"Stud" versus "Butch"

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Girl_On_Fire

Not everybody learns that way though, Corkey. In my style of learning, for example, I learn much better by interaction with others rather than reading text. This could possibly be because I'm extremely right-brained but I do not readily absorb information unless it's presented to me in a creative way. That's just my learning style, it has nothing to do with laziness or not caring.

Never said either you were lazy or non caring. It isn't up to me to educate the masses, nor is it up to POC to educate the masses. I think if folks are interested it is up to them to educate themselves. And with this I am done. Have a good evening.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Never said either you were lazy or non caring. It isn't up to me to educate the masses, nor is it up to POC to educate the masses. I think if folks are interested it is up to them to educate themselves. And with this I am done. Have a good evening.

And I never said you implied I was lazy. However, from your (and others) suggestion that people need to "educate themselves", it makes it seem as though you are implying laziness or not caring on the part of anyone who would reach out to others for answers versus learning on their own. I cannot do that very successfully and I'm sure I'm not alone. Reaching out to patient others who are willing to see and understand my genuine confusion and ignorance are really the only people whom I can safely and successfully learn from.

I didn't mean to start anything serious by asking this question but I'm glad it turned into a serious discussion. I've lead an incredibly sheltered life (and not good sheltered, more like ignored/dismissed/abused sheltered so please don't read privileged into that because I've worked hard for every scrap of knowledge I've ever managed to pull from people because I have a developmental/learning disorder.)

My point is, everybody comes from a different place and has a different story. It's not what others do or say or believe, to me, it's how you respond to them. If anybody thinks someone is being a jerk or rude or lazy or trying to start something because they ask a question, then that is their perception. This is a big pet peeve of mine because I've been chronically dismissed since childhood for asking what I believed (and still believe) to be innocent questions while trying to learn about the world around me. While that's my own personal issue and has nothing to do with you or this discussion, it's important to keep in mind that everybody's brain works differently and their experiences shape how they view the world. They may truly not at all understand your response to their question or confusion and a more sensitive person may run away and burrow deeper into their own solitude for fear of other's reactions to them.

Thankfully, a bit of age and wisdom has taught me not to run and hide, but to explain and discuss as rationally as my current emotions allow in any given situation.

[Corkey]

Not interested. Thanks but I've had my say. I will not be pulled back in.

[aishah]

sorry, i was away for the last two days w/no internet or i would have jumped in...i'm super grateful for folks' posts, especially snow, corkey, and chino. snow already said all there is to be said on the subject of education. apparently it needs repeating, though.

i just wanted to address, re: "being a resource" - i like being a resource for people. i love teaching (and for that matter learning). i love being able to give people information and links. i also take on that role professionally a lot when doing accessibility work - coordinating people and resources.

but too often women, esp poc, and indigenous folks are expected to "be resources" - well, you know what happens to resources? resources get USED UP and commodified and misused and appropriated and stolen and wasted. particularly used up.

i'm a human being, not a resource.

in my opinion at least as an indigenous woman who's been stuck in the resource position (and sometimes chosen it, too), expecting people - especially marginalized folks - to be a resource is dehumanizing. (in addition to the learning issues.) because not only do we have to be a resource for the new white lesbian girls but we also have to be experts on how to assimilate to white culture without completely being destroyed (and the experts on everything white culture in general), plus, you know, have lives and stuff too.

[Reader]

I tried to read this whole thread, but I just cannot and do not want to wade through it any further than I did.

This thread is a perfect example of the cannibalization that goes on in our community.

It's like the operation was a success, but the patient died.

What the hell happened to "Sisterhood is Powerful"?

Was the revolution a success, yet the sisterhood died?

Bleh.

[aishah]

the "sisterhood" hasn't often been a place of power and safety and community for indigenous women and women of color. sometimes it's come at our expense. i for one thought the fact that snow got called a bully again for adding to the conversation by sharing what it's like for her to deal with racism on a daily basis again was pretty cannibalizing.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by aishah

... expecting people - especially marginalized folks - to be a resource is dehumanizing. ...

I don't *expect* anyone to be a resource for me, but it sure is nice when they *agree* to be one.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

I don't *expect* anyone to be a resource for me, but it sure is nice when they *agree* to be one.

perhaps the word "expect" was the wrong word to use.

to me, the resource dynamic is extremely problematic.

[Glenn]

Originally Posted by aishah

perhaps the word "expect" was the wrong word to use.

to me, the resource dynamic is extremely problematic.

Ah! No It was the perfect word because that is where the beginning of exploitation always occurs. The stud has always been a freak of nature, beyond time, the traditions of men, and culture.

[julieisafemme]

What I have learned as a white person is that sometimes it is painful and hurtful for people of color to hear white people process their questions and feelings. That is the privilege we have. So it is helpful for us to read or talk to other white people who might know more than we do. Asking questions is fine but sometimes we have to understand that people might not want to answer. That is their right.

I totally understand what you are saying about having trouble learning that way. I also have a very difficult time understanding things in writing. I have to read things over and over to understand. I do understand though that it is not other's responsibility to help me deal with my different way of learning.

