For the Love of Intentions!!

[julieisafemme]

This is a really interesting thread. I was not sure what GoF was referring to at first and so I went back to see the threads she had started. Yes I can see what she is saying.

I also went back to the old Dash site and looked up my old posts!! Wow was that fun, hilarious, cringe worthy and instructive. I got piled on regularly there. Because I tend to be clueless sometimes the piling did not register with me and I doggedly kept going. I learned a lot from that piling. In some cases I learned that the people I was talking with did not care what my intentions were or just plain did not like them. What do you do then? The Diva referred to this in that there is no right or wrong. That seems to be the way forward.

I do not tend to take piling personally. I know that is not the case for everyone. I am not special or better in that way. It is just how I am, especially here and in writing. Had I been piled on in person I think I would feel very differently.

Does anyone else feel ok with being piled on? Or asked to "do the work"? Is that a bad thing? Is it ok when someone has been around awhile or not? How can others feel comfortable posting but still engage in conversation? By conversation I mean that others might disagree or maybe even not be nice.

I think this conversation goes well beyond this site to include all other social media and face-to-face conversations.

Thank you for starting the the thread GoF!

[Girl_On_Fire]

*beams* Just got back from my weekend away and am so happy to see how this thread is turning out. I think we've got a great discussion going on here!

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Girl_On_Fire

Everything you said made perfect sense to me except for the sentence I quoted. Others to do "the work"? How does this thread ask anyone to do "work" for me?

My intention in starting this post is to figure out what it is about certain posts that trigger what looks like an attack or a written "rolling-of-eyes" so-to-speak.

I think what Words and girl_dee said does answer the question quite well (or part of it anyway).

The reason for the behavior I mentioned above is, from what I understand:

• Honest belief that someone is trying to start an arguement.
• The question has been done to death.
• Based on the life experience of the reader, the words written are genuinely offensive.

It could also be because said offender has a pattern of being offensive and continually entering a gray area, playing devils advocate or plays the innocent uneducated community member. I think that may be what you mean by "honest belief that someone is trying to start an argument" I would like to focus on that. What do you (general you)think that is all about?? What is it that keeps a community member poking at the sore??

Okay, that clears things up a bit. Maybe some could just try to be more aware (as Words suggested) that everyone is at their own different level of education. Perhaps, instead of looking things up online, they need interaction and community to learn. Everybody learns differently and everybody has a different life experience.

I get that people need interaction and community to learn. I did, but I went into it knowing I might get my ass handed to me. Hands on learning can be dirty, painful, and frustrating for everybody, not just the person learning. I think it is ok...it is ok for someone to react in an angry or upset manner when I am being intrusive in their life. We will all be the uninformed people in the room at one time or another in this life. It is ok. There is no hierarchy in communication here or in real time, there are only people that try and people that don't. Those who are willing to listen and those that don't and we all do it differently. Nobody needs to feel bad for how they communicate because people choose to take them that way.

As far as comparing people to animals, that's not literal. Of course I don't think anyone here is an actual vulture. It's an analogy. Vultures pick things apart in a rather painful way. I was painting a picture with words. I'm a writer. That's how my brain works. It wasn't meant to be offensive but to give perspective to how someone on the other end of some of these less-than-welcoming responses might feel.

I will be more specific and I understand it wasn't literal and I am certain you don't think anyone here is an actual vulture or lion. I myself have spent a lifetime having people use animal descriptors to describe me in a not nice way. I have friends and family here that have had animal descriptors used against them to belittle them. Literal or not this is not a book of fiction and the people you are talking about are people I love including myself...i love myself. So here I am a fellow community member asking nicely to please refrain from it. I hope this helps clears up any questions about my intentions. If I can do the same for you just please ask me.

I'm off for the weekend so I won't be able to check this thread but I hope the discussion continues. Maybe it will prompt a deeper look within for some to find out just where some of those 'hair-triggers' might be coming from. I'm no saint and am quite guilty of going off on people if they push my buttons. Because of that, I'm always looking within so I don't end up in that dreaded victim mentality.

Originally Posted by girl_dee

Ohhh the Tap thread, long time ago but yes i remember.

For me when it happens to me, and more so when i was new to the forums, it felt like a personal attack to *me*. i am glad to know that's not true for some others. Hey i'm not saying i didn't learn anything, but the process felt harsh to me.


