Unconditional Love... is it really unconditional?

[key]

This is a topic I wrestle with daily.

This question of unconditional love, especially in regards to family members.

I am from a fundamental Christian family. I have 8 brothers and sisters, two of which, in my opinion, would be gay if they were not so...fundamentally Christian. Or to put it another way, are gay and would allow themselves to be themselves if they were not so fundamentally Christian.

So every year 2-3 times I make the pilgrimage to my home, to visit my ailing mother and to visit with (for my mothers sake) my siblings, their spouses and their children, sum total about 35 (honestly I've lost count - I just see one gigantic carbon footprint)

And every time, after every pilgrimage, I come back twisted up inside because we all tell each other that we love each other, but....well...how can they love me? When they do not hold a vision of me of even being okay in the eyes of "God." How can I love them, knowing what they believe to be true about me?

I have not fully answered this question. I try to love them and I believe that they are trying to love me. Perhaps we are all loving each other to best of our abilities. Isn't that all we ever do for one another? Is there ever such a thing as unconditional love...really?

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by key

This is a topic I wrestle with daily.

This question of unconditional love, especially in regards to family members.

I am from a fundamental Christian family. I have 8 brothers and sisters, two of which, in my opinion, would be gay if they were not so...fundamentally Christian. Or to put it another way, are gay and would allow themselves to be themselves if they were not so fundamentally Christian.

So every year 2-3 times I make the pilgrimage to my home, to visit my ailing mother and to visit with (for my mothers sake) my siblings, their spouses and their children, sum total about 35 (honestly I've lost count - I just see one gigantic carbon footprint)

And every time, after every pilgrimage, I come back twisted up inside because we all tell each other that we love each other, but....well...how can they love me? When they do not hold a vision of me of even being okay in the eyes of "God." How can I love them, knowing what they believe to be true about me?

I have not fully answered this question. I try to love them and I believe that they are trying to love me. Perhaps we are all loving each other to best of our abilities. Isn't that all we ever do for one another? Is there ever such a thing as unconditional love...really?

I've been thinking about this myself as well. What is unconditional love, really? Can it *really* exist. I want to say yes, but I'm not sure I can...

I think to myself that I love people in my life unconditionally...but what if one of them became a drug addict and stole from me? Or killed someone? Or???

Could I unconditionally love someone who betrayed me so much?

I posted in another thread about a colleague who had been reconnecting with her faith and questioning heaven and hell. Her pastor's wife was explaining that they believe if you do not live a Christian life, that you go to hell. So basically all my colleague's friends, whom she loved, based on this belief, were going to hell. She could not reconcile this.

So I think about your family...they love you I am sure, but in their eyes, you are committing a huge sin, I imagine. And you love them, even though they think you are not okay...

It's challenging...

[cinderella]

Only dogs & pupppies love unconditionally, and that's if you feed them!!

[key]

very reluctantly quoting Don Henley.

I think it's about forgiveness, forgiveness, even if, even if
you don't love me anymore

I do believe it is possible to love unconditionally, maybe not everybody can do it and maybe not all the time. But I have had fleeting moments where I could look at my family, honestly, with all their flaws and shortcomings and not want them to be different, instead simply accepting them as-is. Isn't that unconditional love?

I think love and forgiveness can be learned. I don't think it is always something that just happens naturally (for most of us). For our sweethearts it is easier, but for those who don't fit so neatly into our ideals? I believe practice can make perfect. And our actions can change our minds more than the other way around. Just practicing kindness in the face of fierce opposition can be very powerful.

It's sort of side note, but did you see that video recently of the man with Parkinson's disease who sat in front of anti-healthcare protesters? The anti-health protesters were so vile, that him simply sitting there, literally absorbing their venom, was the most powerful image I have seen in a long long time. I don't know if he couldn't physically lash back or he just chose not to. But dayamn, I wish I could be that calm in the face of so much anti-Christian hatred I see from so many Jesus lovers.

[Gemme]

I do not believe in unconditional love. There are always conditions, whether conscious or not, and whether intentional or not.

If you don't do a, b, or c, I will withhold my affection for you. If you don't love me as I want to be loved, I will not love you as you want to be loved. If you do this, I'll do that.

For pets, if you don't feed me and love on me, I will shit in your shoes.

For children, if you do not give me the attention I seek and need, I will act out to get it, find another source to get it, or turn the demon inward.

These are just examples. I actually think that loving with conditions is a good thing. It's built in protection.

Person A is constantly hurting my feelings and trash talking me, so, though I do love him/her, I will withhold my affection and attention and put more space between us. I will take myself out of that negative energy space. That's a good thing.

[moxie]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I do not believe in unconditional love. There are always conditions, whether conscious or not, and whether intentional or not.

If you don't do a, b, or c, I will withhold my affection for you. If you don't love me as I want to be loved, I will not love you as you want to be loved. If you do this, I'll do that.

