June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[girl_dee]

While i'm on a tangent.. ever notice how all of the cleaning product commercials are filmed with only feminine women using them?

Just once i'd like to see a man/big burly dyke in one!

[Sachita]

It's very unfair but on the flip side is that women CAN do it all. I'm not going to get into the whole gender equality thing because in my perception there is no equality. And we all know that there are exception to the gender rules, however, how many men are working, raising kids and dealing with everything on Dee's list? Yes, there are SOME.

My mother worked in a factory to raise 4 kids living in projects. My dad helped some but he was too busy growing up.

My granddaughters mother has two kids. There's Mia, my son's child and a child from her last marriage. I raised my son to be self sufficient. He was doing his laundry at age 12, helping to cook and clean. So helping her is never a problem. When they were not together he had no problem picking Mia up, even as an infant and taking her for the weekend. Some people were surprised by this. He just jumped right in changing diapers, feeding and bathing. When his buddy said "Babies need their mama. You part come later." he told him that was bullshit. That its his kid too.

I too was a single mother going to school, working and trying to have a life. thankfully I have supportive family to help. So I make it a point to always be there for her no matter what. If she needs a break to do nothing I'll go watch the kids. Sometimes I don't think she realizes how easy she has it compared to some mothers. I see a lot of mothers really struggling.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Sachita

It's very unfair but on the flip side is that women CAN do it all.

Yes, but at what cost?

I'm 50, and was raised in that whole 70's "you can do anything" era. What we ended up with was not anything....but everything. We kept the responsibility for house and children, and gained the responsibility for working and bringing in an income.

It may not be a popular opinion, but I have a certain level of anger at the whole feminist movement....because it got us halfway and left us stranded in a place that is better for some women for sure....but a hell of a lot worse for others. Now we have time limits on public assistance, even for women with small children, because we insist that they work in order to get help. I'm not sure that's the best thing.

People will say we are better at enforcing support on deadbeat dads now...and maybe we are. After all, my own father never paid a nickel and walked away. But, having just been dealing with the Child Support Enforcement office for all of this year and recieving nothing....I would call bullshit on that.

My son was in childcare from the age of 6 weeks....too young for a freaking puppy to leave its mother, because I HAD to work. If I have one huge, overwhelming thing I feel guilt and sadness over...it's that. I never had the chance to simply stay home and be a mother, in part because I managed to reproduce with an idiot, but also in part because society as a whole decided that it was better for me to work than to simply be a mom.

So, yeah, we can do it all. I have done it all. I've been a single mom, worked my whole life, always been the primary breadwinner, always been the housekeeper and cook, put myself though college.....so, yay me. I am fucking exhausted.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Yes, but at what cost?



It may not be a popular opinion, but I have a certain level of anger at the whole feminist movement....because it got us halfway and left us stranded in a place that is better for some women for sure....but a hell of a lot worse for others.

i am SO agreeing with this!!!

[easygoingfemme]

There are so many sides to that, and I can see and understand them all.
Having been a single parent, and then a partnered parent - partnered to someone who I did not share parenting responsibilities with- and then a single mom again, I have to say that the biggest part for me is that I have a choice.

When my daughter was an infant I was dating a woman who wanted me to move in with her, she wanted to support us, put us on her health insurance, the full picture. It wasn't in an oppressive way for her, she just wanted family, wanted to take care of us. I didn't want that. She was awesome and I was crazy about her, but I didn't want to be dependent on her, no matter how much easier my life would have been if I had gone with it. Around that same time we were talking with friends and they were feeling badly for me because I was doing it all, working, taking care of a baby, etc. However, I couldn't tell them enough that I was so thankful that I had a choice. I was also able to put extreme emphasis on creative a life where I could take my daughter to work with me and avoid daycare until she was much older.

The evolution may have brought us to a point where work/self support is not an option for single parents, and I hate how social services works with mothers, especially new mothers, and especially when newborns are in daycare and mother's hearts are being torn apart over it. I hate all of that.

But the flip side to is it, is that without the ability to go out and earn a living, women would be forced to remain in unhealthy, abusive, and unfulfilled relationships because they most often wouldn't have another way to support themselves. That's not a power dynamic I'd ever want back and it's not a home I'd want to raise a child in.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by easygoingfemme

But the flip side to is it, is that without the ability to go out and earn a living, women would be forced to remain in unhealthy, abusive, and unfulfilled relationships because they most often wouldn't have another way to support themselves. That's not a power dynamic I'd ever want back and it's not a home I'd want to raise a child in.

This is what i am talking about too. NO CHOICE. When my sister told my
Mamere (grandmother) that she was getting a divorce my Mamere replied (in a hushed voice) that she wished divorce was an option in her day. Made me sad. That woman had a hard life at the hands of my Papere and what was expected of her, because she simply did not have a choice. No options. Women were evil if they even spoke about divorcing, even with an abusive asshole. It was just not talked about.