One thing that is missing from the written word is tone. It's hard to read tone and i admit that i am one that takes things personal. My words sometimes don't reflect my feelings/thoughts. Once i meet someone we can read each other completely different on the forums.

I can relate to this. The Reunion I attended I had a few people tell me I was much nicer than I seemed on the website. After that I came back and reread myself and found I could use some soft skills and I also came to the conclusion that people aren't sitting in the room with me and need to check themselves. We are all accountable.

If something i said is up for challenge, it feels personal to me. i am working on this. i want to assume the person has a good intention, instead i am guilty of taking it personal and getting defensive. Character flaw. .

[COLOR="Red"]I don't think it is a character flaw although I know it has felt that way for me sometimes. It is a rare human that doesn't get defensive about some situation that comes up in life. I know I have and will continue to do so in certain venues of my life.

Originally Posted by thedivahrrrself

I think much of this behavior has to do with people not being willing to look at another person's perspective and understand it. You see through your own glass, and you can't take them off and look through someone else's for a moment.

Take the word "Southern" for example. For me, this word conjures memories of my grandparents, the patchwork quilt of land going by as we drove to them, summers in Georgia spent picking fresh blackberries and making them into pies, stuffing myself with cornbread and delicious food, generous hospitality and impeccable manners. For others, this conjures up memories of a time when the military had to be present just to let a little black girl walk into school. Or how a group of evil parents in Mississippi decided to hold a completely separate prom just so the lesbian wouldn't be invited. One is not right or wrong, they are all true, just a matter of individual perspective. But I have seen this word picked apart in so many threads, like we can all just assume it has only one meaning.

I love all those things about the South you mention and then some. There is a difference between loving things/experiences you can only find in the South and having "Southern Pride". When speaking of the South many/most/all of the debates in this venue have been about "Southern Pride" or the Confederate flag, not because people love certain things they find in the South. There is a thread here to talk about those things we love. I keep those things I love about the South by supporting the venues that offer them to me, not by flying or wearing a flag that is offensive to a large portion of the population.

I myself have not experienced the behavior described above, that I can recall, but I am also pretty good at defending my words and thoughts. I can certainly remember times where I felt someone who maybe just wasn't very good with words appeared to be pummeled into submission (so to speak), where even though I may not have agreed with them, I felt sorry for them. I have no qualms calling out racism, homophobia, etc. but I try to do so in a way that will engage the offender and help them come to some rational conclusion on their own, rather than trying to force my own way of thinking. But I guess I put a lot more faith in the Socratic method than the soapbox.

It is funny because I don't see it as a person getting on a soapbox when they are trying to communicate to someone about a written offense. For me, when a person comes into a space and pontificates or even insinuates something offensive I see them as the person standing on the soapbox and being judgemental. It is not logical to me to blame the person that is having to call out another person on an ism and insinuate they have some "trigger" that makes them behave in a manner that makes a person feel "pummeled". I happen to be one of those people that has been accused of that and I can say that it is an unfair It doesn't warrant bullying inside this venue or outside this venue.

Originally Posted by Novelafemme

This really resonates with me. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Diva. I had to re-read it a couple of times in order to put my finger on something that at first puzzled me. That being the portion I high lighted in blue.

Sometimes it's as if I feel the need to draw a very permanent line in the sand, one that I either stand on one side of or the other (no straddling allowed) and I end up losing sight of precisely what Diva stated. Neither is right or wrong, yet both are true to the individual.

Perhaps what it boils down to for many of us is trigger issues. I know certain topics absolutely push my buttons faster and stronger than others, and I can jump down someone's throat quicker than the time it would take to put a well thought-out, cohesive statement together.

I dare say that if we don't give this issue some careful attention, it could very well be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

For me the camel, straw, back breaking moment is going to be that one time I decide not to call out someone's ism and it goes totally ignored by my other community members, or better yet thanked by fellow community members. I deal with all that yucky stuff in my life at work and my recreational time when out and about. I am pretty direct in most situations even when I am dealing with a client. I am direct here and am not a person that is going to lighten that up in my words because that is not me. Honestly, I feel pretty unwelcome here for reasons that exist outside this venue.

Originally Posted by thedivahrrrself

Novela, I think you are right. We are a small community, and if we can't start trying to bridge our differences, then we will be just as divided as the US political system.

