"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by always2late

LOL...yes I agree....the idea of a longshoreman floral designer does not really fit the "traditional" role

While I do agree with much of my father's "measure of a man" in theory....I do think he is stifled by his lack of ability to show, or come to terms with, his emotions.

So do you typically date Men, or Butches?

[always2late]

I date whomever I am attracted to and who exhibits the personality and character that I find desirable in a partner.

[Soon]

Mandating chivalry is mandating sexism

A Latin teacher in Arizona has instituted a rule that all of his male students act like "gentleman" to the young women in class. Yes, that's right - he's mandated chivalry.

Ivanyi announced the initiative on the first day of class:
• Boys would hold doors for girls.

• They would ask girls if they would like to be seated, and offer to take their backpacks before they sit down.

• Boys would stand if a girl leaves the room.

• They would allow girls to be served first if food is in the classroom.

• And, girls always had the right of refusal.

"All boys will understand chivalry," Ivanyi said. "It's teaching them social grace. It's things they should know when they do go out on dates."

First of all, this is Latin class - not Old-School Dating 101. But I digress. As I've been speaking on college campuses this Spring, several students have asked me how I feel about chivalry, and if promoting feminism means "giving up" men being chivalrous. In a word: yes.

Now, let's be clear - there's a big difference between chivalry and manners. Being a nice person that opens doors for others (regardless of their gender) and being respectful is something that we should encourage in all people. That's being kind; it's mannered and it's nice. Chivalry, on the other hand, is straight up based on the idea that women are weaker need to be taken care of. It's insulting. It's also a trade-off - one that we're supposed to be grateful for - for being at the shit end of the patriarchy.

There's a reason that folks like the Independent Women's Forum - an organization that fights against Title IX and VAWA - have full on campaigns to promote chivalry. It's the same reason that conservative columnists bemoan how feminism has killed women being "ladies," or how if chivalry still existed rape would magically go away: The world in which women are treated like delicate flowers who need dudes to pay for their dinners and put on their jackets is a world in which women are expected to live up to their end of the bargain by being submissive and embracing traditional gender roles. No thanks - I'll take equal pay over paid dinner dates any day.

Posted by Jessica - March 31, 2010, at 02:53PM | in Education , Sexism


-----------------

Thoughts?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Mandating chivalry is mandating sexism

A Latin teacher in Arizona has instituted a rule that all of his male students act like "gentleman" to the young women in class. Yes, that's right - he's mandated chivalry.

Ivanyi announced the initiative on the first day of class:
• Boys would hold doors for girls.

• They would ask girls if they would like to be seated, and offer to take their backpacks before they sit down.

• Boys would stand if a girl leaves the room.

• They would allow girls to be served first if food is in the classroom.

• And, girls always had the right of refusal.

"All boys will understand chivalry," Ivanyi said. "It's teaching them social grace. It's things they should know when they do go out on dates."

First of all, this is Latin class - not Old-School Dating 101. But I digress. As I've been speaking on college campuses this Spring, several students have asked me how I feel about chivalry, and if promoting feminism means "giving up" men being chivalrous. In a word: yes.

Now, let's be clear - there's a big difference between chivalry and manners. Being a nice person that opens doors for others (regardless of their gender) and being respectful is something that we should encourage in all people. That's being kind; it's mannered and it's nice. Chivalry, on the other hand, is straight up based on the idea that women are weaker need to be taken care of. It's insulting. It's also a trade-off - one that we're supposed to be grateful for - for being at the shit end of the patriarchy.

There's a reason that folks like the Independent Women's Forum - an organization that fights against Title IX and VAWA - have full on campaigns to promote chivalry. It's the same reason that conservative columnists bemoan how feminism has killed women being "ladies," or how if chivalry still existed rape would magically go away: The world in which women are treated like delicate flowers who need dudes to pay for their dinners and put on their jackets is a world in which women are expected to live up to their end of the bargain by being submissive and embracing traditional gender roles. No thanks - I'll take equal pay over paid dinner dates any day.

Posted by Jessica - March 31, 2010, at 02:53PM | in Education , Sexism


-----------------

Thoughts?

I love good manners!

But yes, I would rather be paid as an equal in the work place over someone buying me dinner I can afford and expecting something in return. I would rather be the one paying and expecting .

Chivalry to me brings up Medieval courtly expectations of a knight in shining armor rescuing a poor defenseless maiden sort of thing.

[Hack]

Here's the thing.

I don't make a big show, I think, about holding open doors and other things like that. I hold them open for all women, sometimes men, anyone carrying a child or package, and especially older people.

I feel weird, though, when men hold doors open for me. lol

I think it was little man who said a few posts back that he feels women are the most magnificent creatures on earth. When I read that, I thought to myself, I feel the same. And I do. However, I would never, in a million years imply that holding a door open for a women, buying her lunch or standing when she enters a room equates to her being helpless, weak or anything like that. Are you kidding me? Most girls I have had the pleasure of spending time with would knock me in to next week if I were implying that. Especially queer girls or femmes -- they, in my opinion, have to be the fiercest women on the planet because they choose to stand alongside guys like me, kiss me in public and have had my back on more than one occasion.

Re-reading that paragraph above, it seems the least I can do for girls who spend time with me is hold open the doors and buy lunch.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Hack

Here's the thing.

I don't make a big show, I think, about holding open doors and other things like that. I hold them open for all women, sometimes men, anyone carrying a child or package, and especially older people.