For pets, if you don't feed me and love on me, I will shit in your shoes.

For children, if you do not give me the attention I seek and need, I will act out to get it, find another source to get it, or turn the demon inward.

These are just examples. I actually think that loving with conditions is a good thing. It's built in protection.

Person A is constantly hurting my feelings and trash talking me, so, though I do love him/her, I will withhold my affection and attention and put more space between us. I will take myself out of that negative energy space. That's a good thing.

I whole-heartedly agree with your view on unconditional love as I feel the same. I am aware that I feel this way because I have never received unconditional love from my family (long story) and have no contact with them, so I truly do not know what it is or what it feels like to have. I do believe that it exists, but not in my personal framework. Not sure it ever will.

[WolfyOne]

Personally, I think only animals and little children can give unconditional love because they depend on us. No matter how you treat them, they'll always come back because they need you. As children get older, they learn to fend for themselves and unconditional love will no longer exist. Seems as we grow older, if you can't accept the good, bad and ugly in a partner, you'll never be able to give or receive unconditional love.

[Pixie]

I think it is possible for unconditional love to exist within disagreement...

I know for me, I didn't care if parts of my family didn't agree with my orientation...because I love them.

I don't agree with things my mother put me in the middle of, and the decisions she made and things going on including her life choice...but I love her unconditionally and will continue to...regardless of her choices...

just my opinion

[Starbuck]

Originally Posted by cinderella

Only dogs & pupppies love unconditionally, and that's if you feed them!!

Dogs and puppies love unconditionally, period. Cats and kitties love CONDITIONALLY if/when you feed them.

[ravfem]

i have unconditional love for my oldest friend, CLS. She is the one who taught me about unconditional love, without even knowing it.

Her life is very very different than mine, and the last time i visited with her, she was mentally ill (drug induced paranoid schizophrenia) from 20 years of drug abuse & addiction.

Long ago, i learned how to love and accept her as is, without judging her life choices or punishing her because she did things i didn't approve of. my choice was love her as is or don't continue to be in her life (my own conclusions, nothing ever said by her).

It wasn't an easy process for me, but slowly i learned how to give her love unconditionally. And i am ever thankful that i did that, for her and for myself.

Loving someone, in a romantic sense, unconditionally is much more difficult for me. But i'm workin on it

[imperfect_cupcake]

it really depends on your definition of love doesn' it?

my brother is a sick man. he's severely abusive, has mental health issues and sexually and physically tortured me for years.

I love him. I care about how he is. I don't EVER want him around me if I can help it (I tolerate him at funerals and I'm nice to him at those instances, otherwise I politely leave). I'm glad he got lots of very good treatment and he's now back at school.

No I don't forgive him. But I love him and care that he's doing well and that mom loves him and gives him lots of support, even though he's not exactly kind to her, verbally.

love as a feeling of care, yes. Love as in support and interaction? no.

But then I grew up knowing that people can love you, really love you, yet treat you like shit because of how incapable they are. and it doesn't mean just cause they love you that you have to put up with any of it.

love is a feeling. it doesn't nessecisarily mean much else. Just like anger, it can be constructive or self harming. it depends on the expression.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by cinderella

Only dogs & pupppies love unconditionally, and that's if you feed them!!

My son loves me unconditionally, that is where i am learning to be a better person

[MysticOceansFL]

It is as long as it's not taken for granted of! I would think.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by key

This is a topic I wrestle with daily.

This question of unconditional love, especially in regards to family members.

I am from a fundamental Christian family. I have 8 brothers and sisters, two of which, in my opinion, would be gay if they were not so...fundamentally Christian. Or to put it another way, are gay and would allow themselves to be themselves if they were not so fundamentally Christian.

So every year 2-3 times I make the pilgrimage to my home, to visit my ailing mother and to visit with (for my mothers sake) my siblings, their spouses and their children, sum total about 35 (honestly I've lost count - I just see one gigantic carbon footprint)

And every time, after every pilgrimage, I come back twisted up inside because we all tell each other that we love each other, but....well...how can they love me? When they do not hold a vision of me of even being okay in the eyes of "God." How can I love them, knowing what they believe to be true about me?
I have not fully answered this question. I try to love them and I believe that they are trying to love me. Perhaps we are all loving each other to best of our abilities. Isn't that all we ever do for one another? Is there ever such a thing as unconditional love...really?

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"][B]
I've been thinking about this myself as well. What is unconditional love, really? Can it *really* exist. I want to say yes, but I'm not sure I can...

I think to myself that I love people in my life unconditionally...but what if one of them became a drug addict and stole from me? Or killed someone? Or???

Could I unconditionally love someone who betrayed me so much?

