Infidelity

[AtLast]

Kobi-

This is a grand community of diverse thinking! Thanks for the thread.

Originally Posted by Kobi

When I started this thread, I was just curious how people view fidelity and how people have reacted to infidelity in their own lives.

It has been interesting to see the twists and turns that have occured as people insert their own scripts into the flow. There has been a celebrity focus, a sexes focus, a physical attractiveness focus, a sex focus, a violence focus, a few things I havent yet grasped focus, and even some personal feelings and experience focus!

This has kind of reinforced for me, how one needs to choose ones words carefully to minimize misinterpretation. Even then, there is no guarantee that what you meant is what will be heard or focused on.

It is a fascinating process to watch. And gives insights into how misunderstanding occur.

Having said this, I still want to know why Dylan wants to push Lance Armstrong off his bike.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

If Poor Ol' Sandy had cheated on Jesse, I highly highly doubt ANYONE would be defending Jesse and asking "OMG! How could Sandy do such a thing...she's not a REAL woman. Jesse's got sooooooo much going for him. He's hot, he's brilliant, he's a strong man blah blah blah. Sandy just needs to 'woman up', because blah blah blah"

No one would be sending Jesse a Huggie Basket

But I'd bet money on what WOULD happen.

Jesse would still be made out to be a dick who had treated Sandy badly, and DROVE her to cheat. Jesse would have driven ApplePieSandy into the arms of another man.

When a man cheats on a 'beautiful woman' (and looks are just about all a woman's whole character is based on in this country. If she's pretty, well then "she's got a million [nameless] things going for her and she's brilliant" everyone said the same thing about that Hurley chick when Hughy cheated...oh, and where's her career today?), ohhhhhh my god the whole world crashes down, and people have to ask, "How could he cheat on Sandy/Elizabeth Hurley/whothefuckever" Ahhhhhh, but when a woman cheats on her husband, we either don't hear about it at all, because it's not big news, OR (usually), the man drove her to cheat by being such a big dick. Or there were some (excusable) extenuating circumstances (Christie Brinkley, anyone?)


Double Standard,
Dylan

There is a big double-standard with this going on. And now, the rumors of James (the bad boy) going into rehab/treatment.... hummmm... for sex addiction? This is the new Hollywood, rich athelete answer to cheating. I believe this addiction exists, however, the rich stars will use it as an excuse for behavior and if addicted, won't really do the work necessary to recover. I watched LKL last night and some of the same old BS about men just not being able to help themselves with sex (and the other women are always the temptress) bullshit was being spewed. Actually, the whole interview was one of the most sexist pile of horse-dung I have seen in a long time. Sexist about both men and women. Equal opportunity stereotypes abound!

Women cheat, too. And I don't believe we have accurate stats on the actual numbers because of this double standard. I am also tired of men being viewed as slaves to their penis!

Why the hell don't we talk about how we make choices for ourselves in relationships and take responsibility for when we make mistakes? Also, in the context of these celebrity situations, why people think the dynamics are within any kind of norm (term used loosly) anything like what the rtest of us experience is just nuts to me. But, it sells!!!

Anyone want to talk about the meaning of character?

[SuperFemme]

Poor poor men. In a Patriarchal society where it is the norm for men to cheat (just not get caught) it is hard to feel pity.

I don't CARE who is cheating as long as it's not on me.

I simply REFUSE to feel any pity for the (despite the diversions of double standards and blahblahblah) men.

You make your bed you lie in it. Pun intentional.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;77007]Poor poor men. In a Patriarchal society where it is the norm for men to cheat (just not get caught) it is hard to feel pity.

I don't CARE who is cheating as long as it's not on me.

I simply REFUSE to feel any pity for the (despite the diversions of double standards and blahblahblah) men.

You make your bed you lie in it. Pun intentional.[/QU

I don't feel any pity for these guys at all. And it is the patriarchal traditions that are at the bottom of the men will be men stuff. But, why aren’t we talking about the entire state of being able to make a commitment and stick to it (if a monogamous marriage/relationship is what we commit to) instead of differentiating along gender?

One is either has an honorable character, or not. Doesn't matter if male or female, or combination, thereof.

