"Stud" versus "Butch"

Reader · 11-10-2012, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Ohhhhh I didnt realize thay had another term for white privilege now...thanks for updating us on this sillyish point you are trying to make...read loud and clear.

With all due respect, wb, do you really believe that what I posted has anything at all to do with white privilege?

And why do you assume I am WHITE?

weatherboi · 11-10-2012, 11:28 AM

Did I say you were white??? Where?? I am talking about the video and peoples defense of the girl in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reader

With all due respect, wb, do you really believe that what I posted has anything at all to do with white privilege?

And why do you assume I am WHITE?

Reader · 11-10-2012, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Did I say you were white??? Where?? I am talking about the video and peoples defense of the girl in it.

But, seriously, I want to know where in my post it implies or references anything about white privilege? I am not asking you this because I wish to engage in fighting with you or annoying you. I actually want to know.

weatherboi · 11-10-2012, 11:37 AM

I am clear on the 100th monkey effect when we are speaking of large groups of people but I don't see it applying here culturally. I was pointing white privilege to what the conversation was speaking of before not your scientific deflection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reader

But, seriously, I want to know where in my post it implies or references anything about white privilege? I am not asking you this because I wish to engage in fighting with you or annoying you. I actually want to know.

Reader · 11-10-2012, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I am clear on the 100th monkey effect when we are speaking of large groups of people but I don't see it applying here culturally. I was pointing white privilege to what the conversation was speaking of before not your scientific deflection.

Ah. I see. Thanks for explaining that.

apretty · 11-11-2012, 02:12 PM

Are you saying that you're NOT WHITE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reader

With all due respect, wb, do you really believe that what I posted has anything at all to do with white privilege?

And why do you assume I am WHITE?

Martina · 11-11-2012, 02:41 PM

OK another white person talking about her impressions of stud. Seems kinda weird and off-putting to be doing this. But here goes.

Where I used to live, the studs closer in age to me would often have manicured nails or earrings or do their hair in ways that were more feminine. But I'd also seem them wearing men's suits and hats. They tended to dress more like that when they were going out with their girlfriends. In my generation, most of the studs were very comfortable presenting themselves as masculine and feminine at the same time, sometimes more one than the other depending on the day.

Where I lived and worked for a few years -- in CA -- it seemed to me that the younger women more consistently presented as masculine. However, most of them used names or nicknames that ID'd them as female and used female pronouns.

I am not sure that this has ANYTHING to do with the stud ID. I think it has more to do with the fact that many African Americans do butch or stud differently.

This is also from back in the day. My experience and from friends who have talked to me about it is that it was disrespectful for a stud not to be treated as the dominant partner in public, but that in private, whatever works in your bed or relationship is fine. I am talking outside of a leather context.

Stud does feel different to me, but not less or more masculine. Just different. It feels -- and this is me, me, me -- like people have had less of a struggle with it as an ID. I wonder if that is because it was more accepted and known among straight and gay African American people than butch is among gay and straight white people. I don't know.

African Americans traditionally have polled as against gay marriage etc. But my impression is that there is a certain lack of surprise bordering on tolerance re lesbian relationships. Gay male relationships get more criticism, as always.

Martina · 11-11-2012, 03:53 PM

One of my former students was a self-ID'd stud. Her girlfriend was a femme. She had had previous girlfriends -- all straight. She was the first woman each had been with. Anyway, my student's mind was a little blown by the femme girlfriend. Femmes were different from straight girls, she told me (not knowing that she was talking to a femme. lol). Anyway, as she described it, the femme girlfriend was almost too confident. She knew what she wanted in and out of bed, and was, in general, a proud lesbian. They stayed together, however. I think the student just had to adjust to the ways of the new girlfriend.

Anyway, to this student -- before she met her femme girlfriend -- lesbians were studs. From her point of view, the women they fucked were NOT by definition lesbian. They were most often not. They were straight or possibly bisexual. They were girls who couldn't resist the charms of a stud lover.

I had another student, well before the other's time, who ID'd as bisexual She is feminine and at that time was a pimp. She turned her girlfriends out. She took care of them when they got arrested or pregnant, but she was a pimp. Her theory was that feminine women slept with other women because women know how to sexually please other women. In her mind, if you presented as feminine, you were probably not a lesbian. Studs were lesbians. Feminine women might be bisexual, as she was, but were more likely straight and just liked sex with women because men were inept by comparison.

I have no idea how common these attitudes are among young African American women in Richmond or anywhere else. But talk about femme invisibility.

11-11-2012, 02:41 PM	#7
Martina Senior Member How Do You Identify?: * Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: * Posts: 4,999 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,409 Thanked 18,286 Times in 4,167 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	OK another white person talking about her impressions of stud. Seems kinda weird and off-putting to be doing this. But here goes. Where I used to live, the studs closer in age to me would often have manicured nails or earrings or do their hair in ways that were more feminine. But I'd also seem them wearing men's suits and hats. They tended to dress more like that when they were going out with their girlfriends. In my generation, most of the studs were very comfortable presenting themselves as masculine and feminine at the same time, sometimes more one than the other depending on the day. Where I lived and worked for a few years -- in CA -- it seemed to me that the younger women more consistently presented as masculine. However, most of them used names or nicknames that ID'd them as female and used female pronouns. I am not sure that this has ANYTHING to do with the stud ID. I think it has more to do with the fact that many African Americans do butch or stud differently. This is also from back in the day. My experience and from friends who have talked to me about it is that it was disrespectful for a stud not to be treated as the dominant partner in public, but that in private, whatever works in your bed or relationship is fine. I am talking outside of a leather context. Stud does feel different to me, but not less or more masculine. Just different. It feels -- and this is me, me, me -- like people have had less of a struggle with it as an ID. I wonder if that is because it was more accepted and known among straight and gay African American people than butch is among gay and straight white people. I don't know. African Americans traditionally have polled as against gay marriage etc. But my impression is that there is a certain lack of surprise bordering on tolerance re lesbian relationships. Gay male relationships get more criticism, as always.

11-11-2012, 03:53 PM	#8
Martina Senior Member How Do You Identify?: * Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: * Posts: 4,999 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,409 Thanked 18,286 Times in 4,167 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	One of my former students was a self-ID'd stud. Her girlfriend was a femme. She had had previous girlfriends -- all straight. She was the first woman each had been with. Anyway, my student's mind was a little blown by the femme girlfriend. Femmes were different from straight girls, she told me (not knowing that she was talking to a femme. lol). Anyway, as she described it, the femme girlfriend was almost too confident. She knew what she wanted in and out of bed, and was, in general, a proud lesbian. They stayed together, however. I think the student just had to adjust to the ways of the new girlfriend. Anyway, to this student -- before she met her femme girlfriend -- lesbians were studs. From her point of view, the women they fucked were NOT by definition lesbian. They were most often not. They were straight or possibly bisexual. They were girls who couldn't resist the charms of a stud lover. I had another student, well before the other's time, who ID'd as bisexual She is feminine and at that time was a pimp. She turned her girlfriends out. She took care of them when they got arrested or pregnant, but she was a pimp. Her theory was that feminine women slept with other women because women know how to sexually please other women. In her mind, if you presented as feminine, you were probably not a lesbian. Studs were lesbians. Feminine women might be bisexual, as she was, but were more likely straight and just liked sex with women because men were inept by comparison. I have no idea how common these attitudes are among young African American women in Richmond or anywhere else. But talk about femme invisibility.