Originally Posted by Girl_On_Fire

And I never said you implied I was lazy. However, from your (and others) suggestion that people need to "educate themselves", it makes it seem as though you are implying laziness or not caring on the part of anyone who would reach out to others for answers versus learning on their own. I cannot do that very successfully and I'm sure I'm not alone. Reaching out to patient others who are willing to see and understand my genuine confusion and ignorance are really the only people whom I can safely and successfully learn from.

I didn't mean to start anything serious by asking this question but I'm glad it turned into a serious discussion. I've lead an incredibly sheltered life (and not good sheltered, more like ignored/dismissed/abused sheltered so please don't read privileged into that because I've worked hard for every scrap of knowledge I've ever managed to pull from people because I have a developmental/learning disorder.)

My point is, everybody comes from a different place and has a different story. It's not what others do or say or believe, to me, it's how you respond to them. If anybody thinks someone is being a jerk or rude or lazy or trying to start something because they ask a question, then that is their perception. This is a big pet peeve of mine because I've been chronically dismissed since childhood for asking what I believed (and still believe) to be innocent questions while trying to learn about the world around me. While that's my own personal issue and has nothing to do with you or this discussion, it's important to keep in mind that everybody's brain works differently and their experiences shape how they view the world. They may truly not at all understand your response to their question or confusion and a more sensitive person may run away and burrow deeper into their own solitude for fear of other's reactions to them.

Thankfully, a bit of age and wisdom has taught me not to run and hide, but to explain and discuss as rationally as my current emotions allow in any given situation.

[pinkgeek]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I also have a very difficult time understanding things in writing. I have to read things over and over to understand. I do understand though that it is not other's responsibility to help me deal with my different way of learning.

(Juliesafemme - not picking on you, just using this as a jumping off point.)

I do agree some people don't learn best by reading - my more handsome half certainly doesn't - what I will say is that a lot of information on a wide variety of subjects is available for free on video, audio and alternative formats for learning. Being able to discern a video etc. is of merit is fairly easy.

In my experience "I don't learn by reading" (while it may be true) is an excuse that skirts around the fact that aishah, Snow and others have the confidence to say (more than once) out loud that they aren't the bottomless well of cultural knowledge society expects them to be.

I'm not playing holier than thou; cultural competency is a difficult topic. For me part of unpacking white privilege is to be able to listen, see, read, hear what POC have to say without the "but" that is so common to contemporary culture.

[julieisafemme]

Exactly. Which is why I posted that. No one is responsible for how I learn. When I first was told, quite clearly, that my questions were hurtful I took the suggestion to watch Tim Wise. Then I got his books and then I went to see him speak in person. That helped me enormously. That was a space where my questions and fumblings were ok.

Originally Posted by pinkgeek

(Juliesafemme - not picking on you, just using this as a jumping off point.)

I do agree some people don't learn best by reading - my more handsome half certainly doesn't - what I will say is that a lot of information on a wide variety of subjects is available for free on video, audio and alternative formats for learning. Being able to discern a video etc. is of merit is fairly easy.

In my experience "I don't learn by reading" (while it may be true) is an excuse that skirts around the fact that aishah, Snow and others have the confidence to say (more than once) out loud that they aren't the bottomless well of cultural knowledge society expects them to be.

I'm not playing holier than thou; cultural competency is a difficult topic. For me part of unpacking white privilege is to be able to listen, see, read, hear what POC have to say without the "but" that is so common to contemporary culture.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by pinkgeek

(Juliesafemme - not picking on you, just using this as a jumping off point.)

I do agree some people don't learn best by reading - my more handsome half certainly doesn't - what I will say is that a lot of information on a wide variety of subjects is available for free on video, audio and alternative formats for learning. Being able to discern a video etc. is of merit is fairly easy.

In my experience "I don't learn by reading" (while it may be true) is an excuse that skirts around the fact that aishah, Snow and others have the confidence to say (more than once) out loud that they aren't the bottomless well of cultural knowledge society expects them to be.

I'm not playing holier than thou; cultural competency is a difficult topic. For me part of unpacking white privilege is to be able to listen, see, read, hear what POC have to say without the "but" that is so common to contemporary culture.

The only issue I have with this is it takes away from the sense of community. Maybe I'm not understanding something socially about how people come together on forums. (Wouldn't be the first time.) However, if I saw somebody start a thread asking a question, and I didn't want to be a resource, I'd just avoid the thread. Therefore I wouldn't have to be a resource and would have no reason to be upset about having been asked to be one. To me, starting a thread in a forum filled with hundreds or thousands of different people does not ask a direct question of one person. It is simply that: A question. Anyone can choose to (or not to) respond.

[Runner]

Just wanted to add I think this thread had some purpose until that ridiculous video was added - seriously cannot understand what relevance the ramblings of a random student had to the original thread and the posters intent on adding it?

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by Runner

Just wanted to add I think this thread had some purpose until that ridiculous video was added - seriously cannot understand what relevance the ramblings of a random student had to the original thread and the posters intent on adding it?

As icky as it was to see it, there is that door of knowledge to pull from
it...in that it is a sobering image of the vast difference in perspectives
on Studs and the like, and this one happened upon us as one
that a White person took the time to record and share.

To Me, even the many degrees of ignorance should be a part of
ones bank of knowledge. When I see shit like that, it reminds
me there is still much to be taught...and I have personally
fancied the thought how wondrous it would be if there
were more panel discussions available to
folks, both inter-generational
and interracial.


Now I've rambled.
Big surprise.