[Apocalipstic]

the rehab for sex addiction actually cracks me up

[SuperFemme]

[quote=AtLastHome;77019]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Poor poor men. In a Patriarchal society where it is the norm for men to cheat (just not get caught) it is hard to feel pity.

I don't CARE who is cheating as long as it's not on me.

I simply REFUSE to feel any pity for the (despite the diversions of double standards and blahblahblah) men.

You make your bed you lie in it. Pun intentional.[/QU

I don't feel any pity for these guys at all. And it is the patriarchal traditions that are at the bottom of the men will be men stuff. But, why aren’t we talking about the entire state of being able to make a commitment and stick to it (if a monogamous marriage/relationship is what we commit to) instead of differentiating along gender?

One is either has an honorable character, or not. Doesn't matter if male or female, or combination, thereof.

That is what we HAVE been talking about in this thread for the most part. Most of us in between twists and turns were speaking about OUR feeling on fidelity. Female, Male, Butch, Femme and TG.

If by *We* you mean the media? Well....let's take a look at who controls the media.

I have a conspiracy theory: John Edwards PAID Jesse James and Tiger Woods to screw around so the focus could be taken off of him fathering a baby during the election and letting his top aide claim paternity. There is even a John Edwards sex tape.

Who are we hearing about though? Never fuck on the grassy knoll people.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Who are we hearing about though? Never fuck on the grassy knoll people.

Since you know I "listen" visually ... now I want to **** upon a grassy knoll ...
Good thing it's Spring and the hills around us are GREEN!

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Plato

Since you know I "listen" visually ... now I want to **** upon a grassy knoll ...
Good thing it's Spring and the hills around us are GREEN!

At least I know it is ME you want to take to the knoll.
If tomorrow it came out that you'd have ten or twelve flings
without me watching? I would hope people would feel bad for
poor, sweet, little ole' me. On the flip side, it the opposite were
to happen? You could always revert to my cheating slogan.
"I'll cut a bitch".

[Plato]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

At least I know it is ME you want to take to the knoll.
If tomorrow it came out that you'd have ten or twelve flings
without me watching? I would hope people would feel bad for
poor, sweet, little ole' me. On the flip side, it the opposite were
to happen? You could always revert to my cheating slogan.
"I'll cut a bitch".

We are not emotional Cheaters or any other type of disrespectful treatment of each other.
lol
The teenager is using your motto already ...

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

There is a big double-standard with this going on. And now, the rumors of James (the bad boy) going into rehab/treatment.... hummmm... for sex addiction? This is the new Hollywood, rich athelete answer to cheating. I believe this addiction exists, however, the rich stars will use it as an excuse for behavior and if addicted, won't really do the work necessary to recover. I watched LKL last night and some of the same old BS about men just not being able to help themselves with sex (and the other women are always the temptress) bullshit was being spewed. Actually, the whole interview was one of the most sexist pile of horse-dung I have seen in a long time. Sexist about both men and women. Equal opportunity stereotypes abound!

Women cheat, too. And I don't believe we have accurate stats on the actual numbers because of this double standard. I am also tired of men being viewed as slaves to their penis!

Why the hell don't we talk about how we make choices for ourselves in relationships and take responsibility for when we make mistakes? Also, in the context of these celebrity situations, why people think the dynamics are within any kind of norm (term used loosly) anything like what the rtest of us experience is just nuts to me. But, it sells!!!

Anyone want to talk about the meaning of character?

What's LKL?

I thought we were talking about making choices for ourselves.

And one of *my* meanings of 'character' is not basing someone's 'worth' solely on his/her looks...especially when it comes to celebrities. It chaps my ass whenever I hear comments like, "[Sandy] didn't deserve this because she's beautiful, and brilliant, and has a million things going for her. I would have treated her sooooooooooo much better."

It chaps my ass on so many levels. The main reason being the person who usually says this about celebrities has never DEALT with the celebrity. The entirety of the comment is based on public facade and (9 times outta 10) LOOKS. So, what does that mean? Does an not-so-attractive woman 'deserve' to be cheated on? And how in the hell does anyone know what it's like to live with Sandy (for example, altho the same shit was said about Eliza Hurley). I mean, seriously, maybe she's just a hideous person to deal with. Maybe a million things. But no, she's deemed attractive, so she MUST be just a complete joy to live with.

