June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

If you are mad at feminism, then be mad at yourselves. The women's movement disappeared because it was reasonably successful. Middle class women completely abandonned the movement and the poor women who especially needed it.

It's our fault there is no women's movement.

Ok. I can agree that it is our fault. I do not agree that the movement was reasonably successful though. I have felt like Jo too. I did not want to call myself a feminist. I do now. I have worked since I was 18 and have raised my child as a working mom and sometimes I do get sour about the fact that I am supposed to bring home the bacon and fry it and take care of my child. What makes me realize that things weren't so great when my Mom was raising us as a stay at home mom was that she was unhappy and stifled. So going back to that is not a good choice either.

As a mom I think that kids do well when there is a parent at home. Does not matter if it is Dad or Mom. That is the feminist part to me. Balance is about raising a family and having everyone do their part. Mom cannot do it all! That is the message that I felt was given to me growing up. I had to do it all.

The movement was not successful at all for middle class women when the message is that we have to work and take care of the house and take care of the children. There are not a lot of safety nets or social structures in place in this country to help working mothers. That is a problem.

So what is my part and responsibility? One is to realize that the manufactured ideal of a modern woman fed to me by the media is not feminism. That was hard for me to learn! You and Bully and others here on this site helped me figure that out. I thank you for that!

I hope my daughter will be a mom someday. I want to support her in her growth as a woman. I want to tell her that working and raising a family is all doable and I want to help create the social structures that will make that possible.

[JustJo]

This whole Queen Latifah bend in the conversation is interesting to me. First, because I absolutely love her and, second, because although she resonates powerful, confident, badass woman to me....she has never read "butch"....with the exception of the character she played in Set It Off.

I wonder why we want to immediately assign "butch" to women with energy and strength that is traditionally deemed masculine.

I wouldn't say that I have any masculine energy....like zero. I'm not girly-girly, but I've even been surprised when I see myself on video that my gestures and body language are far more traditionally "feminine" than I would have thought.

However, in my work life, I'm in charge of project teams...and frequently what we call "tiger teams" - specialists who are charged with relentlessly hunting down and killing flaws in the design or function of the project. They aren't easy people to coordinate at times....and I am in charge of keeping them all on track, on time, on budget and working together. In my meetings, and in my projects, there is no doubt who is in charge. I speak softly, I am polite....and I am in fucking charge. Overstep my bounds and you (general you) will learn that quickly as you pull back a bloody stump....regardless of the title you wear in the company.

I think it's a fallacy that women have to have any masculine energy at all to be powerful. I also think it's a fallacy that they have to be "bitchy" to be in charge.

I can be soft, feminine, even quiet....and absolutely in charge.

[Martina]

There were rumors that she ID'd as butch in her private life. Who knows?

[girl_dee]

this whole convo has made me realize that i SO equated masculine to butch.

we ALL have masculine energy, some more than others.

i am as femme as they come but sometimes enjoy rolling in some "masculine" energy. At the time i don't feel masculine. i feel like a femme enjoying some non tradtitional femme activity.

like changing the oil in the car.

You'd never see old June Cleaver doing that.

[*Anya*]

To me, regardless of her feminine dress or appearance, the Queen always felt to me as butch.

Of course, it may or may not be how she identifies herself or how anyone else perceives her.

I "feel" butch/masculine energy from women.

As in many things, my perception may not be correct.

I enjoy it when I feel it.

[girl_dee]

but does masculine energy always equal butch?

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

but does masculine energy always equal butch?

I think we could go round and round on this one and no one would be wrong.

To me, masculine does equal butch.

Are femmes strong and powerful?

Absolutely! It is a femme energy to me. Their/our/my energy is always femme, even if kicking ass and taking names (exaggerating here, of course).

Again, how I see it and feel it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

but does masculine energy always equal butch?

No, Studs, Agressives, dykes, machas, cholas, Femmes have it. I know I do there's no arguing it. It is what it is. Masculinity isn't gender specific.

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

this whole convo has made me realize that i SO equated masculine to butch.

we ALL have masculine energy, some more than others.

i am as femme as they come but sometimes enjoy rolling in some "masculine" energy. At the time i don't feel masculine. i feel like a femme enjoying some non tradtitional femme activity.

like changing the oil in the car.

You'd never see old June Cleaver doing that.

The part I bolded is interesting to me.

I am later arriving in my life to the Femme scene. So I am not quite sure how to say what is traditional and non traditional femme in presentation and energy.

I identify as Femme. My dominate presentation in dress/style is Femme. I don't quiet go as far to say my gender is Femme. Because I don't feel like I have a gender and sex. I've been assigned one. I am not opposed to my assigned gender and sex.

My energy is a bit something I do not qualify as masculine or feminine. Sometimes I flow better with those that are presenting as masculine in energy. Sometimes with femmes and the "I don't know what you are talking about I am just a woman" folks. Because to me my energy is just me in the world doing what I do. I may be interpreted as masculine or feminine (or just weird) by others differently at times. And the interpretation of my energy as a type of gender and reacting to me as if I am masculine or feminine drives me batty. It is as if they missed the point.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by JustJo

This whole Queen Latifah bend in the conversation is interesting to me. First, because I absolutely love her and, second, because although she resonates powerful, confident, badass woman to me....she has never read "butch"....with the exception of the character she played in Set It Off.

I wonder why we want to immediately assign "butch" to women with energy and strength that is traditionally deemed masculine.

I wouldn't say that I have any masculine energy....like zero. I'm not girly-girly, but I've even been surprised when I see myself on video that my gestures and body language are far more traditionally "feminine" than I would have thought.

However, in my work life, I'm in charge of project teams...and frequently what we call "tiger teams" - specialists who are charged with relentlessly hunting down and killing flaws in the design or function of the project. They aren't easy people to coordinate at times....and I am in charge of keeping them all on track, on time, on budget and working together. In my meetings, and in my projects, there is no doubt who is in charge. I speak softly, I am polite....and I am in fucking charge. Overstep my bounds and you (general you) will learn that quickly as you pull back a bloody stump....regardless of the title you wear in the company.

I think it's a fallacy that women have to have any masculine energy at all to be powerful. I also think it's a fallacy that they have to be "bitchy" to be in charge.

I can be soft, feminine, even quiet....and absolutely in charge.

My favorite post was Jo's.....

Particularly the ideas I highlighted with bold font in Jo's post.

<<<<<~~ Quiet, reserved, soft, polite, yet absolutely in charge of my own life.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

My favorite post was Jo's.....

Particularly the ideas I highlighted with bold font in Jo's post.

<<<<<~~ Quiet, reserved, soft, polite, yet absolutely in charge of my own life.

OHHH i do like that!