"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[Hack]

Here's the thing.

I don't make a big show, I think, about holding open doors and other things like that. I hold them open for all women, sometimes men, anyone carrying a child or package, and especially older people.

I feel weird, though, when men hold doors open for me. lol

I think it was little man who said a few posts back that he feels women are the most magnificent creatures on earth. When I read that, I thought to myself, I feel the same. And I do. However, I would never, in a million years imply that holding a door open for a women, buying her lunch or standing when she enters a room equates to her being helpless, weak or anything like that. Are you kidding me? Most girls I have had the pleasure of spending time with would knock me in to next week if I were implying that. Especially queer girls or femmes -- they, in my opinion, have to be the fiercest women on the planet because they choose to stand alongside guys like me, kiss me in public and have had my back on more than one occasion.

Re-reading that paragraph above, it seems the least I can do for girls who spend time with me is hold open the doors and buy lunch.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Hack

Here's the thing.

I don't make a big show, I think, about holding open doors and other things like that. I hold them open for all women, sometimes men, anyone carrying a child or package, and especially older people.

I feel weird, though, when men hold doors open for me. lol

I think it was little man who said a few posts back that he feels women are the most magnificent creatures on earth. When I read that, I thought to myself, I feel the same. And I do. However, I would never, in a million years imply that holding a door open for a women, buying her lunch or standing when she enters a room equates to her being helpless, weak or anything like that. Are you kidding me? Most girls I have had the pleasure of spending time with would knock me in to next week if I were implying that. Especially queer girls or femmes -- they, in my opinion, have to be the fiercest women on the planet because they choose to stand alongside guys like me, kiss me in public and have had my back on more than one occasion.

Re-reading that paragraph above, it seems the least I can do for girls who spend time with me is hold open the doors and buy lunch.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

I get what you are saying--completely.
--------

However, imagine you or guys like you in that class (in the article) where the teacher is enforcing these rules of etiquette based on someone's gender. Or maybe your post was in no relation to the article from Feministing? At any rate, I am pretty ticked at this classroom enforcement of manners based on gender.

I imagine the butch or trans kids feeling very uncomfortable with these sort of expectations of behaviour based on someone's perceived gender.

I don't think it is up to teachers to explain what is appropriate manners/behaviour based on gender. He/she should be instilling politeness/respect for all but not these forms of etiquette that are gender stratified. I can imagine some very uncomfortable and even humiliated children who would be mortified if they had to accept these forms/codes of behaviour when they do not identify with the gender that is recognized by their peers or teacher.

That is but one of my objections to this little exercise of this Latin teacher of Arizona.

[Hack]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I get what you are saying--completely.
--------

However, imagine you or guys like you in that class (in the article) where the teacher is enforcing these rules of etiquette based on someone's gender. Or maybe your post was in no relation to the article from Feministing? At any rate, I am pretty ticked at this classroom enforcement of manners based on gender.

I imagine the butch or trans kids feeling very uncomfortable with these sort of expectations of behaviour based on someone's perceived gender.

I don't think it is up to teachers to explain what is appropriate manners/behaviour based on gender. He/she should be instilling politeness/respect for all but not these forms of etiquette that are gender stratified. I can imagine some very uncomfortable and even humiliated children who would be mortified if they had to accept these forms/codes of behaviour when they do not identify with the gender that is recognized by their peers or teacher.

That is but one of my objections to this little exercise of this Latin teacher of Arizona.

I was writing more in response to Apocalipstic.

I have many relatives, including a sister, who is a teacher. Any of them will tell you that their job includes many things, including teaching kids manners.

I was attempting to say that that good manners are important to me, and I employ them naturally. I don't agree with what this particular teacher is doing either. Kids should learn manners at home, from parents, grandparents or whomever they are raised by.

Jake

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Hack

I was writing more in response to Apocalipstic.

I have many relatives, including a sister, who is a teacher. Any of them will tell you that their job includes many things, including teaching kids manners.

I was attempting to say that that good manners are important to me, and I employ them naturally. I don't agree with what this particular teacher is doing either. Kids should learn manners at home, from parents, grandparents or whomever they are raised by.

Jake

Thanks for clarifying; I realized when I finished my post maybe it wasn't directed as a response to the article. Oh, and I agree manners can and should be taught at home--I also think they can be taught at school too (as in respect for all people), but I would hate for them to be taught in way like...boys do this...and girls do this kinda way. I still remember being told how a lady sits and what she does and doesn't do...it felt very rigid and even shaming at certain points.