And who said anything about feeling 'pity' for men? I said there's a double standard. NO ONE says the same thing about the men who are cheated on (i.e. "OMG, he's sooooo hot, I would treat him right, he's brilliant and has a million things going for him...blah blah blah). No, the same things aren't said. And again, it goes back to sexism, because women are just delicate little flowers who need to be taken care of and "treated right" and all that other systematic sexist bullshit.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Men don't usually lose their children or their lives for cheating either.

Cheating sucks EVEN if the other half is heinous to live with. That's not an excuse for infidelity, it's a reason to break up.

[Rufusboi]

[quote=AtLastHome;77019]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Poor poor men. In a Patriarchal society where it is the norm for men to cheat (just not get caught) it is hard to feel pity.

I don't CARE who is cheating as long as it's not on me.

I simply REFUSE to feel any pity for the (despite the diversions of double standards and blahblahblah) men.

You make your bed you lie in it. Pun intentional.[/QU

I don't feel any pity for these guys at all. And it is the patriarchal traditions that are at the bottom of the men will be men stuff. But, why aren’t we talking about the entire state of being able to make a commitment and stick to it (if a monogamous marriage/relationship is what we commit to) instead of differentiating along gender?

One is either has an honorable character, or not. Doesn't matter if male or female, or combination, thereof.

Maybe as human beings we are not hard wired for monogomy. Marriage, coupledom, nuclear family is cultural. It is something we invented. The root of marriage is economic. My history is spotty here but it was at one point (in the west) to tie families together politically and economically. Also, I've read it was to ensure men that the baby was his and not someone elses so that he could pass his money, land etc down to a genetic relative (again, all patriarchy) plus throw in marriage as a way to control women's sexuality (ironically) and women as property passed from father to husband and so on and so on. Yet really, the whole institution is entirely unnatural and who says monogomy is natural and why are we tying character to something I don't believe we are genetically wired to be.

Having said this, I am monogomous and believe that if you and your partner have the expectation of monogomy and fidelity and this is what a couple agree to then you should live up to that agreement. I don't feel pity for James, Woods or anyone that cheats and gets caught and then has to deal with the fall out, whether male or female.

But in the grand scheme of things I think that we as humans are not wired for monogamy. And I think if we stop putting so much emphasis on marriage and instead emphasize the importance of being truthful ( admit that we can't be monogomous and let a potential partner know the relationship has to be an open relationship) or hell, in Woods' case, just stay single and have sex with lots of women (and not tell them you love them) then people won't get hurt). Part of the problem is that people can't just say .... I'd love to have sex with you, but before we do this please know it is a one time, one weekend thing, I don't want a relationship, I don't love you etc etc.

Well I'm rambling now......so I'll stop here.

Rufus

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I said there's a double standard. NO ONE says the same thing about the men who are cheated on (i.e. "OMG, he's sooooo hot, I would treat him right, he's brilliant and has a million things going for him...blah blah blah). No, the same things aren't said. And again, it goes back to sexism, because women are just delicate little flowers who need to be taken care of and "treated right" and all that other systematic sexist bullshit.
Dylan

Double standard? What kind of double standard is that? A double standard means some rules are applied more strictly to one group than another. If that is so, then, yes, there is a double standard where infidelity is concerned. And it is women who suffer as a result of it.

Thousands of women are beaten up and killed every year because of accusations of infidelity. Some men are too. That's the double standard. i cannot believe you repeated that. i cannot believe you would say it in a public forum where most of the participants are women. How hostile do you intend to be?

Who gives a crap what people say when others have relationship issues? Most people with an average IQ wouldn't say ANY of those things you quoted, yet you use their blathering as an excuse to say men have a harder time in our culture than women do where this issue is concerned? i don't think so. Take a body count.

i am sure there are some issues in our culture where women benefit from a double standard. This is NOT ONE of them. To say so -- and to keep saying it -- is appalling. It's hostile. It's misogynistic. WTF?

