Masculine of Center -- the term

DapperButch · 01-16-2013, 09:27 PM

I still have no real clue what this word means. I found this defintion on the Brown Boi Project website: http://www.brownboiproject.org/mission_core_values.html

"Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum�including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008) "

Ok, so why isn't just the word masculine used? Meaning, the definition of the term is people that "tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum". So, why would people not just use the word masculine to describe themselves if that is the definition of the term "masculine of center"?

It makes absolutely no sense to me. Is it a way to pull butch, stud, etc, together as a group? If so, why not just call that masculine identities or something? Why make up a whole new term? What am I missing?

Martina · 01-16-2013, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Is it a way to pull butch, stud, etc, together as a group? If so, why not just call that masculine identities or something? Why make up a whole new term? What am I missing?

I think that is it. Like queer has been used. An umbrella term. A lot of butch women were PISSED though. I think they felt that the term butch was being displaced even though none pretended that butch accounts for trans folk, some studs, genderqueer etc.

At the very least, I think they felt like butch was losing some status. That was my sense.

I am speaking for others, but whatever. People can call me on it, and I'll be fine with that.

But other butch women did not appreciate having the masculine part of who they are foregrounded. Butch is an idea that includes woman historically. Masculine of center, no. It's not intended to. I think politically it was tied up with objections to the Butch Voices organization. But that stuff is unknown to me.

The term itself is what I am interested in.

And I put in the red zone because I thought it might get heated, but probably not.

As a femme and a woman, if someone wanted to use feminine of center as an umbrella term, I wouldn't like it. Nothing to do with men who ID as feminine or being included with straight women. I just don't like the idea of femininity being foregrounded. I don't like the center idea. I am more feminine than some folks and less feminine than others. But why should I even be thinking of that re my identity? It may be a starting place. Or part of the puzzle. But wow to making it the naming principal. Uh no.

DapperButch · 01-17-2013, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina

I think that is it. Like queer has been used. An umbrella term. A lot of butch women were PISSED though. I think they felt that the term butch was being displaced even though none pretended that butch accounts for trans folk, some studs, genderqueer etc.

At the very least, I think they felt like butch was losing some status. That was my sense.

I am speaking for others, but whatever. People can call me on it, and I'll be fine with that.

But other butch women did not appreciate having the masculine part of who they are foregrounded. Butch is an idea that includes woman historically. Masculine of center, no. It's not intended to. I think politically it was tied up with objections to the Butch Voices organization. But that stuff is unknown to me.

The term itself is what I am interested in.

And I put in the red zone because I thought it might get heated, but probably not.

As a femme and a woman, if someone wanted to use feminine of center as an umbrella term, I wouldn't like it. Nothing to do with men who ID as feminine or being included with straight women. I just don't like the idea of femininity being foregrounded. I don't like the center idea. I am more feminine than some folks and less feminine than others. But why should I even be thinking of that re my identity? It may be a starting place. Or part of the puzzle. But wow to making it the naming principal. Uh no.

Got it! Makes sense...the whole naming principle...it being the guiding part of the definition of an identity may bother some...and you are suggesting more likely butch women than other masculine identities (I too saw the evidence that it bothered this identity more than others). Thanks!

Boots13 · 01-17-2013, 07:46 AM

This came up in a conversation yesterday...interesting that I've spent so much time in my life just "being" and now I'm a being using dangerous and marginalized terms in an effort to describe a jumping off point about being me.

I have always said "I am me" . I know internally where and who I am, but in order for the world to know, and in order for me to be able to parlay verbally my 'orientations' and proclivities I utilize words that describe a jumping off point, a baseline, a point of easy though perhaps inhospitable (?) recognition so that I can then direct this trajectory to define ME, to start a trajectory AWAY FROM CENTER that describes who I am. Though I have not used the term masculine of center (what is center?) I do start conversations from a recognizable waypoint (center?) .

And there is my conundrum, who recognizes center? Is it mainstream? That smacks of patriarchal archetype. Is it working class that recognizes "center"? I struggle for words to start an association. I build a box, only to break out of it. Thats what we do, isnt it? DisAssociate ourselves from center as we vector ourselves through recognized (though not necessarily accepted) definitions and identifications.

