June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Sachita

It's very unfair but on the flip side is that women CAN do it all.

Yes, but at what cost?

I'm 50, and was raised in that whole 70's "you can do anything" era. What we ended up with was not anything....but everything. We kept the responsibility for house and children, and gained the responsibility for working and bringing in an income.

It may not be a popular opinion, but I have a certain level of anger at the whole feminist movement....because it got us halfway and left us stranded in a place that is better for some women for sure....but a hell of a lot worse for others. Now we have time limits on public assistance, even for women with small children, because we insist that they work in order to get help. I'm not sure that's the best thing.

People will say we are better at enforcing support on deadbeat dads now...and maybe we are. After all, my own father never paid a nickel and walked away. But, having just been dealing with the Child Support Enforcement office for all of this year and recieving nothing....I would call bullshit on that.

My son was in childcare from the age of 6 weeks....too young for a freaking puppy to leave its mother, because I HAD to work. If I have one huge, overwhelming thing I feel guilt and sadness over...it's that. I never had the chance to simply stay home and be a mother, in part because I managed to reproduce with an idiot, but also in part because society as a whole decided that it was better for me to work than to simply be a mom.

So, yeah, we can do it all. I have done it all. I've been a single mom, worked my whole life, always been the primary breadwinner, always been the housekeeper and cook, put myself though college.....so, yay me. I am fucking exhausted.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Yes, but at what cost?



It may not be a popular opinion, but I have a certain level of anger at the whole feminist movement....because it got us halfway and left us stranded in a place that is better for some women for sure....but a hell of a lot worse for others.

i am SO agreeing with this!!!

[easygoingfemme]

There are so many sides to that, and I can see and understand them all.
Having been a single parent, and then a partnered parent - partnered to someone who I did not share parenting responsibilities with- and then a single mom again, I have to say that the biggest part for me is that I have a choice.

When my daughter was an infant I was dating a woman who wanted me to move in with her, she wanted to support us, put us on her health insurance, the full picture. It wasn't in an oppressive way for her, she just wanted family, wanted to take care of us. I didn't want that. She was awesome and I was crazy about her, but I didn't want to be dependent on her, no matter how much easier my life would have been if I had gone with it. Around that same time we were talking with friends and they were feeling badly for me because I was doing it all, working, taking care of a baby, etc. However, I couldn't tell them enough that I was so thankful that I had a choice. I was also able to put extreme emphasis on creative a life where I could take my daughter to work with me and avoid daycare until she was much older.

The evolution may have brought us to a point where work/self support is not an option for single parents, and I hate how social services works with mothers, especially new mothers, and especially when newborns are in daycare and mother's hearts are being torn apart over it. I hate all of that.

But the flip side to is it, is that without the ability to go out and earn a living, women would be forced to remain in unhealthy, abusive, and unfulfilled relationships because they most often wouldn't have another way to support themselves. That's not a power dynamic I'd ever want back and it's not a home I'd want to raise a child in.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by easygoingfemme

But the flip side to is it, is that without the ability to go out and earn a living, women would be forced to remain in unhealthy, abusive, and unfulfilled relationships because they most often wouldn't have another way to support themselves. That's not a power dynamic I'd ever want back and it's not a home I'd want to raise a child in.

This is what i am talking about too. NO CHOICE. When my sister told my
Mamere (grandmother) that she was getting a divorce my Mamere replied (in a hushed voice) that she wished divorce was an option in her day. Made me sad. That woman had a hard life at the hands of my Papere and what was expected of her, because she simply did not have a choice. No options. Women were evil if they even spoke about divorcing, even with an abusive asshole. It was just not talked about.


So many times say *but mom was happy!*.. was she really happy or finding happiness in a hopeless situation? Making the best of it? Doing what she thought she was supposed to do? Saving face for the kids?

Did June Cleaver have a choice?

[PurpleQuestions84]

Thank god for housekeepers

[Martina]

If you are mad at feminism, then be mad at yourselves. The women's movement disappeared because it was reasonably successful. Middle class women completely abandonned the movement and the poor women who especially needed it.

It's our fault there is no women's movement.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Martina

If you are mad at feminism, then be mad at yourselves. The women's movement disappeared because it was reasonably successful. Middle class women completely abandonned the movement and the poor women who especially needed it.

It's our fault there is no women's movement.

Unfortunately you are absolutely right. I think it's one of the scummier parts of human nature (of most, not all) to want to take all the help, climb all the ladders to opportunity and success....and then pull those ladders up behind us so no one else can use them.