So many times say *but mom was happy!*.. was she really happy or finding happiness in a hopeless situation? Making the best of it? Doing what she thought she was supposed to do? Saving face for the kids?

Did June Cleaver have a choice?

[PurpleQuestions84]

Thank god for housekeepers

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Yes, but at what cost?

I'm 50, and was raised in that whole 70's "you can do anything" era. What we ended up with was not anything....but everything. We kept the responsibility for house and children, and gained the responsibility for working and bringing in an income.

It may not be a popular opinion, but I have a certain level of anger at the whole feminist movement....because it got us halfway and left us stranded in a place that is better for some women for sure....but a hell of a lot worse for others. Now we have time limits on public assistance, even for women with small children, because we insist that they work in order to get help. I'm not sure that's the best thing.

People will say we are better at enforcing support on deadbeat dads now...and maybe we are. After all, my own father never paid a nickel and walked away. But, having just been dealing with the Child Support Enforcement office for all of this year and recieving nothing....I would call bullshit on that.

My son was in childcare from the age of 6 weeks....too young for a freaking puppy to leave its mother, because I HAD to work. If I have one huge, overwhelming thing I feel guilt and sadness over...it's that. I never had the chance to simply stay home and be a mother, in part because I managed to reproduce with an idiot, but also in part because society as a whole decided that it was better for me to work than to simply be a mom.

So, yeah, we can do it all. I have done it all. I've been a single mom, worked my whole life, always been the primary breadwinner, always been the housekeeper and cook, put myself though college.....so, yay me. I am fucking exhausted.

actually women have come a long way considering where we were. I'm tired too but I also beat the odds, own my own home/farm, business. I am proud and grateful. I know the challenges all too well. I won't dwell in them. I'm not saying you are.

I use to get angry and pissed off by all the fucking obstacles I had to surmount. I felt cheated and often depressed having to do it all alone. I built this farm for me and my partner. Busted my ass and assumed huge responsibly just for her to fuck up, cheat and basically left me holding the bag. We didn't have kids but we had animals.

Yeah maybe I am a little exhausted now that I think about it all. My best defense is to live my best life and not pay attention to the fact that I'm considered a minority. lol

[girl_dee]

Yup i've done it all too.

i think the difference is what's expected of us. Women have always done what needs to be done.

What i have an issue with is someone dictating to women what is expected of them to be a *woman*

A woman should be able to do whatever she wants/needs/desires to do without judgment or being told she is less than a woman/femme/mother because of it.

am i making sense?

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by Sachita

It's very unfair but on the flip side is that women CAN do it all. I'm not going to get into the whole gender equality thing because in my perception there is no equality. And we all know that there are exception to the gender rules, however, how many men are working, raising kids and dealing with everything on Dee's list? Yes, there are SOME.

Jumping off Sachita here...

Yes women can do it all. And for a 3/4 of the cost, a fraction of the ownership and triple the workload.

I sort of agree there is no equality. I'm not entirely convinced that equality should be the end goal. Parity? maybe. I do know I am unwilling to settle for less than at least equal by my personal definition of needs/wants. And in my personal pursuit of my life's liberty I remain committed to working toward the equity women as a community.

Being raised by a super strong woman. One who really wanted to have babies and bake brownies... I've learned a thing or two about choosing and the unknown. My mom choose to marry my dad and have kids and planned on staying home with the kids. It didn't work out that way. And I am grateful. Because I got to see what it means to want and go for it ALL and the cost of doing it all (for less, with less and triple the workload).

Now I know. People can say all they want about what I am supposed to do. How I should live and what ideal I should hold myself too. And I am not going to buy it. Not with out looking at it. Examining it, finding what fits, what doesn't and how it can be altered.

I know I have it easier than my mom. Her telling me this doesn't make me angry or even doubt myself anymore. It reminds me who different choices and times lead to different outcomes. I treasure that she shares her lessons. Making my own choices and relying on community and resources is part of how I honor her.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

While i'm on a tangent.. ever notice how all of the cleaning product commercials are filmed with only feminine women using them?

Just once i'd like to see a man/big burly dyke in one!

What a good point!

[Martina]

I'd like to see a big burly dyke on TV at all.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Martina

I'd like to see a big burly dyke on TV at all.

Ain't that the truth. i think i've become so accustomed to seeing the stereotypical representation of the population i don't even notice it anymore.

i have noticed that when there are butch looking women on TV they seem to glam them out sooner or later. Queen Latifah comes to mind. i adore her don't get me wrong, but i loved her appearance more when she was young, tough and butch. Then one day she was glammed out. i miss the old Latifah, but it's really not about me.

[girl_dee]

For years i was in the Big Sister program. Most of the girls were POC, poor, throwaway girls. Young, sometimes pregnant, sometimes pregnant with their own fathers/stepfathers babies. You wanna talk about some girls who feel hopeless?

