Masculine of Center -- the term

[Dude]

how do femmes feel about

Feminine of center?


this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world
my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters?

drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to
sleep with. Although , there was this one I nearly followed home , way back in the day.

too muddy for my taste

people Know what butch is

so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been?

no thank you

[starryeyes]

Feminine of center is a definite no-go for me. It lacks an identity, as you stated in your post. Femme is in every fiber of my being. Taking that away is not an option. I can relate to what others are feeling about "masculine of center".

Originally Posted by Dude

how do femmes feel about

Feminine of center?


this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world
my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters?

drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to
sleep with. Although , there was this one I nearly followed home , way back in the day.

too muddy for my taste

people Know what butch is

so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been?

no thank you

[nowandthen]

I am involved in these conversations in many places and in my own life. When I first heard the term MoC I too was "What center" but then I had more than one conversation in-person and on-line. I agree that for me it is not a umbrella term, but I do agree that it is a identity many I know use. I looked up the history of the term Butch and below is one example.

"Prior to the middle of the 20th century in Western culture, homosexual societies were mostly underground or secret, which makes it difficult to determine how long butch and femme roles have been practiced by women. Photographs exist of butch-femme couples in the decade of 1910–1920 in the United States; they were then called "transvestites""

All the terms we have come to know or use for ourselves come out of a medical industry supporting difference through bad science. They come from a White Eurocentric Heteronormative relationship to bodies and the need to gender and define those bodies and identities for markers to police.

One of the struggles that we all come back to is the lack of language and the attachment to what is already in the lexicon. We will never all come into agreement in my life time, but the power to name is fundamental to self, class and race always impact the relationship to power and naming. An example is the letters LGBT , I write them TBLG why, because the LGBT Power/Money players do not have any authority in my life. No one is in-charge, yet money and power seem to give folks the ability to say who and what community is and those of us outside of that fight for visibility. I am not pro-assimilation, I am a prison abolitionist, I am not a morning person, I am white, queer and masculine only because of the need for others comfort, because when I say masculine or butch it is and will never the same as someone else.

I was at the community meeting at the last BV, I participated because difference should not mean to discount, judge, or name others. This is hard and painful work for me and the communities I move in. I have an intimate relationship with the pain of being a body marked as Butch by lesbians and the larger world. What is painful is the knowledge that I was told more times than I can count that how I looked was not dyke, If I wanted a man I date a man, the 70's-90's brought us more clarity on the body, sex, and identity so yes the expansion of knowledge allows for change, I for one have a hard time with change, I know that those naming themselves MoC have no more legitimacy than those called butch to the process of naming others. So maybe the work is to name ourselves and give others the same right.

[Medusa]

Hmm.

Dude, I appreciate you asking about "Feminine of Center" and how that would feel to me.

In short, I don't want it.

I will tell you that Jack and I have had multiple conversations in our home about the continued expansion and redefinition of "Butch" and "Masculine of Center" feels like another piece of that expansion and redefinition.

I'm not Butch or "Masculine of Center" but the term doesn't sit all that well with me, mainly because I have huge issues with what I feel is the erasure of something super specific so that everyone's brand of "way of being" can feel included. Now, I will own that there is probably some privilege in there somewhere but, for the most part, I think that having a "center" when it comes to gender implies that there might be a baseline.
(eta: and not intending to imply that everyone shouldn't be included, but I think we don't have to remove someone else's identity so that ours can be included)

In my mind, there isnt. There may be a super patriarchal norm. There may be a historically accepted paperdoll. There is not, however, an agreed-upon center of gender in the Butch/Femme world, in the Gay world, or even in the straight world.

I get the drive to examine the labels that we've inherited. I do think there is a time when we also have to accept that some folks in our community DO accept the labels and even embrace them as "home".
That's some subversive shit!

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Hmm.

Dude, I appreciate you asking about "Feminine of Center" and how that would feel to me.

In short, I don't want it.

I will tell you that Jack and I have had multiple conversations in our home about the continued expansion and redefinition of "Butch" and "Masculine of Center" feels like another piece of that expansion and redefinition.

