (BTW, I am not talking about exes. I am talking about the isms.) I did a lot of chest thumping like Brutal because I was not sure of myself.

I am not saying this is part of your character, how you tick. I am saying some of us are and some us of may be. Again, without even realizing it.

I'm sorry Greyson - I completely lost you ... chalk it up to the hurricane? I do not feel offended at all. I value open communication and what people INTEND more than anything at all. Do you mind sharing what sort of thing you internalized? And what "this" you are not saying is part of my character?
I feel like I'm missing something you are trying to communicate that is very important -

Greyson · 10-29-2012, 08:48 PM

Hi Hominid. Sorry I have really been burning up the keyboard today and maybe I am just feeling too much to be articulate. What I am trying to say is I believe you that there were butch pals that felt jealous. Not all butches are Trans but most butches, I think have been forced to ponder gender. Most butches are gender outlaws. We/they do not fit the "norm."

So, butches, FTMs, others all of us can say and do hurtful things to our own community. Then, how does that make you feel? Do you feel hurt? Does your hurt turn into anger? Can you let it roll off your back or does it stick in you somewhere? It stuck for me, for years. What I have learned is that my hurt, fear festered. It did not stop the lives of the people who judged me, treated me with disregard. They moved on. I was stuck then I felt even more isolated and angry. This did not serve me.The one I was hurting and frustrating the most was myself. Sometimes I overcompensated in ways that gave credence to negative stereotypes.

My question, have you ever had similar feelings and responses? I am not asking you this in an acusatory way. My hope is that all of us participating in this thread can move forward, find some affirmation for who we are, and find some understanding for those who may not always agree with us, collectively.

Clear as mud. I know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hominid

I'm sorry Greyson - I completely lost you ... chalk it up to the hurricane? I do not feel offended at all. I value open communication and what people INTEND more than anything at all. Do you mind sharing what sort of thing you internalized? And what "this" you are not saying is part of my character?
I feel like I'm missing something you are trying to communicate that is very important -

Hominid · 10-29-2012, 09:39 PM

Greyson -

That was very clear, thank you. And please, don't walk on eggshells with me. Of course others are reading, but you owe ME no explanations or apologies.

Ah, I see now. I felt hurt and humiliated - like the entire town was judging me - for about six months. It was hard at work, my closest friend and I didn't communicate much. I attribute that as much to appearing gender-neutral, being extremely self-conscious and feeling that everyone was talking about me (which they most likely were). I was scared for my kids and nervous around my neighbors. I felt like a freak to straight people and a source of shame and judgment to lesbians.

I worked a lot, which was equally hard, patients would ask other staff after I left the room whether I was male or female. But I got more support there than elsewhere. Sometime, somehow - I saw "me" in the mirror, and my validation came from strangers taking me for who I was; not some complex statement on what gender and sexuality means - and I was really aware of straight people who knew, or who found out, immediately thinking about my genitals.

Now, with time - and this is all in retrospect obviously, I think it has helped a lot that the scales have tipped. More people don't know than do. With those I know know, it is rarely a topic. I keep pictures up of me pre-transition - not lots, but I'm not taking down a meaningful picture. Besides, I was cute. I have pictures of my graduation with my late father, my mom's favorite picture of me as a little girl, and pictures of me with my daughter when she was born.

I guess that's way off topic. But .. in answer to your question, I didn't carry much anger. I had frustration with my closest friend. I felt a lot of shame which was corrected when the transition was "complete" for me. However, I didn't have a large community either. I was married with two small kids - the bulk of my social life was soccer games. I left it to my then-wife to tell people, which now I realize was a mistake that retarded my own ability to deal with having done it. Anyway, being buried in a family at the time meant I didn't have to move about in the world alone, I had the roles of father and husband to insulate me, so I was very fortunate.

Thank you for clarifying - I felt like I missed a post or something!

10-29-2012, 09:39 PM	#5
Hominid Member How Do You Identify?: Male with interesting historical perspective Relationship Status: Taking Applications Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: In perpetual Wonder. And Western Mass. Posts: 254 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 417 Thanked 753 Times in 187 Posts Rep Power: 11507408	Greyson - That was very clear, thank you. And please, don't walk on eggshells with me. Of course others are reading, but you owe ME no explanations or apologies. Ah, I see now. I felt hurt and humiliated - like the entire town was judging me - for about six months. It was hard at work, my closest friend and I didn't communicate much. I attribute that as much to appearing gender-neutral, being extremely self-conscious and feeling that everyone was talking about me (which they most likely were). I was scared for my kids and nervous around my neighbors. I felt like a freak to straight people and a source of shame and judgment to lesbians. I worked a lot, which was equally hard, patients would ask other staff after I left the room whether I was male or female. But I got more support there than elsewhere. Sometime, somehow - I saw "me" in the mirror, and my validation came from strangers taking me for who I was; not some complex statement on what gender and sexuality means - and I was really aware of straight people who knew, or who found out, immediately thinking about my genitals. Now, with time - and this is all in retrospect obviously, I think it has helped a lot that the scales have tipped. More people don't know than do. With those I know know, it is rarely a topic. I keep pictures up of me pre-transition - not lots, but I'm not taking down a meaningful picture. Besides, I was cute. I have pictures of my graduation with my late father, my mom's favorite picture of me as a little girl, and pictures of me with my daughter when she was born. I guess that's way off topic. But .. in answer to your question, I didn't carry much anger. I had frustration with my closest friend. I felt a lot of shame which was corrected when the transition was "complete" for me. However, I didn't have a large community either. I was married with two small kids - the bulk of my social life was soccer games. I left it to my then-wife to tell people, which now I realize was a mistake that retarded my own ability to deal with having done it. Anyway, being buried in a family at the time meant I didn't have to move about in the world alone, I had the roles of father and husband to insulate me, so I was very fortunate. Thank you for clarifying - I felt like I missed a post or something!