Many times they joined me in Christmas at my Grandmothers because they had no where to go. i'd take as many as i could fit in my car. i had to be the shero, feed my own ego yaknow, only now i wonder if it made things worse for them.

i am glad we have POC in my family because i imagine it was strange enough walking into the Cajun Christmas madness at my Mamere's. After a little while they would relax but that had to be scary! Quite an experience that i hope they look back on and smile.

i hafta tell you that it only made me hate society more because i then had to return them to the girls home, i felt like a total prick. For one day they were treated well, my family always had gifts and my Mamere always had extras because she never knew who i would be bringing with me.

Then to go back to the home, that sucked.

i hope that our weekends and holidays made them feel less hopeless. i tried to expose them to what life could be like for them. That they were not hopeless. If all girls have to use as role models is what they see on TV, that's a sad case indeed.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Ain't that the truth. i think i've become so accustomed to seeing the stereotypical representation of the population i don't even notice it anymore.

i have noticed that when there are butch looking women on TV they seem to glam them out sooner or later. Queen Latifah comes to mind. i adore her don't get me wrong, but i loved her appearance more when she was young, tough and butch. Then one day she was glammed out. i miss the old Latifah, but it's really not about me.

It's funny I never viewed Queen Latifah as *butch* she's like myself I feel in that she owns her masculinity. The reason I say this is because it's a misconception that cultural comfort and acceptance with masculinity and being a queer woman isnt necessarily tied to being butch.

I would be considered a *macha* in my particular part of cultural POC labels. I own my masculinity so therefore someone can automatically assume me being butch if I wore a particular garb.

This is Queen Latifah as I knew her as a wee lil lass:

Her evolution into her woman hood has gone from masculine hard to feminine soft (in clothing and appearance)

I never thought in her evolution as a woman of color in the rap/hip hop/urban culture/industry was anywhere near butch, it was her finding a balance and playing with her masculine and feminine traits that she has and was born and raised into

[The_Lady_Snow]

As a matter of fact

Latifah is Egyptian for *delicate* *gentle* *pleasant*

Her name right away clearly points that she own's her feminine person

[girl_dee]

Good points, well taken, thank you.

i remember her as this bad ass rapping butch whom i actually had a crush on. i have no idea why and i don't know her personally. i just got that energy from her. She seemed different from the rest. i liked that.

i do still like her as the evolved woman she is today.

i definitely can see a comparison to you, Snow. The different energies.

i do think it's a wonderful thing that a woman can go from point A to point B in her lifetime and not have to answer to, or conform to society's stereotypical woman of today.

[The_Lady_Snow]

READ DISCLAIMER PLEASE


*** I would like to keep this conversation as a FEMME ONLY conversation. If you would like to have this very conversation about the "totem person" of your gender please do so in in your specific Zones. If like myself you want to keep it to specific identity/gender ask in a disclaimer so the conversation is uninterrupted. I've discussed this particular detail with Medusa and got the OK to ask for this allowance***

Thank you

[pinkgeek]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

I have noticed that when there are butch looking women on TV they seem to glam them out sooner or later. Queen Latifah comes to mind. i adore her don't get me wrong, but i loved her appearance more when she was young, tough and butch. Then one day she was glammed out. i miss the old Latifah, but it's really not about me.

Once upon a time I had a conversation very similar to the above comment with my at that time butch partner. She was hot under the collar about a certain news personality (clue Maddow) and she assumed and assured me that Maddow had been forced to be less butch to be successful.

My retort was that while it may be true that she had to be less butch to be successful in mainstream media.... (I've never read an article about that or researched it so I don't know) who are we to assume that it wasn't her choice. I feel the same way about Queen Latifah.

It's a particularly queer kind of arrogance (no offense Dee I'm using your comment as a jumping point) that we assume when someones gender/presentation evolves from butch to femme, or trans to femme or femme to butch etc. and so forth that they are either being forced to by society or they are being a traitor to their gender/identification.

In NO WAY am I saying society hasn't and doesn't pressured people to present themselves in a specific way to be successful, but I think we do need to be careful not to lay judgements and assumptions on especially successful women.

Another similar example that was just pointed out to me is about one of my favorite authors (who is also a personal friend of my beloved butch). I complained before reading more works that I wish her work was more overtly queer. Upon further inspection and thought if her work was overtly queer chances are she wouldn't be one of the souths most successful authors as well as a New York Times best selling author. I really needed to step back and examine that being a queer author isn't a must because she has same sex relationships. It's her right as a woman/human to choose to put being an author ahead or being an activist.

We put so much pressure on those who are successful and who are representatives of our queer culture. At what point are they allowed to just make a choice without inspection. By default they are spokes peeps and representatives, but it's not by obligation.

Feminism in it's most simple form to me is choice. Having the knowledge and education (doesn't have to be formal) to choose to be an astronaut or a stay at home mom. Feminism to me is also choosing not to judge informed decisions by women. Women queer or straight face enough adversity and judgement without me adding to it.

Your mileage may vary - mine isn't perfect.

[~ocean]

very well said pink !