Is that restrictive? Or a jumping off point to further build upon what we already know...masculine of center. The more I read and say the words masculine of center, the more offensive it feels...I think its the "center" part.
So whats the alternative in this Brave New World? If not masculine of center what words do we use in an effort to verbally project our departure from an exclusionary, elitist, patriarchal "normal" called center ?

GREAT thread, thank you for starting it.

Dude · 01-17-2013, 08:52 AM

how do femmes feel about

Feminine of center?

this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world
my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters?

drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to
sleep with. Although , there was this one

I nearly followed home , way back in the day.

too muddy for my taste

people Know what butch is

so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been?

no thank you

starryeyes · 01-17-2013, 09:46 AM

Feminine of center is a definite no-go for me. It lacks an identity, as you stated in your post. Femme is in every fiber of my being. Taking that away is not an option. I can relate to what others are feeling about "masculine of center".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dude

how do femmes feel about

Feminine of center?

this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world
my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters?

drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to
sleep with. Although , there was this one

I nearly followed home , way back in the day.

too muddy for my taste

people Know what butch is

so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been?

no thank you

nowandthen · 01-17-2013, 03:52 PM

I am involved in these conversations in many places and in my own life. When I first heard the term MoC I too was "What center" but then I had more than one conversation in-person and on-line. I agree that for me it is not a umbrella term, but I do agree that it is a identity many I know use. I looked up the history of the term Butch and below is one example.

"Prior to the middle of the 20th century in Western culture, homosexual societies were mostly underground or secret, which makes it difficult to determine how long butch and femme roles have been practiced by women. Photographs exist of butch-femme couples in the decade of 1910–1920 in the United States; they were then called "transvestites""

All the terms we have come to know or use for ourselves come out of a medical industry supporting difference through bad science. They come from a White Eurocentric Heteronormative relationship to bodies and the need to gender and define those bodies and identities for markers to police.

One of the struggles that we all come back to is the lack of language and the attachment to what is already in the lexicon. We will never all come into agreement in my life time, but the power to name is fundamental to self, class and race always impact the relationship to power and naming. An example is the letters LGBT , I write them TBLG why, because the LGBT Power/Money players do not have any authority in my life. No one is in-charge, yet money and power seem to give folks the ability to say who and what community is and those of us outside of that fight for visibility. I am not pro-assimilation, I am a prison abolitionist, I am not a morning person, I am white, queer and masculine only because of the need for others comfort, because when I say masculine or butch it is and will never the same as someone else.

I was at the community meeting at the last BV, I participated because difference should not mean to discount, judge, or name others. This is hard and painful work for me and the communities I move in. I have an intimate relationship with the pain of being a body marked as Butch by lesbians and the larger world. What is painful is the knowledge that I was told more times than I can count that how I looked was not dyke, If I wanted a man I date a man, the 70's-90's brought us more clarity on the body, sex, and identity so yes the expansion of knowledge allows for change, I for one have a hard time with change, I know that those naming themselves MoC have no more legitimacy than those called butch to the process of naming others. So maybe the work is to name ourselves and give others the same right.

The_Lady_Snow · 01-17-2013, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dude

how do femmes feel about

Feminine of center?

this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world
my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters?

drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to
sleep with. Although , there was this one

I nearly followed home , way back in the day.

too muddy for my taste

people Know what butch is

so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been?

no thank you

I personally do not care nor like that Dude, here is why:

It will create a heirarchy amongst Women, there are already enough ridiculous expectations on what defines feminine. Plus we all know sometimes feminine is born into a male bodied Woman.

So for *me* I wouldn't care for it, I certainly would NOT attend any kind of Femme Conference if all of a sudden someone decided to change the wording or add Feminine of Center.

*I* feel that's how BV pushed butch women and their voices out.

