"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[The_Lady_Snow]

Liam..

Yanno it really bothers me when you say....

"It doesn't sound like you are into "traditional" masculinity to me" it makes me cringe when I read it and here is why..

You are assuming, and I wonder if you assume this because I am not the kind of femme who is the little girl, the girly girl, I am that other type of femme, the bossy, toppy, who likes those boys who *bottom* With this may come the assumption that the boy I fuck is not masculine or a real guy because well what real guy wants to be fucked, guys fuck not the other way around.

I feel like I have to defend myself to my southern father who assumes because I am an assertive woman no *gentle* type is going to look my way.. I am being honest your post to me felt a bit like you asserting your masculinity on me.. I don't respond well to chest thumpers and I wanted to be honest with you.

I hope that is not the case and this is not what I am really reading


I can't imagine how many femmes refrain from posting, who will back down from oppresive shit like this, I just can't never have never will...

Do you see how this can be the real silencing, oppressing tool??

[Liam]

The only thing I assumed here, is that this thread was for folks who embrace and like traditional masculine characteristics. My apologies to all, if I am incorrect.

Snowy, your comments earlier led me to believe that you dislike the notion of traditional masculinity, you tossed it out the window and went on to something larger, I thought you found it stifling.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

The only thing I assumed here, is that this thread was for folks who embrace and like traditional masculine characteristics. My apologies to all, if I am incorrect.

Snowy, your comments earlier led me to believe that you dislike the notion of traditional masculinity, you tossed it out the window and went on to something larger, I thought you found it stifling.

I guess that happened long ago for me Liam, the tossing out of *traditional* masculinity. I did not get told I had to be this kind of girl by my folks, Dad tried for a good 6 months gave it up each time I looked at him with the wtf look. So maybe my evolved idea of masculinity is foreign. I mean what is *traditional* masculinity? I am still confused on that, is it the whole guys have the say so? You Tarzan me Jane?

Am I less femme because I ooze masculinity at times? I guess I can see how you were lead to your confusion, I too am confused, do you like the role of being tied into a boxed gender role? Is this why your idea of masculinity is so stiffling to me, because it's kinda oppressing and confining. I am really curious here.

What are these traditions? Who started them? Is it wrong to assume they scream of Male Status startings?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I guess that happened long ago for me Liam, the tossing out of *traditional* masculinity. I did not get told I had to be this kind of girl by my folks, Dad tried for a good 6 months gave it up each time I looked at him with the wtf look. So maybe my evolved idea of masculinity is foreign. I mean what is *traditional* masculinity? I am still confused on that, is it the whole guys have the say so? You Tarzan me Jane?

Am I less femme because I ooze masculinity at times? I guess I can see how you were lead to your confusion, I too am confused, do you like the role of being tied into a boxed gender role? Is this why your idea of masculinity is so stiffling to me, because it's kinda oppressing and confining. I am really curious here.

What are these traditions? Who started them? Is it wrong to assume they scream of Male Status startings?

I think the Catholic Church started the male traditions thing to keep control of the church in the hands of males.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I guess that happened long ago for me Liam, the tossing out of *traditional* masculinity. I did not get told I had to be this kind of girl by my folks, Dad tried for a good 6 months gave it up each time I looked at him with the wtf look. So maybe my evolved idea of masculinity is foreign. I mean what is *traditional* masculinity? I am still confused on that, is it the whole guys have the say so? You Tarzan me Jane?

Am I less femme because I ooze masculinity at times? I guess I can see how you were lead to your confusion, I too am confused, do you like the role of being tied into a boxed gender role? Is this why your idea of masculinity is so stiffling to me, because it's kinda oppressing and confining. I am really curious here.

What are these traditions? Who started them? Is it wrong to assume they scream of Male Status startings?

Your "evolved" idea of masculinity is not at all foreign to me. My notion of traditional masculinity has nothing to do with Tarzan or Jane. I don't think you are less anything, in being who you are. I don't feel tied into a boxed gender role, that must be your perception. Once again, great questions.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Liam

The only thing I assumed here, is that this thread was for folks who embrace and like traditional masculine characteristics. My apologies to all, if I am incorrect.

Snowy, your comments earlier led me to believe that you dislike the notion of traditional masculinity, you tossed it out the window and went on to something larger, I thought you found it stifling.

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Martina

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

Martina, I wasn't suggesting that anyone leave the thread. I thought that the questions would be best in another thread.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

Martina, I wasn't suggesting that anyone leave the thread. I thought that the questions would be best in another thread.

What is the traditional lined example of what this thread is about..

Once again I thought it was a discussion on it, and other forms...

I thought we were discussing how to move away or not from those constricting forms..

[Liam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is the traditional lined example of what this thread is about..

Once again I thought it was a discussion on it, and other forms...

I thought we were discussing how to move away or not from those constricting forms..

I obviously misunderstood what this thread was about, Snowy. Have fun discussing.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

I obviously misunderstood what this thread was about, Snowy. Have fun discussing.

Would of been cool having a dialogue with you, you answering my questions, discussing ideals..

such is life eh?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Liam

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

Originally Posted by Martina

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

I felt like the above post was condescending, silencing and for sure an invitation to leave the thread if one doesn't agree with this poster on traditional masculinity.

So yeah Martina, I feel ya.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Martina

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

Which is one reason I left the dash site. Opinions are great! Slap downs, not so much.
Unsubscribing

[The_Lady_Snow]

So instead of discussing, answering questions everyone unsubscribes?

Anyone out there have an example of Traditional Masculinity??

Bueller??

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So instead of discussing, answering questions everyone unsubscribes?

Anyone out there have an example of Traditional Masculinity??

Bueller??

