"Stud" versus "Butch"

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Sad truth is, that POC aren't running to join BFP or they aren't willing to share their experiences and culture and words they use because of stuff like this. The last You Tube that was posted as a I'm not really sure why is certainly not going to feel welcoming to folks who do identify as these cultural terms. It just isn't. The shame on you for not taking time to educate us more thing gets old. I know I get tired of it, because frankly QoS, we have come in here and helped define, explain and put out there what Studs. Aggressives. Macha culture is. It took one You Tube from some kid from Santa Barbara of all places to turn this back into give the white folk a break, why aren't you educating them. That girl on that video isn't going to be educated, she said it herself, it's how she sees it and fuck the rest of ya'll if you disagree.


What's the point in putting in a shit ton of time explaining over and over what the terms are and the cultural back ground when all of a sudden some white kid comes in and spews all kinds of shit and now we have to stop, educate, and take a step back because she's 18 and young?


That girl isn't going to make room for me as a Woman of Color in the world, why am I having to for her, a person I don't even know, a person like all the other persons out in the real world that I am having to make room for because they aren't educated on cultural terms, people, lives.


That's where I am coming from as in do your damn homework on your own, it's really a waste of time to even type it out because people just don't.


Nobody educated me on other peoples, I took the time and I educated myself on how to maneuver around all the other cultures around me at all times.

Thank you for sharing all of this, and I know it's come up in many threads before. I want to be very clear about one thing though - I am not coming from a "shame on you" place, *at all*. I get what you're saying - frankly there were times I felt the same way about educating people about the queer community, it can be exhausting. But what I'm afraid of is that if we *don't* step up and take the opportunity to educate someone who is asking for answers, he or she will get their "education" from people like we saw in that fucked up video. I agree that some people can never be freed from their ignorance, no matter how hard you try, but there are clearly others who really do want to understand, and I just hate to see those opportunities wasted. I'm not saying we should spoon feed all of the information, but we can at least provide some resources and be a resource ourselves.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

Thank you for sharing all of this, and I know it's come up in many threads before. I want to be very clear about one thing though - I am not coming from a "shame on you" place, *at all*. I get what you're saying - frankly there were times I felt the same way about educating people about the queer community, it can be exhausting. But what I'm afraid of is that if we *don't* step up and take the opportunity to educate someone who is asking for answers, he or she will get their "education" from people like we saw in that fucked up video. I agree that some people can never be freed from their ignorance, no matter how hard you try, but there are clearly others who really do want to understand, and I just hate to see those opportunities wasted. I'm not saying we should spoon feed all of the information, but we can at least provide some resources and be a resource ourselves.

QoS there were plenty of posts that were educational for the OP, she even stated so. The last You Tube video wasn't conducive to the conversation that had been had.

All it did was stir up up shit. Then when there was a WTF response by me I was taken to task for reacting in the manner I did, mind you I was not the ONLY one that was like WTF, yet I am the one singled out because of my WTF matter of fact I got accused of bullying.

So at this point it's tiring to continue to have to put in any more effort, because every fucking time I do someone, somewhere, and they are generally white come an tell me I am to LOUD, TO AGGRESSIVE, I'm a BULLY it goes on and on and on.


I don't care how the convo goes now, it isn't like anyone is going to listen anyway to what Stud, Aggressives, Machas are.

It's obvious.

I'm not as patient as you

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

QoS there were plenty of posts that were educational for the OP, she even stated so.

I agree, and that is sort of what my point was. There WERE posts (replies to her question) that helped to educate her; I'm all for that.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

The last You Tube video wasn't conducive to the conversation that had been had.

Agreed, although I think it *could have* had some value to the discussion if there had been some narrative to go along with it from the poster, like "And then we have this kind of crap.... obviously this girl needs some education on the larger GLBTQ community!" It could have been used as an example of what goes wrong when people are NOT educated.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

All it did was stir up up shit. Then when there was a WTF response by me I was taken to task for reacting in the manner I did, mind you I was not the ONLY one that was like WTF, yet I am the one singled out because of my WTF matter of fact I got accused of bullying

So at this point it's tiring to continue to have to put in any more effort, because every fucking time I do someone, somewhere, and they are generally white come an tell me I am to LOUD, TO AGGRESSIVE, I'm a BULLY it goes on and on and on.

Trust me, as someone who has gotten her fair share of "you're a bitch" because I speak my mind, I know it gets old, and it can derail us from saying what we really want to say.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't care how the convo goes now, it isn't like anyone is going to listen anyway to what Stud, Aggressives, Machas are. It's obvious.

I disagree. I think people are listening/reading, and I think your contributions to the thread were received in different ways by different people - that's par for the course, but I still think it's valuable.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I'm not as patient as you

You caught me on a good day

[Martina]

Cultural appropriation happens no matter how we feel about it. We can get institutions to change the names of their sports teams, but we can't change the way young people talk.

People have always appropriated the African American culture. Some African-American kids push back. There was a BIG argument in my class once between, in this case, Latinos and African-Americans about the use of the n-word. Partly because it is such a nasty pejorative. But also because it's an appropriation. African-American kids were saying why do you have to try to sound like us. Latino kids were saying, we aren't. We sound like us.