I'm not saying we tolerate blatant racism, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, etc., but that we try to engage to get to the root of it, rather than force people out of the conversation. Through a series of conversations and questions, I once got an 80-year-old Georgia woman to say, "You know you're right, those people really aren't any different from us. They were just born with different colors of skin." If she could change at that age, I believe anyone can. But when we attack rather than try to get them to clarify, we only reinforce their opinions and end up accomplishing nothing.

Gaps do need to be bridged! It has to be a mutual effort. I think people would do themselves a world of good to go back and read, read, read, before they decide to start threads on hot button topics. It is good to know your audience before you get behind the podium for a candid discussion. The part that is bolded I need help with please. What would a person calling out another person on their racism/sexism/homophobia reinforce? Even if said person perceives it as a hostile attack, what would it be reinforcing?

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

This is a really interesting thread. I was not sure what GoF was referring to at first and so I went back to see the threads she had started. Yes I can see what she is saying.

I also went back to the old Dash site and looked up my old posts!! Wow was that fun, hilarious, cringe worthy and instructive. I got piled on regularly there. Because I tend to be clueless sometimes the piling did not register with me and I doggedly kept going. I learned a lot from that piling. In some cases I learned that the people I was talking with did not care what my intentions were or just plain did not like them. What do you do then? The Diva referred to this in that there is no right or wrong. That seems to be the way forward.

I do not tend to take piling personally. I know that is not the case for everyone. I am not special or better in that way. It is just how I am, especially here and in writing. Had I been piled on in person I think I would feel very differently.

Does anyone else feel ok with being piled on? Or asked to "do the work"? Is that a bad thing? Is it ok when someone has been around awhile or not? How can others feel comfortable posting but still engage in conversation? By conversation I mean that others might disagree or maybe even not be nice.

I don't see it as "being piled on" but that my community is giving feedback about my thoughts and opinions. I can recognize that some people don't see it that way and understand some people need to be approached more gently. I have been told to "do the work" when I was younger by a professor and by college mates. It didn't feel like a bad thing. I felt naive and a little behind the progressive space I was in. I don't think that was bad for me, it was a good motivator. It is hard for me to post on anything but fluff anymore and even then I am sometimes turned off by all the passive aggressive posting that goes on. It is an effort to navigate around that sometimes. It is not fun watching people get in trouble and brings me no personal pleasure. My point is, people behaving badly does not just occur in conversations where people are engaged in a debate. I treat threads like Vegas, "What happens in a thread, stays in a thread.". What I mean is if I have a disagreement with somebody I don't plan to hold on to that and not like that person and not be friendly.

I think this conversation goes well beyond this site to include all other social media and face-to-face conversations.

I agree, we are all so interconnected that if I do happen to come in contact with a member on the outside I genuinely don't hold on to stuff and want to have a positive interaction unless the member has made it clear they don't want contact with me. That has happened too and I am ok with that because I respect peoples boundaries. Great questions and great post julieisafemme.

Thank you for starting the the thread GoF!

I generally don't want to think people have bad intentions behind the things they talk about. I also don't think people reacting to it have bad intentions either. I also realize how much work our community needs to do surrounding all the ism's and continue to have that fact reinforced everyday. Focusing on that is just as important as policing the posting styles of our community members and trying to assign them some sort of deficit for reacting to something negative.

[Medusa]

I have so many thoughts around this.

Couple of things: Does dogpiling happen? Yep. Do folks sometimes say stupid shit and then get all defensive about it when people call them out on it? Yep.
Can we *all* do a better job of listening before we react? Yep.

A couple of things I have observed about perception in my years in this particular B/F/T community (going on 14 years now) is that 2 things seem to happen with regularity.

1. Someone says something stupid, gets called out on it, defends it, gets called out by more folks, defends it even more and messier, folks get pissed at one another, someone is a "bully", a member of a "clique", or a "gang", and before you know it, sides are taken and the whole thing is a hot mess.

2. Someone says something stupid, someone gets really pissed about it and calls them out in a shitty way, the person is truly sorry about it and owns that they should have thought about it more, the mad person won't let it go, sides get taken again and the whole thing is a hot mess.

The really frustrating thing that has happened in the past several times is that this has sometimes escalated to "The Space" somehow becoming responsible for what an individual said.

Who has the responsibility in a situation like this:

New member comes to the site, identifies as a Femme, starts a thread entitled "Where are all the rich Butches?!" and proceeds to post about how they are tired of encountering Butches who don't have jobs or live with their Momma.