I posted in another thread about a colleague who had been reconnecting with her faith and questioning heaven and hell. Her pastor's wife was explaining that they believe if you do not live a Christian life, that you go to hell. So basically all my colleague's friends, whom she loved, based on this belief, were going to hell. She could not reconcile this.

So I think about your family...they love you I am sure, but in their eyes, you are committing a huge sin, I imagine. And you love them, even though they think you are not okay...

It's challenging.

Hi Key and SassyLeo.

Key, I too grew up in a Fundamentalist Christian household. My parents truly, truly, truly worry about my eternal life. They worry that I may go to hell. For them, the way one gets to heaven is [believing that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accepting him as your Lord and Savior.]. You do not get to heaven by good works. You do not get to heaven by being a nice guy, a good mother, a good partner, and a good friend. You get to heaven through the above, just as SassyLeo's colleague was told. The expectation is that you will have a "relationship" with God/Jesus and live your life according to his Word (Bible).

The version of the Bible my parents use says that homosexuality is a sin. Now, under their church's teaching, you don't go to hell for sinning, your go for not accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. However, things get kind of sticky around the sin part b/c the assumption is that if you are choosing to do a habitual sin (sleep with the same sex and plan on repeating it), than one could theoretically question if a person is really a Christian b/c if you were a Christian you would not want to sin against God. Therefore, since I sleep with someone of the same sex, I must not (at minimum) have the "right kind" of relationship with God, so it calls into question if I will make it into heaven or not. Still with me? lol

My parents are worried about this...I mean WORRIED. They love their kid. And I truly believe that they love me unconditionally. I think that it is possible to love someone unconditionally (especially for a parent...well, this is what it seems like anyway but, I am not a parent). They are just freaked out about it. Have they wanted to meet my partners in the past? Well, I can't say that they were excited about it, but always responded with a yes to meeting them. Have I explained to them that it is important that if I have someone who looks to be a long term partner that they need to accept her and our relationship? Yep. Have they tried in this regard over the past few years? Yep.

But, do they still think that I am probably going to hell and do I think they most likely pray that I will become straight? Yep. Do I think that they "love me unconditionally"? Yep. I see it in soooo many ways, just too many times to discount.

So, Key, for me, my parents concern for my eternal life and their belief that I am sinning does not mean to me that they don't love me. In this case, it means that maybe they love me too much. If they didn't it wouldn't tear them up inside and it wouldn't "cause [my] father to pace the floors at night" (Yeah mom, thanks for THAT guilt! You get away with saying that ONCE!).

So no, their belief system does not impact their ability and natural inclination of unconditional love for me.

Side note: My parents are in no way, in your face, bible thumpers. They just do their thing and if someone asked them about their "thing", they would be happy to share it with them.

Side, side note: Damn, I never expected that I would ever share this much about my family and how their religion impacts things (and me) on a web site.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

[/COLOR]
Hi Key and SassyLeo.

Key, I too grew up in a Fundamentalist Christian household. My parents truly, truly, truly worry about my eternal life. They worry that I may go to hell. For them, the way one gets to heaven is [believing that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and accepting him as your Lord and Savior.]. You do not get to heaven by good works. You do not get to heaven by being a nice guy, a good mother, a good partner, and a good friend. You get to heaven through the above, just as SassyLeo's colleague was told. The expectation is that you will have a "relationship" with God/Jesus and live your life according to his Word (Bible).

The version of the Bible my parents use says that homosexuality is a sin. Now, under their church's teaching, you don't go to hell for sinning, your go for not accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. However, things get kind of sticky around the sin part b/c the assumption is that if you are choosing to do a habitual sin (sleep with the same sex and plan on repeating it), than one could theoretically question if a person is really a Christian b/c if you were a Christian you would not want to sin against God. Therefore, since I sleep with someone of the same sex, I must not (at minimum) have the "right kind" of relationship with God, so it calls into question if I will make it into heaven or not. Still with me? lol

My parents are worried about this...I mean WORRIED. They love their kid. And I truly believe that they love me unconditionally. I think that it is possible to love someone unconditionally (especially for a parent...well, this is what it seems like anyway but, I am not a parent). They are just freaked out about it. Have they wanted to meet my partners in the past? Well, I can't say that they were excited about it, but always responded with a yes to meeting them. Have I explained to them that it is important that if I have someone who looks to be a long term partner that they need to accept her and our relationship? Yep. Have they tried in this regard over the past few years? Yep.

But, do they still think that I am probably going to hell and do I think they most likely pray that I will become straight? Yep. Do I think that they "love me unconditionally"? Yep. I see it in soooo many ways, just too many times to discount.

So, Key, for me, my parents concern for my eternal life and their belief that I am sinning does not mean to me that they don't love me. In this case, it means that maybe they love me too much. If they didn't it wouldn't tear them up inside and it wouldn't "cause [my] father to pace the floors at night" (Yeah mom, thanks for THAT guilt! You get away with saying that ONCE!).