That's just my feeling on it which by the way is not up for argument.

aishah · 01-17-2013, 05:23 PM

feminine-of-center is a pretty common term in the femme of color circles i run in, used similarly to masculine-of-center. i view it as an umbrella term, not necessarily an identity (most masculine-of-center folks don't -id- as moc, they id as stud, butch, aggressive, etc.). i understand that it is problematic because it can reinforce the gender binary. at the same time, i think in some communities these designations are helpful for some people. in queer communities where folks identify with queer masculinity, sometimes masculine of center can be helpful (likewise with feminine of center - in my circles this is inclusive of cis femmes, trans women, femme men, gq femmes, etc.). and also can be a useful contrast to androgynous or genderqueer (although some gq folks also identify as butch or femme. not all do). i know plenty of masculine-of-center folks who identify as women. and i know some feminine-of-center folks who identify as men. personally, i'm ambivalent. i use the term if i am trying to communicate something specific in a group where it's commonly understood...otherwise i really don't use it that much.

also i think it is interesting, given that this term was coined by members of the brown boi project and is primarily used by black studs and butches, that people who are not in those communities are saying they don't want it to apply to them and they think it's wrong. if you don't want it to apply to you and you think it's wrong...don't use it???

macele · 01-16-2013, 10:00 PM

well, my center is not masculine. i am butch, indeed. but not the center of my being. that is way more personal, much deeper than butch or moc. that's how i see it. sure, i own the energy, ... but it's not my center.

i really don't know anything about the word, ... why it was "invented". somebody felt the need to have it, ... so there you go!

01-16-2013, 09:27 PM	#1
DapperButch Roadster Guy How Do You Identify?: FTM, Stone Butch Preferred Pronoun?: He Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northeast Posts: 7,745 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 26,545 Thanked 26,814 Times in 5,772 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	I still have no real clue what this word means. I found this defintion on the Brown Boi Project website: http://www.brownboiproject.org/mission_core_values.html "Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum�including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008) " Ok, so why isn't just the word masculine used? Meaning, the definition of the term is people that "tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum". So, why would people not just use the word masculine to describe themselves if that is the definition of the term "masculine of center"? It makes absolutely no sense to me. Is it a way to pull butch, stud, etc, together as a group? If so, why not just call that masculine identities or something? Why make up a whole new term? What am I missing? __________________ -Dapper Are you educated or indoctrinated?

01-17-2013, 07:46 AM	#4
Boots13 Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: No Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: PNW Posts: 823 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,387 Thanked 2,314 Times in 428 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	Center is offensive... This came up in a conversation yesterday...interesting that I've spent so much time in my life just "being" and now I'm a being using dangerous and marginalized terms in an effort to describe a jumping off point about being me. I have always said "I am me" . I know internally where and who I am, but in order for the world to know, and in order for me to be able to parlay verbally my 'orientations' and proclivities I utilize words that describe a jumping off point, a baseline, a point of easy though perhaps inhospitable (?) recognition so that I can then direct this trajectory to define ME, to start a trajectory AWAY FROM CENTER that describes who I am. Though I have not used the term masculine of center (what is center?) I do start conversations from a recognizable waypoint (center?) . And there is my conundrum, who recognizes center? Is it mainstream? That smacks of patriarchal archetype. Is it working class that recognizes "center"? I struggle for words to start an association. I build a box, only to break out of it. Thats what we do, isnt it? DisAssociate ourselves from center as we vector ourselves through recognized (though not necessarily accepted) definitions and identifications. Is that restrictive? Or a jumping off point to further build upon what we already know...masculine of center. The more I read and say the words masculine of center, the more offensive it feels...I think its the "center" part. So whats the alternative in this Brave New World? If not masculine of center what words do we use in an effort to verbally project our departure from an exclusionary, elitist, patriarchal "normal" called center ? GREAT thread, thank you for starting it.