-----------
Getting back to the OP's question of what constitutes masculinity for me?
I still can't definitively answer that--but I know it when I feel it and it's hot and works for me.

It is a combination of behaviour and appearance...but I can't list the exact attributes. Do I feel the protector/protected thing (now)? Yes, I do but I didn't feel that with my male partners in the past; interestingly enough, I felt I was the stronger one in the relationship. I also feel more comfortable with being the (lucky) recipient of certain behaviours than I ever have before. Weird, eh?

I'll think on it some more.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Thanks for clarifying; I realized when I finished my post maybe it wasn't directed as a response to the article. Oh, and I agree manners can and should be taught at home--I also think they can be taught at school too (as in respect for all people), but I would hate for them to be taught in way like...boys do this...and girls do this kinda way. I still remember being told how a lady sits and what she does and doesn't do...it felt very rigid and even shaming at certain points.


Getting back to the OP's question of what constitutes masculinity for me?
I still can't definitively answer that--but I know it when I feel it and it's hot and works for me.

It is a combination of behaviour and appearance...but I can't list the exact attributes. Do I feel the protector/protected thing (now)? Yes, I do but I didn't feel that with my male partners in the past; interestingly enough, I felt I was the stronger one in the relationship. I also feel more comfortable with being the (lucky) recipient of certain behaviours than I ever have before. Weird, eh?

I'll think on it some more.

I think you put a finger on my problem....the whole "a lady acts this or that way" and yes I found it very shaming growing up.

[Hack]

Many women tell me I have masculine energy, masculine behaviors, masculine traits.

I don't argue. I embrace that about myself. That's me, you know?

In fact, everything society associates with feminine is a completely foreign thing to me. Some of my straight guy friends will come to me to explain women to them, and I say to them, "I have no idea, man. I am as mystified as you sometimes." But that's all part of the allure to me...I like being mystified.

Jake

[AtLast]

What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other. I just don't accept a male-female dichotomy and am so tired of traditional, patriarchal ideas of what is masculine or male... and female or feminine.

Butch as continually defined in the masculine is very limiting and quite gender ignorant to me. Constraining as well and a perpetuation of sexist ideology. If we are going to move beyond the binary, we need to stop this crap.

[always2late]

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by always2late

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

I thought the article was really conducive to the discussion about what constitutes *masculinity* in today's society.

The article did happen to be from Feministing.

Do I like/appreciate/cherish certain behaviours from my husband? Yes.

I think, though, when others start instilling (parents, school authorities, etc.) what it is to BE masculine or a man, that is where trouble may begin--when people dictate what it is to be truly masculine, a butch ... etc. that's where I take an issue (same difference for what constitutes femininity for me).

I felt badly for the students in that article to have a teacher tell them what it is to be a *proper* man or woman--people on this site know that that can be very tricky and even damaging.

Interesting to think about and good thread.

[Apocalipstic]

Like I said, I love good manners
and if someone wants to buy me lunch I am honored.

Now, if the same person refuses under any circumstance for me to buy them lunch, then it is a problem. My G/F now for example lost her job of many years with General Motors and I am paying the bills. If she had a problem with that and thought it was less masculine somehow, it would make an already stressful situation way worse.

I think "masculinity" or what people expect to be masculine can be so different from person to person. What keep coming up for me in this discussion is the expectation that the man/Butch not be the sensitive one.

I think over the course of my life, I have expected Butches to be as unemotional, un-sensitive (not insensivive) and unromantic as I am, and this expectation has hurt some feelings along the way. Does that make sense?

Like when I have been single and dating and made it crystal clear (I thought) that I was just messing around with no strings attached and then being told "but Butches have feelings too and I just thought you were playing hard to get" .....

Or with every single Butch I have dated (some of them trans now) saying how unromantic I am.

I am learning that we can't expect people to have certain behaviors based on how they look.

[Apocalipstic]

But again, if we are talking manners, yes, lovely manners are wonderful.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by always2late

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

And I don't think that there is anything wrong with this. Especially for us butches who naturally fall into this "style" of the dance. For some butches it is how we "show our love", and how we just simply operate in our relationships, so it is great when one finds a femme who seeks this same "style" of dancing.

I need a partner who seeks/desires this from me (seeks that type of "energy" or "way of being", or "way of relating"), or I would not feel fulfilled in that relationship (I would feel like I wasn't giving something to my partner that I need to give..or something like that!)

[The_Lady_Snow]

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong

[Liam]

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

So I have to ask cause i don't know if I am you right..