What if someone feels like they are being really classist and says, "Hey, maybe money isn't the most important thing in the world! I think you are really missing out on some good people because you are being super classist about this and shallow"

Commence argument.

I think some of the frustration I have seen comes when folks seem unwilling to examine their privileges or narrow-minded idealism. This is not to say that folks don't get to have desires. I'm all for that! But what if their desire is couched in denigrating other people's ways of being?
(Thinking about how discussions on loving BBW Femmes often includes sizist anti-thin comments or how discussions about Butches often has commentary around "eeewwwwwwwww" for Butches who date other Butches)


There is another component here that I'd like to mention around intent. Some folks have been around a long, long time and have finely-honed bullshit detectors. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing when folks call bullshit on a brand new person showing up on the site, getting super familiar with lots of folks, claiming to be a millionaire a doctor or a pilot, and having several different weird stories around their life that don't add up.

Why? Because it's happened 100 times.

So are some folks jaded? You bet your ass.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Wasn't able to quote directly from weatherboi so I'll just copy and paste:

It could also be because said offender has a pattern of being offensive and continually entering a gray area, playing devils advocate or plays the innocent uneducated community member. I think that may be what you mean by "honest belief that someone is trying to start an argument" I would like to focus on that. What do you (general you)think that is all about?? What is it that keeps a community member poking at the sore??

I don't like the sentence, "plays the innocent uneducated community member". I think this makes too much of a judgement on the part of the "general you". I agree there are plenty of people out there who like to start stuff just to start stuff. For no other reason than to pull the pin on a grenade and watch the chaos. I'm also sure there are plenty of other people (like myself) who genuinely don't realize when they're being offensive in a post due to lack of education, misunderstanding, etc. The sentence implies that everyone knows better and I think this is one of the primary reasons for the jumping of the gun that goes on in some of these threads.

For people like me (and I'm not the only one, I've seen it on other posts I didn't start) it can be like being sucker-punched in the stomach to see a vehement response filled with exclamation marks and accusations and all-caps.

That could send a young, naive, uneducated, socially-clueless, and/or what-have-you person running for the hills right away with no dialogue actually having transpired. Trust me when I tell you from years of experience, this is incredibly damaging and confusing.

Again, not everybody is genuinely clueless. However, in my line of thinking, unless the thread topic starts with something like, "I Think all Queer People Should Die" it would help to take a deep breath and ask a few questions of the person before taking out the verbal hatchet.

Think of it this way, if somebody really is trying to start something, they'll get bored pretty quickly by benign responses and questions and escalate immediately. Then you'll know how it was meant and will be able to respond accordingly.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Girl_On_Fire

Wasn't able to quote directly from weatherboi so I'll just copy and paste:

It could also be because said offender has a pattern of being offensive and continually entering a gray area, playing devils advocate or plays the innocent uneducated community member. I think that may be what you mean by "honest belief that someone is trying to start an argument" I would like to focus on that. What do you (general you)think that is all about?? What is it that keeps a community member poking at the sore??

I don't like the sentence, "plays the innocent uneducated community member". I think this makes too much of a judgement on the part of the "general you". I agree there are plenty of people out there who like to start stuff just to start stuff. For no other reason than to pull the pin on a grenade and watch the chaos. I'm also sure there are plenty of other people (like myself) who genuinely don't realize when they're being offensive in a post due to lack of education, misunderstanding, etc. The sentence implies that everyone knows better and I think this is one of the primary reasons for the jumping of the gun that goes on in some of these threads.

I am not implying that all people know better. I have seen some community members here string along many people in the community including myself. One especially comes to mind, she claimed to be a physics student and professional football player. She was new and everybody tip toed around all her nonsense for quite some time until it was revealed she was just here to create chaos.


For people like me (and I'm not the only one, I've seen it on other posts I didn't start) it can be like being sucker-punched in the stomach to see a vehement response filled with exclamation marks and accusations and all-caps.

Understood, I can see where perceived harshness could feel yucky to you if that is your reaction. I don't take exclamation points or ALL CAPS as symbolizing a vehement response. Accusations are different, because that requires being able to defend written thoughts that are either being misunderstood or not. I think when we start threads we need to be prepared for anything because there are many members here that participate and not all people participate the same.