I feel weird, though, when men hold doors open for me. lol

I think it was little man who said a few posts back that he feels women are the most magnificent creatures on earth. When I read that, I thought to myself, I feel the same. And I do. However, I would never, in a million years imply that holding a door open for a women, buying her lunch or standing when she enters a room equates to her being helpless, weak or anything like that. Are you kidding me? Most girls I have had the pleasure of spending time with would knock me in to next week if I were implying that. Especially queer girls or femmes -- they, in my opinion, have to be the fiercest women on the planet because they choose to stand alongside guys like me, kiss me in public and have had my back on more than one occasion.

Re-reading that paragraph above, it seems the least I can do for girls who spend time with me is hold open the doors and buy lunch.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

I get what you are saying--completely.
--------

However, imagine you or guys like you in that class (in the article) where the teacher is enforcing these rules of etiquette based on someone's gender. Or maybe your post was in no relation to the article from Feministing? At any rate, I am pretty ticked at this classroom enforcement of manners based on gender.

I imagine the butch or trans kids feeling very uncomfortable with these sort of expectations of behaviour based on someone's perceived gender.

I don't think it is up to teachers to explain what is appropriate manners/behaviour based on gender. He/she should be instilling politeness/respect for all but not these forms of etiquette that are gender stratified. I can imagine some very uncomfortable and even humiliated children who would be mortified if they had to accept these forms/codes of behaviour when they do not identify with the gender that is recognized by their peers or teacher.

That is but one of my objections to this little exercise of this Latin teacher of Arizona.

[Hack]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I get what you are saying--completely.
--------

However, imagine you or guys like you in that class (in the article) where the teacher is enforcing these rules of etiquette based on someone's gender. Or maybe your post was in no relation to the article from Feministing? At any rate, I am pretty ticked at this classroom enforcement of manners based on gender.

I imagine the butch or trans kids feeling very uncomfortable with these sort of expectations of behaviour based on someone's perceived gender.

I don't think it is up to teachers to explain what is appropriate manners/behaviour based on gender. He/she should be instilling politeness/respect for all but not these forms of etiquette that are gender stratified. I can imagine some very uncomfortable and even humiliated children who would be mortified if they had to accept these forms/codes of behaviour when they do not identify with the gender that is recognized by their peers or teacher.

That is but one of my objections to this little exercise of this Latin teacher of Arizona.

I was writing more in response to Apocalipstic.

I have many relatives, including a sister, who is a teacher. Any of them will tell you that their job includes many things, including teaching kids manners.

I was attempting to say that that good manners are important to me, and I employ them naturally. I don't agree with what this particular teacher is doing either. Kids should learn manners at home, from parents, grandparents or whomever they are raised by.

Jake

[always2late]

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by always2late

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

I thought the article was really conducive to the discussion about what constitutes *masculinity* in today's society.

The article did happen to be from Feministing.

Do I like/appreciate/cherish certain behaviours from my husband? Yes.

I think, though, when others start instilling (parents, school authorities, etc.) what it is to BE masculine or a man, that is where trouble may begin--when people dictate what it is to be truly masculine, a butch ... etc. that's where I take an issue (same difference for what constitutes femininity for me).

I felt badly for the students in that article to have a teacher tell them what it is to be a *proper* man or woman--people on this site know that that can be very tricky and even damaging.

Interesting to think about and good thread.

[Apocalipstic]

Like I said, I love good manners
and if someone wants to buy me lunch I am honored.

Now, if the same person refuses under any circumstance for me to buy them lunch, then it is a problem. My G/F now for example lost her job of many years with General Motors and I am paying the bills. If she had a problem with that and thought it was less masculine somehow, it would make an already stressful situation way worse.

I think "masculinity" or what people expect to be masculine can be so different from person to person. What keep coming up for me in this discussion is the expectation that the man/Butch not be the sensitive one.

I think over the course of my life, I have expected Butches to be as unemotional, un-sensitive (not insensivive) and unromantic as I am, and this expectation has hurt some feelings along the way. Does that make sense?

Like when I have been single and dating and made it crystal clear (I thought) that I was just messing around with no strings attached and then being told "but Butches have feelings too and I just thought you were playing hard to get" .....

Or with every single Butch I have dated (some of them trans now) saying how unromantic I am.

I am learning that we can't expect people to have certain behaviors based on how they look.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by always2late

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

And I don't think that there is anything wrong with this. Especially for us butches who naturally fall into this "style" of the dance. For some butches it is how we "show our love", and how we just simply operate in our relationships, so it is great when one finds a femme who seeks this same "style" of dancing.

I need a partner who seeks/desires this from me (seeks that type of "energy" or "way of being", or "way of relating"), or I would not feel fulfilled in that relationship (I would feel like I wasn't giving something to my partner that I need to give..or something like that!)

[Apocalipstic]

A problem for me has been expecting my partners to be a certain way based on what they look like or who they say/think they are.

If they present themselves as men in a "traditional" non "sensitive" kind of way, and I act accordingly (naturally), since I am horribly lacking on the romantic (remembering your birthdays and anniversary) and cuddling/foreplay department. They are upset that I am treating them like a man, when they are not. While really I am just being myself.

I see myself as a dude emotionally and have been told that by every single person I have dated in my 32 years of dating. I try to be more emotional and romantic, I do.

So expecting a person to be a certain way even if they think themselves that they are traditionally masculine in every way, does not mean they really are.

Am I making any sense at all?