How many children and grandchildren of immigrants are screaming for us to close our borders? Lots....and it makes me sick. Same thing.

Too often, people "get theirs" and then turn their backs on the people coming up behind them.

Getting on a soapbox here....but I want to slap women of my age who let their young daughters absorb these messages of "what you look like is what you are" and don't say a word, and the media that perpetuates it ad nauseum.

I still contribute to the scholarship fund for low-income women at my alma maters....because college is what pulled my personal fat out of the fire. And I've raised my son to respect women and truly view women (and girls) as equals....not from that "let me help you little lady" place, but on an equal footing. I'm a mentor in my professional life, and my current "mentee" is a young woman...."coincidentally" they all have been....and generally women of color. And, an old habit from the 80s....if I'm standing in the voting booth and I'm faced with a choice I haven't researched enough to have a strong opinion....I choose the female name. Just cuz.

I'm not saying all this to pat myself on the back....I just wish we would all recognize what we can do to further equality...and keep pushing it forward in even small ways.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

If you are mad at feminism, then be mad at yourselves. The women's movement disappeared because it was reasonably successful. Middle class women completely abandonned the movement and the poor women who especially needed it.

It's our fault there is no women's movement.

Ok. I can agree that it is our fault. I do not agree that the movement was reasonably successful though. I have felt like Jo too. I did not want to call myself a feminist. I do now. I have worked since I was 18 and have raised my child as a working mom and sometimes I do get sour about the fact that I am supposed to bring home the bacon and fry it and take care of my child. What makes me realize that things weren't so great when my Mom was raising us as a stay at home mom was that she was unhappy and stifled. So going back to that is not a good choice either.

As a mom I think that kids do well when there is a parent at home. Does not matter if it is Dad or Mom. That is the feminist part to me. Balance is about raising a family and having everyone do their part. Mom cannot do it all! That is the message that I felt was given to me growing up. I had to do it all.

The movement was not successful at all for middle class women when the message is that we have to work and take care of the house and take care of the children. There are not a lot of safety nets or social structures in place in this country to help working mothers. That is a problem.

So what is my part and responsibility? One is to realize that the manufactured ideal of a modern woman fed to me by the media is not feminism. That was hard for me to learn! You and Bully and others here on this site helped me figure that out. I thank you for that!

I hope my daughter will be a mom someday. I want to support her in her growth as a woman. I want to tell her that working and raising a family is all doable and I want to help create the social structures that will make that possible.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by PurpleQuestions84

Thank god for housekeepers

I'd like to thank the the Leather Entities for houseboys/bois/girls myself.....

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Yes, but at what cost?

I'm 50, and was raised in that whole 70's "you can do anything" era. What we ended up with was not anything....but everything. We kept the responsibility for house and children, and gained the responsibility for working and bringing in an income.

It may not be a popular opinion, but I have a certain level of anger at the whole feminist movement....because it got us halfway and left us stranded in a place that is better for some women for sure....but a hell of a lot worse for others. Now we have time limits on public assistance, even for women with small children, because we insist that they work in order to get help. I'm not sure that's the best thing.

People will say we are better at enforcing support on deadbeat dads now...and maybe we are. After all, my own father never paid a nickel and walked away. But, having just been dealing with the Child Support Enforcement office for all of this year and recieving nothing....I would call bullshit on that.

My son was in childcare from the age of 6 weeks....too young for a freaking puppy to leave its mother, because I HAD to work. If I have one huge, overwhelming thing I feel guilt and sadness over...it's that. I never had the chance to simply stay home and be a mother, in part because I managed to reproduce with an idiot, but also in part because society as a whole decided that it was better for me to work than to simply be a mom.

So, yeah, we can do it all. I have done it all. I've been a single mom, worked my whole life, always been the primary breadwinner, always been the housekeeper and cook, put myself though college.....so, yay me. I am fucking exhausted.

actually women have come a long way considering where we were. I'm tired too but I also beat the odds, own my own home/farm, business. I am proud and grateful. I know the challenges all too well. I won't dwell in them. I'm not saying you are.

I use to get angry and pissed off by all the fucking obstacles I had to surmount. I felt cheated and often depressed having to do it all alone. I built this farm for me and my partner. Busted my ass and assumed huge responsibly just for her to fuck up, cheat and basically left me holding the bag. We didn't have kids but we had animals.

Yeah maybe I am a little exhausted now that I think about it all. My best defense is to live my best life and not pay attention to the fact that I'm considered a minority. lol