So no, their belief system does not impact their ability and natural inclination of unconditional love for me.

Side note: My parents are in no way, in your face, bible thumpers. They just do their thing and if someone asked them about their "thing", they would be happy to share it with them.

Side, side note: Damn, I never expected that I would ever share this much about my family and how their religion impacts things (and me) on a web site.

Thank you for this perspective.

Because I don't subscribe to traditional Christian beliefs about Jesus, Lord and Savior, sinning, etc....I do not understand and have a huge challenge even trying to *get* these belief systems.

I can feel from your post that they do love you and are worried. from that heart/head space, I can grasp better.

Doesn't mean I'm joining the Christian masses obviously....but it helps to process it

[hippieflowergirl]

a few years ago i had a conversation with someone so much smarter than i could ever hope to be who said he thought our job in life was to enter into certain "unconditional contracts" with the Universe, contracts whose purpose was to teach us what we needed to know. the conversation took place over several days but when it was over i was hooked on his idea.

most days i suck at being part of humanity. i dont understand how it works or how to fit in. i dont always feel a connection to the contracts i chose (unconditional acceptance, unconditional forgiveness, and unconditional love) but it's not the choices themselves that make me uncomfortable. i do that all on my own by making countless mistakes. but i never feel like i can go wholly wrong if i hang on to my agreements...even if i'm hanging on by my fingernails.

i know people who dont think it's possible to live unconditionally but i think they mistake "unconditional" with being a door mat and/or with altruism. but i never said living unconditionally meant someone could walk all over me and i never said i didnt get anything out of it.

unconditional acceptance, forgiveness and love are the easiest things in the world. they're just choices. all of life is simple. it's the things we try to "do" rather than our efforts to just "be" that cause the confusion. and then it's easy to give up too.

maybe we just need to keep choosing...not just once a week or every day...but every minute...every breath.

(shrug) sorry i'm just rambling like an idiot. i'm tired.

i like the freedom my three contracts give me. i like how much less complicated life became once the choices were made. the one stumbling block i run into from time to time is applying that same acceptance, forgiveness and love to myself.

[KayCee]

I believe the greatest form of unconditional love is between mother and child.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

a few years ago i had a conversation with someone so much smarter than i could ever hope to be who said he thought our job in life was to enter into certain "unconditional contracts" with the Universe, contracts whose purpose was to teach us what we needed to know. the conversation took place over several days but when it was over i was hooked on his idea.

most days i suck at being part of humanity. i dont understand how it works or how to fit in. i dont always feel a connection to the contracts i chose (unconditional acceptance, unconditional forgiveness, and unconditional love) but it's not the choices themselves that make me uncomfortable. i do that all on my own by making countless mistakes. but i never feel like i can go wholly wrong if i hang on to my agreements...even if i'm hanging on by my fingernails.

i know people who dont think it's possible to live unconditionally but i think they mistake "unconditional" with being a door mat and/or with altruism. but i never said living unconditionally meant someone could walk all over me and i never said i didnt get anything out of it.

unconditional acceptance, forgiveness and love are the easiest things in the world. they're just choices. all of life is simple. it's the things we try to "do" rather than our efforts to just "be" that cause the confusion. and then it's easy to give up too.

maybe we just need to keep choosing...not just once a week or every day...but every minute...every breath.

(shrug) sorry i'm just rambling like an idiot. i'm tired.

i like the freedom my three contracts give me. i like how much less complicated life became once the choices were made. the one stumbling block i run into from time to time is applying that same acceptance, forgiveness and love to myself.

oh wow - well put and honest. I feel like I am always struggling to keep that connection. Life sure has many lessons but even with this my ability to love only grows stronger.

we are human, however the question really is "are we conscious?" we all have days we go through the motions and sometimes its easier to ignore than deal with something. BUT you're right, considering our actions often, making it muscle memory, part of us, this clearly defines us. No matter how hard the truth is some humans are incapable of unconditional love. Its just something they can't wrap their heads around and probably not their fault.

love is a microcosmic evolution within us. our expression and the love we project feeds the collective. the moment we begin to understand this our world begins to open.

[Diva]

I have only known 1 person in my life who could love ANYone unconditionally.....that was my Mother.

I should BE so wise.

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by key

This is a topic I wrestle with daily.

This question of unconditional love, especially in regards to family members.
all we ever do for one another? Is there ever such a thing as unconditional love...really?

yes i feel there is and its not "i will love you if you love me" or "if you do this for me i will do that for you"..............its when you love someone regardless of what they are, what they do or say - even when they dont love or are mean to you. It doesnt necessarily mean you like them, but the love is there anyway. Its often this way with your children, sometimes you really dont like the things they do or agree with them but you love em anyway.

.............so i feel to love unconditionally is to give love without expecting it in return..............