[The_Lady_Snow]

[quote=AtLastHome;77019]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Poor poor men. In a Patriarchal society where it is the norm for men to cheat (just not get caught) it is hard to feel pity.

I don't CARE who is cheating as long as it's not on me.

I simply REFUSE to feel any pity for the (despite the diversions of double standards and blahblahblah) men.

You make your bed you lie in it. Pun intentional.[/QU

I don't feel any pity for these guys at all. And it is the patriarchal traditions that are at the bottom of the men will be men stuff. But, why aren’t we talking about the entire state of being able to make a commitment and stick to it (if a monogamous marriage/relationship is what we commit to) instead of differentiating along gender?

One is either has an honorable character, or not. Doesn't matter if male or female, or combination, thereof.

I thought we were discussing relationships... I thought what we were doing is discussing that maybe just maybe we put to much time and energy into the lives of others and not enough into our own?

I dunno I think it oogy, that so many people are like ohhhh poor lil Sandra.. I mean what do we know about her really, should it matter who it is? Would it be just as bad if it had happened to say, the woman with the 4 kids with the mole on her chin down the street?

Wait wait we do not hear about the trials and tribulations of the people in building 899 apt 455. WHY?? Cause there is no one following them, idolizing them, or thinking ooooO--- Aaaaah that Sandy Chicharoon did not deserve her husband cheating on her, leaving her with no food, 5 kids and the pets, she didn't deserve that..

No, we are to busy worrying about El Tigre Woods, Leanna Rhimes, Jesse James, what's that guys name from the kid show......

Thinkin...

Oh yes John Gosselin......

Really???

WHO CARES!!!

There is a Pope out there hiding out priests who have molested over 200 deaf boys...

Pedophilia hiding is far worse than all this other shit..

At least that is what I think...

[SuperFemme]

[quote=The_Lady_Snow;77124]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I thought we were discussing relationships... I thought what we were doing is discussing that maybe just maybe we put to much time and energy into the lives of others and not enough into our own?

I dunno I think it oogy, that so many people are like ohhhh poor lil Sandra.. I mean what do we know about her really, should it matter who it is? Would it be just as bad if it had happened to say, the woman with the 4 kids with the mole on her chin down the street?

Wait wait we do not hear about the trials and tribulations of the people in building 899 apt 455. WHY?? Cause there is no one following them, idolizing them, or thinking ooooO--- Aaaaah that Sandy Chicharoon did not deserve her husband cheating on her, leaving her with no food, 5 kids and the pets, she didn't deserve that..

No, we are to busy worrying about El Tigre Woods, Leanna Rhimes, Jesse James, what's that guys name from the kid show......

Thinkin...

Oh yes John Gosselin......

Really???

WHO CARES!!!

There is a Pope out there hiding out priests who have molested over 200 deaf boys...

Pedophile hiding is far worse than all this other shit..

At least that is what I think...

There are about a hundred things that I can think of off the top of my head that are worse than cheating.

But you win with the Pope and his band of merry priests.

[Soon]

Reading People magazine online right now and this is an example of a woman cheating from years ago and the nation's reaction:

INGRID BERGMAN
While filming 1950's Stromboli, the Casablanca beauty fell for married director Roberto Rossellini, whom she left her own husband and daughter for. The affair scandalized the nation, leading Bergman to being blacklisted in Hollywood – and even denounced on the Senate floor as a "powerful influence for evil."

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

What's LKL?

I thought we were talking about making choices for ourselves.

And one of *my* meanings of 'character' is not basing someone's 'worth' solely on his/her looks...especially when it comes to celebrities. It chaps my ass whenever I hear comments like, "[Sandy] didn't deserve this because she's beautiful, and brilliant, and has a million things going for her. I would have treated her sooooooooooo much better."

It chaps my ass on so many levels. The main reason being the person who usually says this about celebrities has never DEALT with the celebrity. The entirety of the comment is based on public facade and (9 times outta 10) LOOKS. So, what does that mean? Does an not-so-attractive woman 'deserve' to be cheated on? And how in the hell does anyone know what it's like to live with Sandy (for example, altho the same shit was said about Eliza Hurley). I mean, seriously, maybe she's just a hideous person to deal with. Maybe a million things. But no, she's deemed attractive, so she MUST be just a complete joy to live with.