01-17-2013, 03:52 PM	#7
nowandthen Member How Do You Identify?: Queer Butch Preferred Pronoun?: S/he Relationship Status: In a realationship with my PhD. Dissertation work for the next 3 years Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: West Coast Posts: 508 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 400 Thanked 947 Times in 325 Posts Rep Power: 6580599	I am involved in these conversations in many places and in my own life. When I first heard the term MoC I too was "What center" but then I had more than one conversation in-person and on-line. I agree that for me it is not a umbrella term, but I do agree that it is a identity many I know use. I looked up the history of the term Butch and below is one example. "Prior to the middle of the 20th century in Western culture, homosexual societies were mostly underground or secret, which makes it difficult to determine how long butch and femme roles have been practiced by women. Photographs exist of butch-femme couples in the decade of 1910–1920 in the United States; they were then called "transvestites"" All the terms we have come to know or use for ourselves come out of a medical industry supporting difference through bad science. They come from a White Eurocentric Heteronormative relationship to bodies and the need to gender and define those bodies and identities for markers to police. One of the struggles that we all come back to is the lack of language and the attachment to what is already in the lexicon. We will never all come into agreement in my life time, but the power to name is fundamental to self, class and race always impact the relationship to power and naming. An example is the letters LGBT , I write them TBLG why, because the LGBT Power/Money players do not have any authority in my life. No one is in-charge, yet money and power seem to give folks the ability to say who and what community is and those of us outside of that fight for visibility. I am not pro-assimilation, I am a prison abolitionist, I am not a morning person, I am white, queer and masculine only because of the need for others comfort, because when I say masculine or butch it is and will never the same as someone else. I was at the community meeting at the last BV, I participated because difference should not mean to discount, judge, or name others. This is hard and painful work for me and the communities I move in. I have an intimate relationship with the pain of being a body marked as Butch by lesbians and the larger world. What is painful is the knowledge that I was told more times than I can count that how I looked was not dyke, If I wanted a man I date a man, the 70's-90's brought us more clarity on the body, sex, and identity so yes the expansion of knowledge allows for change, I for one have a hard time with change, I know that those naming themselves MoC have no more legitimacy than those called butch to the process of naming others. So maybe the work is to name ourselves and give others the same right. __________________ "Real isn't how you are made," said the Skin Horse. "It's a thing that happens to you." "Does it hurt" asked the Rabbit, "Sometimes", said the Skin Horse, for he was always honest. " It's a Kind of testing, The kind of testing that spiritual warriors need in order to awaken their Heart" PC

01-17-2013, 08:52 AM	#5
Dude Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Relationship Status: Perusing Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: exit 5 with an exit 21 goal Posts: 1,725 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 15,351 Thanked 10,605 Times in 1,477 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	how do femmes feel about Feminine of center? this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters? drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to sleep with. Although , there was this one I nearly followed home , way back in the day. too muddy for my taste people Know what butch is so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been? no thank you

01-17-2013, 05:23 PM	#9
aishah Member How Do You Identify?: queer stone femme shark baby girl Preferred Pronoun?: she, her, little one Relationship Status: dating myself. Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: dallas, tx Posts: 1,495 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,823 Thanked 6,442 Times in 1,288 Posts Rep Power: 21474851	feminine-of-center is a pretty common term in the femme of color circles i run in, used similarly to masculine-of-center. i view it as an umbrella term, not necessarily an identity (most masculine-of-center folks don't -id- as moc, they id as stud, butch, aggressive, etc.). i understand that it is problematic because it can reinforce the gender binary. at the same time, i think in some communities these designations are helpful for some people. in queer communities where folks identify with queer masculinity, sometimes masculine of center can be helpful (likewise with feminine of center - in my circles this is inclusive of cis femmes, trans women, femme men, gq femmes, etc.). and also can be a useful contrast to androgynous or genderqueer (although some gq folks also identify as butch or femme. not all do). i know plenty of masculine-of-center folks who identify as women. and i know some feminine-of-center folks who identify as men. personally, i'm ambivalent. i use the term if i am trying to communicate something specific in a group where it's commonly understood...otherwise i really don't use it that much. also i think it is interesting, given that this term was coined by members of the brown boi project and is primarily used by black studs and butches, that people who are not in those communities are saying they don't want it to apply to them and they think it's wrong. if you don't want it to apply to you and you think it's wrong...don't use it???

01-16-2013, 10:00 PM	#10
macele Member How Do You Identify?: a bold-assed maximus Preferred Pronoun?: she Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: mississippi Posts: 1,066 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,178 Thanked 3,231 Times in 847 Posts Rep Power: 21474850	well, my center is not masculine. i am butch, indeed. but not the center of my being. that is way more personal, much deeper than butch or moc. that's how i see it. sure, i own the energy, ... but it's not my center. i really don't know anything about the word, ... why it was "invented". somebody felt the need to have it, ... so there you go!