I'm not Butch or "Masculine of Center" but the term doesn't sit all that well with me, mainly because I have huge issues with what I feel is the erasure of something super specific so that everyone's brand of "way of being" can feel included. Now, I will own that there is probably some privilege in there somewhere but, for the most part, I think that having a "center" when it comes to gender implies that there might be a baseline.
(eta: and not intending to imply that everyone shouldn't be included, but I think we don't have to remove someone else's identity so that ours can be included)

In my mind, there isnt. There may be a super patriarchal norm. There may be a historically accepted paperdoll. There is not, however, an agreed-upon center of gender in the Butch/Femme world, in the Gay world, or even in the straight world.

I get the drive to examine the labels that we've inherited. I do think there is a time when we also have to accept that some folks in our community DO accept the labels and even embrace them as "home".
That's some subversive shit!

While I freely admit I don't get it, and the it being the word "center", I do not have an issue with anyone who may claim MoC as an identifier. It isn't up to me to police that, understand it yes, yet if this is a term someone wants to identify with, more power to them, just please enlighten me about what it means.

[macele]

i've never been just totally in like of lesbian, dyke, queer, etc. we need labels for others and ourselves. i'm older now lol. i think that's the difference for me. i'm not looking for words/labels to identify with. i'm ok with change, ... it's a must at times. i'd make a guess and say that somebody didn't like butch, ... it felt outdated to them, ... and they wanted something to connect with, new. i hope it worked. sincerely.

[Medusa]

I'd like to submit too that "mascunlinity" may not define some Butch women who view their way of being, not as "masculine", but just as a Butch brand of Feminine.

[Ginger]

yeah, I hear what Corkey and Medusa are saying in different ways, questioning what is "the center."

It's like we used to say "a spectrum" of identities, an arc, and now the ends of the arc are touching, and it's a circle. Without a "center," just has a circle has an infinite number of sides.

It's confusing, though. I often use the term, "stereotypically" male or female or "culturally defined" as male or female, masculate or feminine.

It's like I don't want to get in trouble for making myself the arbiter of where that center lies.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dude

how do femmes feel about

Feminine of center?


this would include straight women? Not femmes in my world
my grandmother, my aunts and my sisters?

drag queens? Who I fucking adore but choose not to
sleep with. Although , there was this one I nearly followed home , way back in the day.

too muddy for my taste

people Know what butch is

so lets squash that word out like lesbian and dyke have been?

no thank you

I personally do not care nor like that Dude, here is why:

It will create a heirarchy amongst Women, there are already enough ridiculous expectations on what defines feminine. Plus we all know sometimes feminine is born into a male bodied Woman.

So for *me* I wouldn't care for it, I certainly would NOT attend any kind of Femme Conference if all of a sudden someone decided to change the wording or add Feminine of Center.

*I* feel that's how BV pushed butch women and their voices out.


That's just my feeling on it which by the way is not up for argument.

[aishah]

feminine-of-center is a pretty common term in the femme of color circles i run in, used similarly to masculine-of-center. i view it as an umbrella term, not necessarily an identity (most masculine-of-center folks don't -id- as moc, they id as stud, butch, aggressive, etc.). i understand that it is problematic because it can reinforce the gender binary. at the same time, i think in some communities these designations are helpful for some people. in queer communities where folks identify with queer masculinity, sometimes masculine of center can be helpful (likewise with feminine of center - in my circles this is inclusive of cis femmes, trans women, femme men, gq femmes, etc.). and also can be a useful contrast to androgynous or genderqueer (although some gq folks also identify as butch or femme. not all do). i know plenty of masculine-of-center folks who identify as women. and i know some feminine-of-center folks who identify as men. personally, i'm ambivalent. i use the term if i am trying to communicate something specific in a group where it's commonly understood...otherwise i really don't use it that much.

also i think it is interesting, given that this term was coined by members of the brown boi project and is primarily used by black studs and butches, that people who are not in those communities are saying they don't want it to apply to them and they think it's wrong. if you don't want it to apply to you and you think it's wrong...don't use it???

[Parker]

Originally Posted by aishah

also i think it is interesting, given that this term was coined by members of the brown boi project and is primarily used by black studs and butches, that people who are not in those communities are saying they don't want it to apply to them and they think it's wrong. if you don't want it to apply to you and you think it's wrong...don't use it???