And who said anything about feeling 'pity' for men? I said there's a double standard. NO ONE says the same thing about the men who are cheated on (i.e. "OMG, he's sooooo hot, I would treat him right, he's brilliant and has a million things going for him...blah blah blah). No, the same things aren't said. And again, it goes back to sexism, because women are just delicate little flowers who need to be taken care of and "treated right" and all that other systematic sexist bullshit.


Dylan

Oh, Larry King Live. (LKL).. Tuesday night. Actually, it was a lousy group of interviewees. And the experts on sexual addictions were just not articulate at all. Not a very good representation of the fact that it can be an addictive and destructive situation for some people.

There was also a whole lotta stereotyping of both men and women going on! Which for me, gets in the way of looking at this in terms of addiction. This, and the latest celebrity sex rehab scenarios without people in the field that know what they are talking about.

JeepSakes, I agreed with you about the double standard... and the looks stuff as well. And, we all have different ideas of beauty, anyway. But, only people that are considered, beautiful, deserve to be treated well?? WTF is that?

I am right with you concerning personal choices.... I hate it when someone says they are lucky (re: about their relationship & partner). It isn't about luck at all, it is about taking care of yourself and choosing well. And having what it takes to be effective as a partner and knowing the art of cooperation. I know I make very conscious decisions about relationships and who I even date. Sure, I recognize that someone is a great choice, but I don't role dice in choosing to find out if someone is right for me (and themselves). And just because I might be smitten, doesn't mean I will turn away from what I know has to there in order to have a healthy relationship with someone. I make choices.

I had hoped with the Tiger Woods fiasco, that some good information would get out about sexual addictions, but, don't think it is. People don't want to deal with this. And they especially don't want to in terms of male stereotypes. They are much more able to think in terms of sex addiction with women, really... and stereotypes around sex abuse and histrionic personality variables (more stereotypes, usually).

Anything that gets in the way of forming positive relationships can have an addictive nature to it.

Just thinking that shouldn’t everyone cherish, respect, and hold their partner in high regard based upon mutuality of these tenets.

Oh, and hell yes, the Pope and the Band of Merry Men are a hell of a lot more important than this! Why can't Congress intervene with legislation in which all churches cannot be exempt from prosecution in these cases? The Catholic church is not the only perp here, either. The way in which religious organizations are protected/legally insulated from criminal (and civil) litigation in the US is an outrage.

[Kobi]

And on and on it goes lol.

Here I was the one who brought up using words carefully and I didnt when I spoke of people speaking publicly about how happy they are as a red flag for me. It is hard to explain in words, it is a feeling, it is something being said out of character, it is something you get a feel for. Saying you are happy with someone per se is not a red flag.

Rufus, I dont know if people are hard wired for monogamy or if it is cultural, economic, religious, or whatever. I know I am hard wired for monogamy.

And for cheaters heading to rehab for sexual addiction.......take away their access to viagra......I find it hard to believe these folks can carry on as they supposedly do without some artifical help.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Kobi

And for cheaters heading to rehab for sexual addiction.......take away their access to viagra......I find it hard to believe these folks can carry on as they supposedly do without some artifical help.

Sex addiction isn't just about fucking. It is about the high, but the high might come from flirting or an emotional connection. It's not just people having lots of sex with random folks. That's one type. A lot of them are porn addicts. A huge number seem to have torrid affairs online with people they never meet. Some just become infatuated a lot but never act on it. Nevertheless, it's disruptive to their lives.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

A lot of times a butch femme couple is two women, btw or two females,- one is butch and one is femme (not always of course)- so why would straight man/woman "standards" even apply.

Riggggghhhhhhhht

'Cuz butches and femmes nevvvvvvvvvvvvver have heterosexist norms placed on them

I mean, butches are neeevvvvvvvvver equated to men

and femmes are neeeevvvvvvvvvvvver expected to maintain straight ideals of femininity

We should start a thread about it, 'cuz I don't think there's evvvvver been a thread about it


I Must Be Outta My Gourd,
Dylan

P.S. Thanks for the butch-femme primer