Does Traditional Family equate Nuclear Family models or are we talking about my Papa and his machismo?

Traditional is very subjective.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So instead of discussing, answering questions everyone unsubscribes?

Anyone out there have an example of Traditional Masculinity??

Bueller??

When I think of traditional masculinity I think of my dad. For the most part he fit the bill. Was the sole breadwinner of the household, your typical white collar dad. My mom did not work until my sis and I were teens. He rarely showed any emotion except anger. He rarely did hugs, watched sports a lot and didn't cook or do any of the housework.
That was the role model for men I was given. By my standards today I don't think it's all that. I think there are lots of ways it can be done better.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by EzeeTiger

When I think of traditional masculinity I think of my dad. For the most part he fit the bill. Was the sole breadwinner of the household, your typical white collar dad. My mom did not work until my sis and I were teens. He rarely showed any emotion except anger. He rarely did hugs, watched sports a lot and didn't cook or do any of the housework.
That was the role model for men I was given. By my standards today I don't think it's all that. I think there are lots of ways it can be done better.

How does this fit you, or does it even fit your way of how you are masculine? Do you feel you have evolved from this example?

Am I being to intrusive?

[Linus]

//Little techie beanie on

Originally Posted by Martina

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

And you know why they did? Because someone reported. I have yet to see a report on this thread. Is there an issue that you think is something a mod or admin need to address? Push the button. However, I have this feeling that this can be sorted amongst yourselves like adults and that a mod doesn't need to come in here

//Little techie beanie off.




On another note: crying. I have discovered why some men don't cry. It's not for a lack of trying but because of a physical limitation to. Prior to being on T, I would tear-up and nearly be sobbing at SPCA commercials. Today, nothing. I can't even try to cry if I wanted to. In general, many of the "swing emotions" seemed dull compared to before T. So in some cases the lack of crying may not be an emotional issue but rather a physical limitation of T (I'm not unique in this, that I can attest to).

Something to add into consideration as a whole when considering that someone might be "emotionally stagnate".

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

//


On another note: crying. I have discovered why some men don't cry. It's not for a lack of trying but because of a physical limitation to. Prior to being on T, I would tear-up and nearly be sobbing at SPCA commercials. Today, nothing. I can't even try to cry if I wanted to. In general, many of the "swing emotions" seemed dull compared to before T. So in some cases the lack of crying may not be an emotional issue but rather a physical limitation of T (I'm not unique in this, that I can attest to).

Something to add into consideration as a whole when considering that someone might be "emotionally stagnate".

This is really interesting to me and I have heard this from friends on T. I have no knowledge concerning any studies about this, however.

The men in my family did cry. Not as much as the women, but, there just wasn't the same stigma attached to men emoting or crying in my ethnic and cultural background. Although, when my dad and brother were in the company of WASP men, I remember thinking they had tuirned into aliens. I'm sure ethnic/cultural perspectives influenced things.

I'm wondering about any cross-ethnic/racial/cultural studies about this? Ones that look at biophysiological aspects between racial/ethnic traits and crying concerning men? Probably for another thread... Just curious if you or anyone else has any info about the physiological structures here across cultures.

Something else that strikes me is the pervasive attachment in our culture that equates the ability to emote with crying. Seems like this is a pretty narrow view as people demonstrate emotions in varied ways no matter what gender they are. And many women (of all butch consellations and well as femmes), have problems with crying.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

This is really interesting to me and I have heard this from friends on T. I have no knowledge concerning any studies about this, however.

The men in my family did cry. Not as much as the women, but, there just wasn't the same stigma attached to men emoting or crying in my ethnic and cultural background. Although, when my dad and brother were in the company of WASP men, I remember thinking they had tuirned into aliens. I'm sure ethnic/cultural perspectives influenced things.

I'm wondering about any cross-ethnic/racial/cultural studies about this? Ones that look at biophysiological aspects between racial/ethnic traits and crying concerning men? Probably for another thread... Just curious if you or anyone else has any info about the physiological structures here across cultures.

Something else that strikes me is the pervasive attachment in our culture that equates the ability to emote with crying. Seems like this is a pretty narrow view as people demonstrate emotions in varied ways no matter what gender they are. And many women (of all butch consellations and well as femmes), have problems with crying.

I haven't seen any physiological studies but in a truly non-scientific manner, in my trans group, when I attended there was a huge spectrum of guys (from all sorts of races, cultures, etc.) and those that were on T seemed to uniformly state the same thing: crying became near impossible, even if one wanted to. Not because of stigma but rather because of T.

I think if they could do more studies on transguys on these kinds of issues, I think it would highlight/spotlight the same issues for non-trans individuals and identify things that are truly culture/societal versus physical. (nature vs. nuture)

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

I haven't seen any physiological studies but in a truly non-scientific manner, in my trans group, when I attended there was a huge spectrum of guys (from all sorts of races, cultures, etc.) and those that were on T seemed to uniformly state the same thing: crying became near impossible, even if one wanted to. Not because of stigma but rather because of T.

I think if they could do more studies on transguys on these kinds of issues, I think it would highlight/spotlight the same issues for non-trans individuals and identify things that are truly culture/societal versus physical. (nature vs. nuture)

Absolutely, there is really not much out there with studies. And I wonder about quite a few that do exist in terms of reliability because the field does not get funded for researchers to replicate studies and develop new theories to look at.

Thinking that actually, the Tg friends that I have heard this from (T and crying/forming tears) are a mix in ethnicity. But, this is just an example from a couple of guys I happen to know in my part of the world. It would seem like if this gets reported often in support groups etc., there is something going on.

Yes, it would help the non-trans and I'm thinking that so much more would be helpful for families and partners of TG folks going through transition together and also just having more info for those considering transitioning.