One Latino kid acknowledged that it was an appropriation and added he had never seen African American kids adopt the words, music or fashion of Latinos (I have), but that Latinos did it all the time. He had internalized this as Latino cultures being backward and unworthy of appropriation ( ). It was an interesting conversation. Anyway kids are aware they are appropriating all the time and have different feelings about it.

I do think that white people need to be more careful, but it's nearly impossible to police the language, clothing, music, and well. . . just the behavior of teenagers.

I take the girl in the video seriously as a lesbian. I don't discredit her as a queer. As a white person, I wish she at least acknowledged that the term was taken from other cultures, that she and her friends are white and are using it the way they do. But in a way that's self-evident.

Is she an obnoxious privileged white girl? For sure. Is she also using language and living as queer in a completely real and authentic way for her? Without a doubt.

[julieisafemme]

She did acknowledge that the term stud was used to describe African American lesbians who were masculine. Then she described how she viewed the term. She seemed to be quite aware that people had a problem with the way she used the terms and was quite clear she did not care. It seemed to be why she made the video in the first place.

That is what bothered me about it.

Originally Posted by Martina

Cultural appropriation happens no matter how we feel about it. We can get institutions to change the names of their sports teams, but we can't change the way young people talk.

People have always appropriated the African American culture. Some African-American kids push back. There was a BIG argument in my class once between, in this case, Latinos and African-Americans about the use of the n-word. Partly because it is such a nasty pejorative. But also because it's an appropriation. African-American kids were saying why do you have to try to sound like us. Latino kids were saying, we aren't. We sound like us.

One Latino kid acknowledged that it was an appropriation and added he had never seen African American kids adopt the words, music or fashion of Latinos (I have), but that Latinos did it all the time. He had internalized this as Latino cultures being backward and unworthy of appropriation ( ). It was an interesting conversation. Anyway kids are aware they are appropriating all the time and have different feelings about it.

I do think that white people need to be more careful, but it's nearly impossible to police the language, clothing, music, and well. . . just the behavior of teenagers.

I take the girl in the video seriously as a lesbian. I don't discredit her as a queer. As a white person, I wish she at least acknowledged that the term was taken from other cultures, that she and her friends are white and are using it the way they do. But in a way that's self-evident.

Is she an obnoxious privileged white girl? For sure. Is she also using language and living as queer in a completely real and authentic way for her? Without a doubt.

[Martina]

Ah. Explains the defensiveness. I can see your point.

[Electrocell]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

She did acknowledge that the term stud was used to describe African American lesbians who were masculine. Then she described how she viewed the term. She seemed to be quite aware that people had a problem with the way she used the terms and was quite clear she did not care. It seemed to be why she made the video in the first place.

That is what bothered me about it.

This pompous young lady did this on youtube meaning you can go click the like or dislike button so maybe by clicking the dislike button she might get the message that what she said isn't acceptable or leave a comment on it . If there is enough negative feedback maybe then it will be removed.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

This pompous young lady did this on youtube meaning you can go click the like or dislike button so maybe by clicking the dislike button she might get the message that what she said isn't acceptable or leave a comment on it . If there is enough negative feedback maybe then it will be removed.

I wish I had that much faith in YouTube. I reported the video my kid watched and left a comment and disliked it and nothing happened.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

She did acknowledge that the term stud was used to describe African American lesbians who were masculine. Then she described how she viewed the term. She seemed to be quite aware that people had a problem with the way she used the terms and was quite clear she did not care. It seemed to be why she made the video in the first place.

That is what bothered me about it.

Me too. One clue was the *don't tell me i'm wrong* over and over.

To me that's a clear message that they are not willing to learn. A total F-you to the rest of the world who find her words offensive and hurtful.

And it's not just the gal in the video.

i used to deny my white privilege because i grew up with and have mixed race family. That doesn't excuse me.

[Julien]

I've been reading the thread and I wanted to voice my perspective on education. Education is my business in that I teach LGBT Studies and Women's Studies. It has been my experience that people new to Feminism and/or being LGBT want to absorb it so quickly and can come off being offensive at times for the lack of knowledge they have about themselves and the topic. It is also possible for those of us in the know are still learning. I know I am learning every day and that is a good thing because I am not standing still but growing in knowledge and understanding of myself. For those who want to learn, it is their eagerness I respect. I enjoy teaching those who want to learn and find it fulfilling to see them grow in their confidence and knowledge. However, there is another side who I don't teach directly because they never want to learn about us. All I can do is "teach" by being who I am and maybe, possibly they can learn from that. We cannot reach those who don't want to learn and I believe it is up to us to teach the ones that do. Of course it all comes to who wants to do what and how far we want to go in that giving of knowledge. This is a very individual task to take on. For the discussion, I too have gone to the internet and to books to gain as much knowledge as I can, but it is also so very helpful to gain real life experience from my community and that is invaluable. I appreciate the cautious steps as much as those who go in with both feet, as someone wrote, because it illustrates to me their need for knowledge and who am I to deny it when I have the tools and the want to teach. It is what I do.