"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[Dylan]

I'm going to be difficult here again

But, um, aren't ALL of our (speaking from a Western POV) definitions and ideas of masculinity and femininity cultural and thus biased?

I mean, if One asks me to define what makes Xperson masculine, I'm only really going to be able to rely on traditional, cultural statements of that definition.

Walking someone home from school and carrying books (using these as examples because they were the last examples to be brought up) are traditional cultural concepts

ANY 'example' or 'definition' of masculinity or femininity are going to be culturally based...as far as I can think of.


And Again, They're Predominately White, Western Based, Because These Ideas Are Not (necessarily) The Same Throughout Other/Each Culture,
Dylan

[BullDog]

Dylan, I agree with you that notions of what is masculine and feminine are culturally based and in Western cultures based on white culture in particular.

Just to be clear, I do think walking girls home from school and carrying their books is a stereotype often associated with masculine courtly or courteous behavior. I just happened to enjoy doing that from a young age.

[Dylan]

Ok, so then, here's where I get completely confused in these conversations

If 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine are culturally based, and

If One believes those cultural bases are misogynist, and

If One is going to scoff 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine

Then why are we always talking about it?

I mean, why aren't we all just happy with who we are? And if we are all happy with who we are/however we are...why are we always talking about this?

I don't mean that in a harsh tone, I mean it seriously. I mean, are we trying to redefine it? What is the ideal outcome of (say) this conversation?

I'm really not trying to be obtuse here.

I mean, are we talking about the ways these 'traditional' ideas are perpetuated in our community? Because I've seen that happen to both femmes and butches, and that's pretty crappy...but then, on the other hand, if traditional ideas are someone's cuppa, then, I have a choice to participate or excuse myself, right? I mean, some people like all that traditional stuff, and some folks don't like all that traditional stuff, right?

I mean, I don't think someone should base their whole 'worth' on some stupid traditional idea of what is or isn't masculine/feminine...and I DO get a bit riled when I see stuff like, "this is how a butch/femme *should* act"

And I do get a little riled up when I see masculine/feminine being equated to what het men/women do...and that's how 'butches and femmes *should* act'

So, is this what we're talking about in this thread

And Atlast brought up that some of the 'traditional' ideas are based in misogyny...can someone please give me an example, so I'm more clear on exactly what we're talking about there? Because, I DO think *some* (notice the little asterisks, please) notions are rooted more in biological differences than 'traditional sexism' (notice the bunny ears, please). Oh, and I'm not saying that just because they may have originally been rooted in biological differences, they're not sexist in today's society.


I Hope This Post Is Clear, Although, I Have My Doubts,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'm going to be difficult here again

But, um, aren't ALL of our (speaking from a Western POV) definitions and ideas of masculinity and femininity cultural and thus biased?

I mean, if One asks me to define what makes Xperson masculine, I'm only really going to be able to rely on traditional, cultural statements of that definition.

Walking someone home from school and carrying books (using these as examples because they were the last examples to be brought up) are traditional cultural concepts

ANY 'example' or 'definition' of masculinity or femininity are going to be culturally based...as far as I can think of.

Absolutely, they are culturally based. And unfortunately, in US culture, we have the perpetuation of white male as the ideal and the one with continued privilege.


And Again, They're Predominately White, Western Based, Because These Ideas Are Not (necessarily) The Same Throughout Other/Each Culture,
Dylan

I think what always gets to me in these conversations is the acceptance of what has been traditionally equated with both masculine and feminine in US culture, yet, we have this whole new gender perspective at our disposal to break these concepts down. In doing so, it seems like we could free so much of what has oppressed us.

Behaviors like carrying books, opening doors, etc. to me, are just part of a person's internal value system or nature and don't have a thing to do with gender identification really. Not the complex nature of gender that I see many friends dealing with if they are struggling with transition issues. Or, for me as a butch woman.

My perfect world would be one that had more of the two-spirit or ideas formed about gender in other cultures that have not been based upon the binary. But, I am stuck with being in the US and growing up with a very oppressive take on not only gender, but gender roles based upon the binary. And this contamination seems to be seeping through to newer ways of viewing gender from a perspective that does not accept a binary system. Where is the progress?

For the record, I want to apologize for my using crap in my initial post on the thread. it was insensitive. I do get worked-up when I see stereotypes of mascilinity and feminity thrown around. But, I should not have said that.