June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Martina

I'd like to see a big burly dyke on TV at all.

Ain't that the truth. i think i've become so accustomed to seeing the stereotypical representation of the population i don't even notice it anymore.

i have noticed that when there are butch looking women on TV they seem to glam them out sooner or later. Queen Latifah comes to mind. i adore her don't get me wrong, but i loved her appearance more when she was young, tough and butch. Then one day she was glammed out. i miss the old Latifah, but it's really not about me.

[girl_dee]

For years i was in the Big Sister program. Most of the girls were POC, poor, throwaway girls. Young, sometimes pregnant, sometimes pregnant with their own fathers/stepfathers babies. You wanna talk about some girls who feel hopeless?

Many times they joined me in Christmas at my Grandmothers because they had no where to go. i'd take as many as i could fit in my car. i had to be the shero, feed my own ego yaknow, only now i wonder if it made things worse for them.

i am glad we have POC in my family because i imagine it was strange enough walking into the Cajun Christmas madness at my Mamere's. After a little while they would relax but that had to be scary! Quite an experience that i hope they look back on and smile.

i hafta tell you that it only made me hate society more because i then had to return them to the girls home, i felt like a total prick. For one day they were treated well, my family always had gifts and my Mamere always had extras because she never knew who i would be bringing with me.

Then to go back to the home, that sucked.

i hope that our weekends and holidays made them feel less hopeless. i tried to expose them to what life could be like for them. That they were not hopeless. If all girls have to use as role models is what they see on TV, that's a sad case indeed.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Ain't that the truth. i think i've become so accustomed to seeing the stereotypical representation of the population i don't even notice it anymore.

i have noticed that when there are butch looking women on TV they seem to glam them out sooner or later. Queen Latifah comes to mind. i adore her don't get me wrong, but i loved her appearance more when she was young, tough and butch. Then one day she was glammed out. i miss the old Latifah, but it's really not about me.

It's funny I never viewed Queen Latifah as *butch* she's like myself I feel in that she owns her masculinity. The reason I say this is because it's a misconception that cultural comfort and acceptance with masculinity and being a queer woman isnt necessarily tied to being butch.

I would be considered a *macha* in my particular part of cultural POC labels. I own my masculinity so therefore someone can automatically assume me being butch if I wore a particular garb.

This is Queen Latifah as I knew her as a wee lil lass:

Her evolution into her woman hood has gone from masculine hard to feminine soft (in clothing and appearance)

I never thought in her evolution as a woman of color in the rap/hip hop/urban culture/industry was anywhere near butch, it was her finding a balance and playing with her masculine and feminine traits that she has and was born and raised into

[The_Lady_Snow]

As a matter of fact

Latifah is Egyptian for *delicate* *gentle* *pleasant*

Her name right away clearly points that she own's her feminine person

[girl_dee]

Good points, well taken, thank you.

i remember her as this bad ass rapping butch whom i actually had a crush on. i have no idea why and i don't know her personally. i just got that energy from her. She seemed different from the rest. i liked that.

i do still like her as the evolved woman she is today.

i definitely can see a comparison to you, Snow. The different energies.

i do think it's a wonderful thing that a woman can go from point A to point B in her lifetime and not have to answer to, or conform to society's stereotypical woman of today.

[princessbelle]

I don't think i've ever thought of Queen Latifah as a butch. But, i have majorly picked up on her masculine energy. For me, it's on the lines of Jodi Foster or Ellen. I don't *think* they claim the id as butch. It's the masculine energy i'm talking about. It's there without saying a word.

OMG is that hot or what.

MAJOR swooooooooooooooon!!!!!!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Good points, well taken, thank you.

i remember her as this bad ass rapping butch whom i actually had a crush on. i have no idea why and i don't know her personally. i just got that energy from her. She seemed different from the rest. i liked that.

i do still like her as the evolved woman she is today.

i definitely can see a comparison to you, Snow. The different energies.

i do think it's a wonderful thing that a woman can go from point A to point B in her lifetime and not have to answer to, or conform to society's stereotypical woman of today.

Latifah came out in the late 80's, I remember going to a store on Mission St and buying her LP

"Hail to the Queen"


She was AMAZING, she not only wore traditional garb with confidence she wore it with pride.

Her style was hard and her rhymes are about strength and perseverance, in her single "Ladies First" :

This particular song is a Feminist anthem.



"Come to My House" - pens with the ultra-diva line, "Welcome into my Queendom..."


It wasn't until the movie "Set It Off" that the assumption and assignment of butch was placed on her because of the look she portrayed in the movie as a matter of fact all four of the women in the movie had "masculine energies"

The Queen was a continuous movement by the women of color in the hip hop/urban/rap culture women were claiming their space, they did it hard, they did it strong and it SCARED people and changed the music scene and opened it so women like MIA, Nicki Minage.


Missy Elliot is a great example of masculinity and femininity being fluid in a woman she could go from hard to soft real easy and not skip a beat.

If I was more comfortable pulling out old pictures, I can show you in *chola* clothing how I can easily convert my appearance from feminine to hard masculine with just a few accessories.

[The_Lady_Snow]

READ DISCLAIMER PLEASE


*** I would like to keep this conversation as a FEMME ONLY conversation. If you would like to have this very conversation about the "totem person" of your gender please do so in in your specific Zones. If like myself you want to keep it to specific identity/gender ask in a disclaimer so the conversation is uninterrupted. I've discussed this particular detail with Medusa and got the OK to ask for this allowance***

Thank you

[pinkgeek]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

I have noticed that when there are butch looking women on TV they seem to glam them out sooner or later. Queen Latifah comes to mind. i adore her don't get me wrong, but i loved her appearance more when she was young, tough and butch. Then one day she was glammed out. i miss the old Latifah, but it's really not about me.