This doesnt always work when someone else uses the term for you.

For example: I dont want "he" applied to me and not only do I not use it or other male pronouns when speaking about myself, I even state my preference right over there <--- but sometimes "he" is still applied to me, regardless.

When an organization such as Butch Voices changes the verbiage in their mission statement by using "masculine of center" in an effort to create some sort of umbrella term that will not only describe ALL Butches everywhere, but will also lump a bunch of other IDs in together with Butches, that's a bunch of people labeling other people whether they want it to be applied to them or not.

For me, this isnt about Butches of color and Studs using a term that I wouldnt use to describe myself, this is about an organization using the term to describe me whether I want them to or not, whether I agree with them or not, and whether I even like the term or not.

To be frank, that feels icky.

[aishah]

butch voices' website clearly says

"What identities are under the BUTCH Voices umbrella?
Butch, Stud, Aggressive (AG), Macha, Dom, Tomboi, genderqueer, two-spirit, Trans men who identify as Masculine of Center and all other similar identities."

the first descriptor on the list is "butch." "masculine of center" is added onto a list of identities. to me, the term is self-selecting - like queer. if i hated the term queer and didn't want it used in reference to me, BUT it was commonly understood that queer spaces were inclusive of me as a same-gender-loving person and/or those spaces said "we welcome queer people, same-gender loving people, lesbians, gays..." - at that point, to me, it is semantics. masculine of center applies to anyone who wants to identify that way. some people use it to be inclusive of butches, studs, aggressives, etc. when speaking. not everyone likes it. not everyone likes gender non-conforming, but if i say the words "gender non-conforming" people will more or less get that i mean folks who transgress gender boundaries and that is inclusive of trans and butch people. it doesn't mean everyone has to like it or use it in reference to themselves. welcome to alphabet soup land - everyone constantly bitches about which word to use.

this term was also used before butch voices chose to adopt it, and is used in many communities outside of butch voices, and in my understanding, this thread was to talk about the term itself, not butch voices. if a lot of butches don't want butch voices to use the term...that is an internal conversation to have in the butch voices community. but that doesn't have any bearing on how the term is used outside of butch voices.

i've been researching the history of the arguments over the term, and i am repeatedly struck by the fact that this is a term that is predominantly meaningful in poc queer communities, and many qpoc feel alienated in white lesbian, queer, and trans* spaces, and almost all of the backlash against the term has happened AFTER predominantly white spaces have started using it in an effort to be more inclusive of qpoc, and the majority of the backlash is from white folks.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by aishah

butch voices' website clearly says

"What identities are under the BUTCH Voices umbrella?
Butch, Stud, Aggressive (AG), Macha, Dom, Tomboi, genderqueer, two-spirit, Trans men who identify as Masculine of Center and all other similar identities."

the first descriptor on the list is "butch." "masculine of center" is added onto a list of identities. to me, the term is self-selecting - like queer. if i hated the term queer and didn't want it used in reference to me, BUT it was commonly understood that queer spaces were inclusive of me as a same-gender-loving person and/or those spaces said "we welcome queer people, same-gender loving people, lesbians, gays..." - at that point, to me, it is semantics. masculine of center applies to anyone who wants to identify that way. some people use it to be inclusive of butches, studs, aggressives, etc. when speaking. not everyone likes it. not everyone likes gender non-conforming, but if i say the words "gender non-conforming" people will more or less get that i mean folks who transgress gender boundaries and that is inclusive of trans and butch people. it doesn't mean everyone has to like it or use it in reference to themselves. welcome to alphabet soup land - everyone constantly bitches about which word to use.

this term was also used before butch voices chose to adopt it, and is used in many communities outside of butch voices, and in my understanding, this thread was to talk about the term itself, not butch voices. if a lot of butches don't want butch voices to use the term...that is an internal conversation to have in the butch voices community. but that doesn't have any bearing on how the term is used outside of butch voices.

i've been researching the history of the arguments over the term, and i am repeatedly struck by the fact that this is a term that is predominantly meaningful in poc queer communities, and many qpoc feel alienated in white lesbian, queer, and trans* spaces, and almost all of the backlash against the term has happened AFTER predominantly white spaces have started using it in an effort to be more inclusive of qpoc, and the majority of the backlash is from white folks.

