Friendship Circles: Gender Differences in How We Do It?

[Nat]

Awesome thread idea subscribed! Was just discussing this topic today with a butch friend. I guess more specifically if butches tended to possibly be more likely to be loners than femmes. And why local b/f community is so small.

[Gráinne]

I really hope I don't get my head taken off for this. I am absolutely not equating Butch=male or Femme=female.

Interestingly, my son (13) and I got into a discussion this morning about how his sister operates around her friends, and how he acts around his. He's noticed that my daughter is all text, text, text or call, call, call, or talk, talk talk!

His idea of "communication"? Wrestling. They settle any disputes, pissing contests, etc. by wrestling, and all is settled.

I bring that up because I'm sincerely asking if anyone has ever noticed that though many Butches identify as female, and the same with many Femmes, if Butches tend to communicate much more non-verbally than Femmes. I've noticed that many of my Femme friends are, shall we say, verbose, and some of the Butches that I have met are not.

And if Butches and Femmes, even if just a few, follow the same dynamics as my son and daughter, does that imply that social conditioning plays a much bigger role in communication than biology?

I hope to hell that wasn't an offensive question.

[Dreamer]

I have read this thread and what Julie had to say about our conversations, and she is right, I will ask her each day who she has spoken to and how they are doing and yes when she asks me the same question I will usually respond with No I have not but I should get onto that. I have sat here going through my mind why I do not tend to call people and many thoughts have gone through it.

For me I have a few people I would call close friends. When I was living in San Francisco we would get together and I had an amazing time just hanging out, getting to know and having fun with them. When I had to leave and come back to Australia it was like coming back to another world, San Francisco was the first place I could truly be who I was, I let the butch out and I felt alive and finally free to be me. Then when I came back here it was totally different and it was hard, I felt like part of me was left in the States and it was only when I went back to visit or Julie came to me that I felt reconnected to myself.

I did not want to let go of the friendships I had made in the States but due to some personal situations and the fact that I no longer felt that I was doing anything that was worth talking about (at least from my side) I let them slide. I own that and I am sorry that I did, but hopefully that will change once I return.

Most of the friends I made were actually other butches/Ftm’s, I was able to relax around them a lot more and being new to the butch/femme dynamic I must say I was pretty shy around the femmes.
I am really glad that Julie has other femmes that she can talk to, that she can talk to them about anything and that they can help her still feel connected and remind her of who she is, she needs that occasionally.

[Martina]

I don't have butch friends or femme friends of gay friends or straight friends. I have friends. Gender is irrelevant. I actually have a diverse group of friends. Most of my life, most of my friends have been guys, and most of those straight. But they are as different from one another as it's possible for people to be. What they tend to have in common is that they are decent, kind, and down-to-earth. And they tend to be smart and moderately to very well educated. I don't seek that out, but that's what sticks. I guess that's who I feel most comfortable with.

I have a very close femme friend. I do not interact any differently with her than I do with other friends. We are also very very different as femmes and date very very different kinds of butches. We talk politics, history, work (especially teaching), food, and just about the daily wonders and challenges of life. I talk those things with all my friends, except the one who is on the autism spectrum. He has flat affect and doesn't experience too much wonder (strangely, he is in an artistic profession). But he is funny as hell and incredibly well read (and remembers it all). And we do talk food (both being food addicts).

I don't interact any differently with female friends than I do with male. If people don't like to talk, we're not likely to be friends. And I have certainly found chatty friends of every gender. The three close straight cis-gendered men friends I have are the most feminist people I know -- and it's not affected. It's in the bones. They truly respect women. Good good people. Sane, funny, loving. Wonderful fathers. I don't have to occlude any part of who I am to be around them. If I did, I wouldn't waste time on the friendship.

The whole "femme friend" thing makes me cringe. I get being understood by people who are like you. But I don't think of femmes and butches in terms of the "girls" and the "guys." The ones I like don't really fit into those categories very neatly. And at my age, I am not exploring my own gender identity. I don't need to see others like myself to feel at home with myself. I don't decompress especially in butch-femme company or even in queer company. I do with close friends, many of whom are queer. But not all. I actually don't find that I have a ton in common with people who strongly identify as butch or femme, people for whom it is a primary identifier.

I don't behave differently around one gender than the other. In fact, I have been criticized for that by butches. There is sometimes the expectation that femmes will flirt with and flatter all butches. I am interested romantically and/or sexually in very few people. I do not treat an entire category of people like potential dates. They are not. A very few people are potential dates. Also, I do not need most butches to see ME as someone they'd like to date. How exhausting would that be?

I have a pretty good butch friend. She has more friends than I will ever have. She has a gift for intimacy, I always tell her. She's also beautiful -- and she works at it. She also loves to shop and CARES about clothes. She and I rarely talk about that stuff because I don't care about it, but that is very much part of who she is. She does not isolate or care about sports or vehicles. She is a hot smart butch, and she doesn't let anyone tell her what that should mean to her.

[Julie]

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing. For so many of us, we have come here to this space for the connection of others who share a life many of us live. Be it Femme, Butch, Trans, Queer, Lesbian, Bisexual or any of the other identifiers that a person holds or doesn't hold. But the fact is, this space is safe, because we are understood without explanation. At least this has been the case for me. And in real life, be it on the telephone or over coffee... It is comfortable and safe for me. One of the many reasons why the BFP Reunion is so important for me. There, I can get dressed for an evening of elegance and end the night with my people in my pajama's. And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am, regardless if we will be friends outside of that space.