That could send a young, naive, uneducated, socially-clueless, and/or what-have-you person running for the hills right away with no dialogue actually having transpired. Trust me when I tell you from years of experience, this is incredibly damaging and confusing.

Well, we all have things that come up and send us running. We all have things in life that can be damaging and confusing. I have trained myself to stay out of those arenas when I am not prepared to handle the heated debate or the feedback. Nobody but ourselves can police what is good for us and what isn't. We can't expect total strangers to change themselves in this venue if they are playing by the rules and following the TOS.

Again, not everybody is genuinely clueless. However, in my line of thinking, unless the thread topic starts with something like, "I Think all Queer People Should Die" it would help to take a deep breath and ask a few questions of the person before taking out the verbal hatchet.

Think of it this way, if somebody really is trying to start something, they'll get bored pretty quickly by benign responses and questions and escalate immediately. Then you'll know how it was meant and will be able to respond accordingly.

This is not my experience. Usually for me, the benign approach escalates because the person is not receiving the kind of attention they were seeking. I have seen it happen in a thread and I have seen it happen to someone that gets singled out by a person. You can treat them benignly, nonchalantly, call them out or any number of ways to try and handle it gently, but if the person is set on getting the community or one community members attention it can turn ugly if they are doing so by crossing boundaries. Understand I do not have you in mind when I am talking about people doing this.

I am not really comfortable expecting members to post a certain way if they aren't breaking any TOS rules. I can only control what I post. I am comfortable if a community member requests something from me, I have no problem trying to accommodate them to the best of my ability if it is a reasonable request.

[Medusa]

I've mentioned this a couple of times in other discussions in the past but I feel like it's a good add-on to this discussion.

I got dog-piled 13 years ago on the Dash site and have never forgotten it! LOL

I was in my early 20s and was fairly new to the Butch/Femme dynamic (or at least naming it that, I had always dated masculine women....except for that one girl, and that's a different thread!). Anyway, I found a thread on the Dash site and there was some heated debate going on with more seasoned folks about whether or not Trans men belonged in Butch/Femme space.

YES, that discussions actually happened. YES, people were pissed.

Anyway, I was trying to wade through the cyber-slaps to see what people were actually saying and got so frustrated with the constant negativity and personal jabs that I made some foolish comment like, "Good God, we're all women here! Can't we just get along?"

I was immediately handed my ass by Toughy, Heart, and a couple of other folks!

Oh, I pouted my ass off and was mad as hell!!! How dare these people try to school me on anything! Who were they after all to talk to me like I was stupid!!

Looking back, they weren't rude to me at all. They were, however, very direct (and one of the group was pretty aggressive) and informed me that No, not ALL folks on the site were women and that I needed to think about my remarks and how it erased folks.

And I sat back and was all, "WTF do you mean we aren't all women???? Do we have vaginas or not??"

And then commence my education on how sex organs do not equal gender!
And then commence my education on how Trans men are part of the continuum of gender that I needed to learn about!
And then commence me being really, really reticent to get involved in any heavy discussions for a good long while.

Having your ass handed to you by folks out in the wide open is often not very fun and can even feel humiliating. Thing is, that's just ego talking!
I took that experience and learned from it and consider both Toughy and Heart not only my friends but my elders (in the respect that they were way more knowledgeable about gender and identity than I ever dreamed to be!)

Folks have a choice with how they digest information. They can get really defensive and butthurt and sull up or they can consider the information to see if they think it has any merit. And this isn't saying that everyone who calls you out on something is worthy of listening to, because let's face it, some folks are full of fucking shit and can't examine their own shit much less someone else's.

But if several folks are saying it? It's worth a listen!

There is a line where you can still listen to what folks have to say, respect it as best you can, but not accept it or digest it.
Good example for me is folks who are a certain slant of political party. I might think that folks who wanted Sarah Palin or Donald Trump for President are complete and utter idiots but I'll give them a listen to see why they feel that way. Because not all of them are idiots. Some of them are racists and some of them are sexist assholes and still further, some of them havent done any research at all on what Sarah Palin stands for but think that having a woman anything in political office is a grand thing.

It's always tough to see people defending their right to be racist or sizist. And even harder still when the folks defending their racism try to paint the folks calling them out as "bullies" or a "gang". I think about how much energy it takes to be defensive versus how much energy it takes to just listen.