While I was responding to this, my browser crashed, which gave me a chance to think about whether I really wanted to respond in the way that I was and I do not.

Perhaps I am sorely misunderstanding you, but this post of yours felt like you just told me that I am bitching about semantics and if I dont like the term masculine of center then not only should I just not use it, but I should just suck it up when others use it to describe me because we ALL have to deal with that.

Or as Monica Gellar once said, "Welcome to the real world, it sucks."

If I understood you correctly, you could see why that could be a little off-putting for a woman who is a butch to hear a woman who is not a butch say that about a term that is sometimes used to describe butches.

It also sounded like you told me what I could and could not talk about in this thread and forum, re: Butch Voices. To clarify, I spoke about BV in part because speaking about BV provided what I felt was a relevant example to my dislike at using that term as an umbrella for all of us to sit under, happily.



Someone created a thread about the term masculine of center and asked us what we all thought and felt about the term, do we like it, would we use it, etc and I was responding to that.

But I dont seem to be making my point clear about how my objections are not based on what terms POC do or do not use or even about whether others use the term, masculine of center to include POC in their writings, organizations, etc.; my objections stem from people using this term to describe ME without my consent. Not POC, not people who like the term, ME.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Parker

Perhaps I am sorely misunderstanding you, but this post of yours felt like you just told me that I am bitching about semantics and if I dont like the term masculine of center then not only should I just not use it, but I should just suck it up when others use it to describe me because we ALL have to deal with that.

Or as Monica Gellar once said, "Welcome to the real world, it sucks."

If I understood you correctly, you could see why that could be a little off-putting for a woman who is a butch to hear a woman who is not a butch say that about a term that is sometimes used to describe butches.

It also sounded like you told me what I could and could not talk about in this thread and forum, re: Butch Voices. To clarify, I spoke about BV in part because speaking about BV provided what I felt was a relevant example to my dislike at using that term as an umbrella for all of us to sit under, happily.

no, i was not attempting to tell you what you could and could not talk about and what you could and could not take offense to.

i was attempting to provide another perspective in this thread in which the predominant view has been that "masculine of center" is a bad term, and most of the discussion has been by people outside of the community in which masculine of center was coined/is used.

i accept that you don't want the term used in reference to you. i'm not trying to police what you can and cannot post about. i apologize if it came off that way.

yes, in a way, i am saying "this is the real world, get used to it" - because it sucks and it is still good to have these arguments but the reality is there has NEVER been a term in lgbt/queer/butch/femme/insert label here history that has made anybody happy or been unproblematic. that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it at all. i just...think there should be an element of realism, which is, every single conversation about labels in the history of the world, and this site, has resulted in disagreement. you don't have to agree with me that people should get used to that, i just think it's helpful to point out that that's the nature of language. i'm not saying anyone has to agree. your mileage may vary.

i am really, really sorry if i came off as directive. that wasn't my intention and i fucked up.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by aishah

also i think it is interesting, given that this term was coined by members of the brown boi project and is primarily used by black studs and butches, that people who are not in those communities are saying they don't want it to apply to them and they think it's wrong. if you don't want it to apply to you and you think it's wrong...don't use it???

I'll have to see if I can find the dicusssion, it's been a long time ago (maybe 5 or 6 years ago), but it was actually suggested at one point that "Butch" was a racist label for some of the same reasons. (that it was primarly used by white people)

I think that the intention to make a term that felt more inclusive for the BV conferences was a good one at heart but the way in which it was carried out was highly problematic for a lot of Butches. I know I read some really interesting discussion on several blogs where masculine Lesbians of Color who did not use the term "Butch" or "Stud" talked about feeling erased by many attempts to create language around their specific identities.

[Medusa]

I would also submit that Masculinity and Femininity aren't necessarily on opposite ends of the spectrum or opposite sides of a circle from one another.

Attempts to diagram gender often end up with a big "M" on one end and a big "F" on the other end with multiple identities getting plotted somewhere in between. This is hierarchal to me and often ends up feeling erasing of Trans identities.

I think in a perfect world, gender would be a 3D pool where all of our various molecules and atoms bump and collide into one another, exist within and outside of one another, and gain strength and power from one another.