Once upon a time I had a conversation very similar to the above comment with my at that time butch partner. She was hot under the collar about a certain news personality (clue Maddow) and she assumed and assured me that Maddow had been forced to be less butch to be successful.

My retort was that while it may be true that she had to be less butch to be successful in mainstream media.... (I've never read an article about that or researched it so I don't know) who are we to assume that it wasn't her choice. I feel the same way about Queen Latifah.

It's a particularly queer kind of arrogance (no offense Dee I'm using your comment as a jumping point) that we assume when someones gender/presentation evolves from butch to femme, or trans to femme or femme to butch etc. and so forth that they are either being forced to by society or they are being a traitor to their gender/identification.

In NO WAY am I saying society hasn't and doesn't pressured people to present themselves in a specific way to be successful, but I think we do need to be careful not to lay judgements and assumptions on especially successful women.

Another similar example that was just pointed out to me is about one of my favorite authors (who is also a personal friend of my beloved butch). I complained before reading more works that I wish her work was more overtly queer. Upon further inspection and thought if her work was overtly queer chances are she wouldn't be one of the souths most successful authors as well as a New York Times best selling author. I really needed to step back and examine that being a queer author isn't a must because she has same sex relationships. It's her right as a woman/human to choose to put being an author ahead or being an activist.

We put so much pressure on those who are successful and who are representatives of our queer culture. At what point are they allowed to just make a choice without inspection. By default they are spokes peeps and representatives, but it's not by obligation.

Feminism in it's most simple form to me is choice. Having the knowledge and education (doesn't have to be formal) to choose to be an astronaut or a stay at home mom. Feminism to me is also choosing not to judge informed decisions by women. Women queer or straight face enough adversity and judgement without me adding to it.

Your mileage may vary - mine isn't perfect.

[~ocean]

very well said pink !

[girl_dee]

Yes very well said! Thanks you for being considerate but i am not offended in the least.

i hope our posts do lead go deeper thinking and sharing a pov.

It has been an observation that sometimes what i feel is butch energy is
held down in Hollywood or even the music industry.

i do certainly want to be aware that women do sometimes flow in and out if their own energies and not just to please their manager.

i do think it's less popular to be butch - like in Hollwood and maybe that's a pressure on entertainers, i don't know.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by pinkgeek

Another similar example that was just pointed out to me is about one of my favorite authors (who is also a personal friend of my beloved butch). I complained before reading more works that I wish her work was more overtly queer. Upon further inspection and thought if her work was overtly queer chances are she wouldn't be one of the souths most successful authors as well as a New York Times best selling author.

Rita Mae Brown??

Fannie Flagg??

Inquiring minds . . . .

[easygoingfemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

Rita Mae Brown??

Fannie Flagg??

Inquiring minds . . . .

Omg yes please spill who it is you know! We won't harass you for introductions, promise! (my fingers just might be oh so slightly crossed behind my back)

[pinkgeek]

Originally Posted by easygoingfemme

Omg yes please spill who it is you know! We won't harass you for introductions, promise! (my fingers just might be oh so slightly crossed behind my back)

What I neglected to articulate in my post (hence mentioning that I was criticizing an author hy has a friendship with) was that it took hym basically saying "Hey wait, slow your roll....<insert personal stories here>" when I said I wished the author was more overtly queer in her writing.

I learn and have my most profound "aha" moments through personal stories and interaction. Those interactions can happen online, over the phone or in person.

Thanks for the awesome dialogue everyone and Snow for starting it all off..

[princesskathie]

I'm jumping into this thread way way late, but I want to chime in on the original June Cleaver question.

I don't feel any sort of femme connection with Junie at all. She was unendingly dull because the only role she had was to facilitate the happenings in other people's lives. My memory may be blurry, but I don't recollect June ever doing anything interesting EVER. I mean, really, even Barbie went to the moon and became a veterinarian.

Plus June dressed EXACTLY like every single other girl on the block, and my flavor of femminess expresses itself through the way I doll up. I'm a girlygirl, but I certainly don't want to dress in standard girlygirl uniform.

I respect the value of taking care of others that June embodied, but we can certainly take good care of our loved ones while being vibrant femmes in our own right.

[Sarafemme]

Originally Posted by princesskathie

I'm jumping into this thread way way late, but I want to chime in on the original June Cleaver question.

I don't feel any sort of femme connection with Junie at all. She was unendingly dull because the only role she had was to facilitate the happenings in other people's lives. My memory may be blurry, but I don't recollect June ever doing anything interesting EVER. I mean, really, even Barbie went to the moon and became a veterinarian.

Plus June dressed EXACTLY like every single other girl on the block, and my flavor of femminess expresses itself through the way I doll up. I'm a girlygirl, but I certainly don't want to dress in standard girlygirl uniform.

I respect the value of taking care of others that June embodied, but we can certainly take good care of our loved ones while being vibrant femmes in our own right.

I completely agree with PrincessKathie re: June Cleaver. I was born in the mid-70s so I don't remember seeing the show until I was an adult (and then in re-runs, obviously). I can see an attraction to the idea of 'playing' a 1950s-housewife role for kink reasons (but I'd certainly embody something more exciting than June Cleaver). I tend to like those greeting cards you see with the vintage housewife pictures on them and some subversive thought in a bubble above them (the whole notion of 'What were they /really/ thinking?) LOL.