[Girl_On_Fire]

I think it all boils down to how you respond, not what you say. If someone says something that is offensive to you, calling them out on it and pointing out how it could be offensive could actually be very beneficial to the poster. It's when someone reacts as though the information is "already known" that gets under my skin like so much sand in my bathing suit. And this is whether it's directed at me or not. I'm an underdog so I'm a fighter for the underdog.

Then again, I'd make a lousy lawyer because I truly believe people are simply making simple social errors when they post "cringe-worthy" threads or responses to threads. I want to take them aside and gently tell them they have their social skirt tucked into their pantyhose. I can't let anyone walk around with egg on their face. I can only think back to the times before I discovered I had Asperger's and would walk around with my foot permanently crammed into my mouth and had no earthly clue why I was losing friends, jobs, etc. right and left.

If only, I've said for years, if ONLY someone had taken me aside and explained what I was doing wrong. If only someone had seen my intentions instead of my behavior.

I think this life experience has given me a unique experience and a particular sensitivity when I believe anyone else's intentions might be being misunderstood.

The entire reason for this post was to make a suggestion to the general you to, the next time you see a post that makes you want to fire with both barrels, stop and put yourself in the other person's shoes for a moment before responding. At least on a public forum, you can do that. If someone says something insulting in front of you, it's much harder to control your reaction.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

It is funny because I don't see it as a person getting on a soapbox when they are trying to communicate to someone about a written offense. For me, when a person comes into a space and pontificates or even insinuates something offensive I see them as the person standing on the soapbox and being judgemental. It is not logical to me to blame the person that is having to call out another person on an ism and insinuate they have some "trigger" that makes them behave in a manner that makes a person feel "pummeled". I happen to be one of those people that has been accused of that and I can say that it is an unfair It doesn't warrant bullying inside this venue or outside this venue.


For me the camel, straw, back breaking moment is going to be that one time I decide not to call out someone's ism and it goes totally ignored by my other community members, or better yet thanked by fellow community members. I deal with all that yucky stuff in my life at work and my recreational time when out and about. I am pretty direct in most situations even when I am dealing with a client. I am direct here and am not a person that is going to lighten that up in my words because that is not me. Honestly, I feel pretty unwelcome here for reasons that exist outside this venue.


I generally don't want to think people have bad intentions behind the things they talk about. I also don't think people reacting to it have bad intentions either. I also realize how much work our community needs to do surrounding all the ism's and continue to have that fact reinforced everyday. Focusing on that is just as important as policing the posting styles of our community members and trying to assign them some sort of deficit for reacting to something negative.

All this post resonates with me but I highlighted the specific areas that really touched me. When someone comes into a forum and posts something racist, sexist, classist, misogynistic, or in some way blatantly offensive they may not be doing it to stir up shit or for any nefarious reason other than that is how they really feel. They may not be aware that they are being offensive. I don't think that changes the fact that they actually are being offensive. It always feels unfair to me that a person has to read those offensive words, feel all the yucky ways that stuff makes one feel, make a decision not to take the easy road and remain silent but to speak out, point out the problem explaining why it is offensive and then be attacked and labeled as someone who is always making a big deal out of stuff. To quote weatherboi "It is not logical to me to blame the person that is having to call out another person on an ism and insinuate they have some "trigger" that makes them behave in a manner that makes a person feel "pummeled"."

I think it is important to ask people to be responsible for their words. It's not fair to say things and then when someone asks you to be accountable for what you are saying and to look at the implications of your words that you accuse them of attacking you or pummeling you.

I think it is just as important to call out this stuff in one's online community as it is to call it out in the real world. I would never allow someone to throw racist, sexist, classist etc comments around me unchallenged in my everyday life, why should I allow it in my online community.

Again to quote Weatherboi "Focusing on that is just as important as policing the posting styles of our community members and trying to assign them some sort of deficit for reacting to something negative."

Asking people to be accountable is like taking a stroll through a minefield. I certainly wouldn't do it if I didn't believe in my heart that it is the right thing to do. I don't know why people feel like being asked to look at the things they are saying is such a terrible thing. Or why they think it is a judgment against them as a person. Maybe that is something we should examine. Everybody says something that is offensive to someone at some point. We all have blind spots. That's what other people can do for you. They can show you where you are failing to see something clearly or where you are failing to take into account the way your words can effect others, the way you can be unclear on the implications of what you are saying. That's not a bad thing. It can facilitate personal growth. I don't know why someone who helps facilitate the opportunity for growth is seen in such a negative light. I am grateful for each and every person who has helped me grow. I'm not saying growth isn't painful but it's the growth that is causing the pain not the person trying to illuminate a blind spot.