Are you mad about something? Did my difference in masculine traits not go with what you like think? Should I have not expressed my POV?

Curious...

Do you really feel someone is being erased by words here?

[Liam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong

Originally Posted by Liam

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So I have to ask cause i don't know if I am you right..

Are you mad about something? Did my difference in masculine traits not go with what you like think? Should I have not expressed my POV?

Curious...

Do you really feel someone is being erased by words here?

I am not mad at you, Snowy, however I think your questions would be great in another thread. I did not appreciate AtLastHome's comment about crap, and I have addressed that personally, with her. I do disagree with you regarding your statement that traditional went out the window. Its a nice thought, but we are a long ways from achieving that. I think many people have expanded their notion of what masculine is, not everyone has. It doesn't sound like you are into "traditional" masculinity to me. I thought this thread was for those, who were. And yes, I think when you refer to characteristics or behaviours that people have used to describe themselves, as stifling, you are definitely putting them down.

[BullDog]

Thank you so much for your post Snowy! My masculinity does not come from traditional notions of what a man or male is supposed to be since I am neither.

I am a butch who has loved walking girls home from school and carrying their books since the time I could walk, lol. I do enjoy what some call "old school" or "the dance." However, this has nothing to do with any traditional ideas of masculinity or how a butch is supposed to act or be. It is just me. I was this way long before I even knew what butch was.

I love it when femmes and other feminine women embrace their dashes and flairs of masculinity. That's powerful.

I also loved what Apocalipstic had to say about how as a femme she doesn't fit the stereotypes in terms of what women are supposed to think and feel.

To be honest, I think everyone is looking for a partner who is strong (femmes being among the strongest people I have ever known) and kind, no matter what their gender or what gender they are attracted to.

Women can and do fully embrace masculinity. I fit the "dance" just not the stereotypes.

[Dylan]

I'm going to be difficult here again

But, um, aren't ALL of our (speaking from a Western POV) definitions and ideas of masculinity and femininity cultural and thus biased?

I mean, if One asks me to define what makes Xperson masculine, I'm only really going to be able to rely on traditional, cultural statements of that definition.

Walking someone home from school and carrying books (using these as examples because they were the last examples to be brought up) are traditional cultural concepts

ANY 'example' or 'definition' of masculinity or femininity are going to be culturally based...as far as I can think of.


And Again, They're Predominately White, Western Based, Because These Ideas Are Not (necessarily) The Same Throughout Other/Each Culture,
Dylan

[BullDog]

Dylan, I agree with you that notions of what is masculine and feminine are culturally based and in Western cultures based on white culture in particular.

Just to be clear, I do think walking girls home from school and carrying their books is a stereotype often associated with masculine courtly or courteous behavior. I just happened to enjoy doing that from a young age.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'm going to be difficult here again

But, um, aren't ALL of our (speaking from a Western POV) definitions and ideas of masculinity and femininity cultural and thus biased?

I mean, if One asks me to define what makes Xperson masculine, I'm only really going to be able to rely on traditional, cultural statements of that definition.

Walking someone home from school and carrying books (using these as examples because they were the last examples to be brought up) are traditional cultural concepts

ANY 'example' or 'definition' of masculinity or femininity are going to be culturally based...as far as I can think of.

Absolutely, they are culturally based. And unfortunately, in US culture, we have the perpetuation of white male as the ideal and the one with continued privilege.


And Again, They're Predominately White, Western Based, Because These Ideas Are Not (necessarily) The Same Throughout Other/Each Culture,
Dylan

I think what always gets to me in these conversations is the acceptance of what has been traditionally equated with both masculine and feminine in US culture, yet, we have this whole new gender perspective at our disposal to break these concepts down. In doing so, it seems like we could free so much of what has oppressed us.

Behaviors like carrying books, opening doors, etc. to me, are just part of a person's internal value system or nature and don't have a thing to do with gender identification really. Not the complex nature of gender that I see many friends dealing with if they are struggling with transition issues. Or, for me as a butch woman.

My perfect world would be one that had more of the two-spirit or ideas formed about gender in other cultures that have not been based upon the binary. But, I am stuck with being in the US and growing up with a very oppressive take on not only gender, but gender roles based upon the binary. And this contamination seems to be seeping through to newer ways of viewing gender from a perspective that does not accept a binary system. Where is the progress?

For the record, I want to apologize for my using crap in my initial post on the thread. it was insensitive. I do get worked-up when I see stereotypes of mascilinity and feminity thrown around. But, I should not have said that.