"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other. I just don't accept a male-female dichotomy and am so tired of traditional, patriarchal ideas of what is masculine or male... and female or feminine.

Butch as continually defined in the masculine is very limiting and quite gender ignorant to me. Constraining as well and a perpetuation of sexist ideology. If we are going to move beyond the binary, we need to stop this crap.

I'm gonna be a little difficult here for a minute (shocking, I know).

And I'm not 'attacking' you...I'm gonna use the pronoun 'you', because you (personally) brought it up, but I'm also using 'you' in the general sense, because I've seen this same thing said a lot.

Ok, so you say, you don't accept the dichotomy of male-female. I get that.

However, then you also say, "What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other."

Ok, so here's where I'm gonna be difficult.

If there's no dichotomy, masculine wouldn't be rooted in feminine, and technically, One could have one without the other. I mean, if there's no dichotomy, either masculine or feminine could exist without the other or with another. We're so limited in language here, because we're not given a 'third option'. We're only given masculine/feminine. But, if we're NOT thinking in a dichotomy, then we're speaking in a spectrum (right?), ergo, One doesn't NEED one to have the other. Does this make any sense to anyone but me?

Also, I think a lot of 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine are born out of white, (predominately middle class), Western thinking. This was briefly touched on in the FIB butches thread on the other site.

On another note, while I revel in certain aspects of masculinity and femininity, I think when either are used as 'rules' to control people, I'm not down with that.


Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'm gonna be a little difficult here for a minute (shocking, I know).

And I'm not 'attacking' you...I'm gonna use the pronoun 'you', because you (personally) brought it up, but I'm also using 'you' in the general sense, because I've seen this same thing said a lot.

Ok, so you say, you don't accept the dichotomy of male-female. I get that.

However, then you also say, "What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other."

Ok, so here's where I'm gonna be difficult.

If there's no dichotomy, masculine wouldn't be rooted in feminine, and technically, One could have one without the other. I mean, if there's no dichotomy, either masculine or feminine could exist without the other or with another. We're so limited in language here, because we're not given a 'third option'. We're only given masculine/feminine. But, if we're NOT thinking in a dichotomy, then we're speaking in a spectrum (right?), ergo, One doesn't NEED one to have the other. Does this make any sense to anyone but me?

Also, I think a lot of 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine are born out of white, (predominately middle class), Western thinking. This was briefly touched on in the FIB butches thread on the other site.

On another note, while I revel in certain aspects of masculinity and femininity, I think when either are used as 'rules' to control people, I'm not down with that.


Dylan

I see your point here. I think my (just being personal, here) integration with masculinity & femininity is difficult for me to disconnect on many levels due to how i put it together for myself on a spiritual level (I know, eye-roll). But, yes, I see how my statement doesn't mesh the whole of all of this.

And I have had some more thoughts about this because what I really was reacting to is something I often do- when I see gender myths perpetuated by our own. I think I am also skewed in my thinking sometimes due to raising a male child as a masculine female in this society. A male child that did not fit well in the traditional sense of masculinity in this culture (the reverse of myself).

As I have said before, I am grateful for gender theories being examined more fully within my lifetime, but, I also see a lot of male-privilege continuing to be at the apex of gender identification and traditional social values.

There is something amiss with how someone that is socialized as female (and all of the negative that goes along with this in US culture) perceives what it is to be socialized as male, or be male. The US really has a gender-complex, I believe. Look at how many of us (butch, femme, and everyone one else) have some very significant grief about how we were not viewed positively because of the gender binary. On top of this, I think that many of us equate looking male (or more masculine) as being the same thing as how men are socialized in our society as men.. And this just isn't true. We do look at male socialization from a female socialized point of reference.

I have listened to conversations about this between my son (41 year old man) and TG men and had more than one light-bulb moment. Neither knows the differences, really. What they know are projections stemming from being socialized as male or female, just like everyone. Both (even with sensitivity and a genuine desire to understand ) assume what it is like to be treated as female or male from birth.. Neither, really knows. I don’t. My kid also doesn’t come from a traditional kind of upbringing, either which plays a part in this. Yes, he was subjected to a lot of the short-man negativity and as a dancer and not interested in traditional male-dominated sports, he took a lot of shit. Didn’t help that he grew up in a small red-neck town, either. Oh, and the fact that for most of his life, he has had a dyke mother wasn’t easy.

I personally find gender theory freeing myself, even as a butch woman. It has given me a lot of comfort and freed me from many internal conflicts.

But, I do get worked-up when I see the queer community continue to buy into things like men don’t know what women want. This isn’t a product of gender, it is a product of gender-role stereotyping and probably for some, a lack of interpersonal communication skills. It is the same for women and a product of socialization in the main (there are other factors that can be biophysiological).

For me, the perpetuation of gender myths (male & female via binary definitions and behavioral expectations) within a time that finally, gender is being viewed outside of the binary is very sad. Especially sad when this comes from the queer community. I really, honestly, wrestle with this. Also, it gets to me when the same myths are applied to femmes. If there is one thing I have learned, it is that femmes come in all types!

Something else that strikes me is that the transmen (and MtF's) in my life that I know well are feminists and academics. So, I don't believe I have a very accurate picture of the full range of transmen.. or MtF's, really. Although, my early experiences with childhood friends differs from this

[Apocalipstic]

I am Femme and I have little idea of what a feeling actually is or what women want.

People are all different and those differences do not always run on gender lines.