[Nic]

Still figuring out how to quote things and not much time.

As a new member of the community I've spent a fair amount of time reading rather than posting. Reading some of the hot topic left me with the feeling that some of the more experienced folks occasionally get tired of being the sign posts for enlightenment.

"Do the work" is a great phrase. Makes sense to ask people to be accountable, naive or not. In a defensive frame of mind (everyone has it from time to time) it might sound like an accusation rather than a request or suggestion.

Privilege is my trigger. I'm an ass about it. I try to be gentle about naivete but I can come on like a 2 x 4 swinging a 4 x 6 when people are being malicious. Don't mind it either. Keeps me warm at night. Also recognize that I have privilege of my own. Takes an awake head to be in both spaces at once. Who wants to be a hypocrite?

In situations where I'm the old hand who's tired of hearing the same tired argument, -ism, whatever, I leave the enlightenment debate to people with more patience. I don't need to be the sign post everyday. Some days I can just be a post. No signs.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

This is a really interesting thread. I was not sure what GoF was referring to at first and so I went back to see the threads she had started. Yes I can see what she is saying.

I also went back to the old Dash site and looked up my old posts!! Wow was that fun, hilarious, cringe worthy and instructive. I got piled on regularly there. Because I tend to be clueless sometimes the piling did not register with me and I doggedly kept going. I learned a lot from that piling. In some cases I learned that the people I was talking with did not care what my intentions were or just plain did not like them. What do you do then? The Diva referred to this in that there is no right or wrong. That seems to be the way forward.

I do not tend to take piling personally. I know that is not the case for everyone. I am not special or better in that way. It is just how I am, especially here and in writing. Had I been piled on in person I think I would feel very differently.

Does anyone else feel ok with being piled on? Or asked to "do the work"? Is that a bad thing? Is it ok when someone has been around awhile or not? How can others feel comfortable posting but still engage in conversation? By conversation I mean that others might disagree or maybe even not be nice.

I think this conversation goes well beyond this site to include all other social media and face-to-face conversations.

Thank you for starting the the thread GoF!

Being piled on... It happened to me in a red zone topic. i was not taken to task but SO many people spoke out in opposition of my standpoint. i stopped posting and started listening. i kept thinking, how can so many people be wrong? Then i realized, Holy Heck its me who has it wrong!

Then i was driving to work and a light bulb went off. i had to unwire and rewire my thought process around the subject and i did, and i felt good about it. Seeing things from others' perspective is not as easy as it sounds. i was completely humbled by it all.

i was SO glad for that experience, i still am.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

Being piled on... It happened to me in a red zone topic. i was not taken to task but SO many people spoke out in opposition of my standpoint. i stopped posting and started listening. i kept thinking, how can so many people be wrong? Then i realized, Holy Heck its me who has it wrong!

Then i was driving to work and a light bulb went off. i had to unwire and rewire my thought process around the subject and i did, and i felt good about it. Seeing things from others' perspective is not as easy as it sounds. i was completely humbled by it all.

i was SO glad for that experience, i still am.

Yeah that has happened to me a lot! Just recently in the Miley Cyrus thread and talking about appropriation. That is why I come here!

Sometimes people are nice about it and sometimes they are not. I am ok with that.

Miss Tick mentioned that sometimes the naive question can be hurtful. Not intentionally so but hurtful nonetheless. There are no stupid questions but there are stupid places to ask them. I was told quite clearly that my white person musings were hurtful and that it would be best to take those up with other white people or read some Tim Wise. In other words...do the work! So my intentions really did not mean much in this situation.

I don't hold anyone responsible for my learning or my feelings and social interaction. That is on me. While it is admirable to try and be kind and patient always towards all it is not realistic. If you ask a question you have to be prepared for the answer. Or for someone not wanting to answer.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

If you ask a question you have to be prepared for the answer. Or for someone not wanting to answer.

Exactly.

If someone, whether brand spanking new or well-seasoned, asks a question or brings up a topic, they need to be well aware that they have no control over the responses received and they need to be prepared to accept what follows.

They might not agree with how the discussion flows or with other viewpoints, but if you open a door, you have to expect daylight to come in. Otherwise, you are living in the dark ages.