I am grateful for my "Femme friends," and I am grateful for my butch, trans, straight and other friends who are in my life. But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

I most definitely have different relationships with femme's vs. straight women. Not that one is more important than the other. I believe we are dynamic in nature. It is about communication and speaking the same language.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Julie

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing.

I don't cringe at having femme friends. I cringe at the whole "girlfriends" thing, the labeling of some friends by gender. Girlfriends vs. what? Friends? Not boyfriends surely. Does that mean they are supposed to provide certain kinds of support or even share a certain kind of gender performance? I have friends who are femme, not femme friends.

Originally Posted by Julie

And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am. . . . But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

Yeah, I don't get this. My close close friend who is femme does not "get" me any better than my straight male friend. They both "get" me, the particular person who is me. I have ID'd as femme since the early eighties. I have explored my gender identity as much as most people in our community, although certainly less than many. But, no, I do not think that other femmes live my life just because they are femme. Very likely they do not, in fact. I may ID as femme. But my relationships do not conform enough to a pattern that I can say that other femmes live my life.

HoneyB had a great rant on this once. I am too lazy to go find it. It may not be here anyway.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Martina

I don't cringe at having femme friends. I cringe at the whole "girlfriends" thing, the labeling of some friends by gender. Girlfriends vs. what? Friends? Not boyfriends surely. Does that mean they are supposed to provide certain kinds of support or even share a certain kind of gender performance? I have friends who are femme, not femme friends.

Cringing is a strong word and holds a negative connotation. No, it does not imply they are supposed to do anything. Personal relationships are simply that, they are personal and all relationships people hold should be honored and respected. How a person defines those relationships should be respected by all people. Unless of course, the person feels the need to judge.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Julie

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing. For so many of us, we have come here to this space for the connection of others who share a life many of us live. Be it Femme, Butch, Trans, Queer, Lesbian, Bisexual or any of the other identifiers that a person holds or doesn't hold. But the fact is, this space is safe, because we are understood without explanation. At least this has been the case for me. And in real life, be it on the telephone or over coffee... It is comfortable and safe for me. One of the many reasons why the BFP Reunion is so important for me. There, I can get dressed for an evening of elegance and end the night with my people in my pajama's. And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am, regardless if we will be friends outside of that space.

I am grateful for my "Femme friends," and I am grateful for my butch, trans, straight and other friends who are in my life. But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

I most definitely have different relationships with femme's vs. straight women. Not that one is more important than the other. I believe we are dynamic in nature. It is about communication and speaking the same language.

Julie-

You pretty much nailed the crux of how I feel about some of my friendships with Femmes. I've never sought out Femmes as friends per se, merely had friendships happen organically (as I feel they should for me) but there is definitely something super sacred about that space that is created between two Femmes. (speaking, of course, from my real-world, real-time, actual lived experience)

You and I have had long discussions about desire that feel almost like a "twin" language. I don't have those kinds of discussions with my straight women friends, my male friends, or my Butch friends. Sometimes because e don't get that part of one another and sometimes because it's not safe space.

For me, the space *is* different with Femmes in friendship. Different in wonderful, powerful ways. And I keep coming back to those spaces over and over because something resonates so hard there. I have the ability to hang out on Facebook or in real-time spaces when I want/seek/am amenable to mixed space (mixed space speaking of genders, id's, ways of being). I come back to the Planet over and over (and have enjoyed spaces like the Planet for years) because there IS difference in these spaces and your random "I Love Cooking" websites. You get that, I know. <3

[Medusa]

And I'll add: To me, the term "girlfriends" actually feels very honoring.

[pajama]

I'm a hermit. I have lots of acquaintances that I will talk about anything with (because I don't hold much back). But when I am really at odds with myself and need a support system, I would only turn to two, maybe three people.

I HATE...nay LOATHE...talking on a telephone. But I will hold elaborate text conversations with you if you like. I do not require speaking to my friends regularly.

I've never made close friendships. Not when I was straight, not lesbian, not femme, not queer, I just don't make/require close friends. I usually stay in my head. So I don't know that I will help with decyphering the butch/femme friendship dilemma.

But it's been interesting so far.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

But I HATE talking on the phone. hate-hate-hate it.

I spend a lot of time talking on the phone and/or schmoozing people in my jobs, the last thing I want to do when I get home is talk on the phone or have to sustain a conversation with someone that I am not close to.

Most of my closest people know that the best way to reach me is via text message or email. Text communications feel a little less demanding and invasive to me, they give me some space and time to reply. I can finish cooking dinner or watching a program or reading a chapter - before I reply. I can really take some time to think about how I feel, what I want or how I wish to reply - before I do.

Time feels so precious and so fleeting some days that I'm relieved to put my phone on the charger in the other room and be unencumbered for a couple of hours.

This, this, this!

I too spend a lot of my day on the phone and I don't want to spend a lot of my night on the phone also, even if it's with people I enjoy conversing with. I've also, from work, gotten into the habit of multitasking when I'm on the phone but most folks don't like being on speakerphone (understandably, as I hate it too but I'm not sure if it's a speakerphone issue or a phone issue) and that's the best way to get me for a long conversation. Let me be busy while we talk. Trust me, I'm listening.

Originally Posted by Gráinne

Interestingly, my son (13) and I got into a discussion this morning about how his sister operates around her friends, and how he acts around his. He's noticed that my daughter is all text, text, text or call, call, call, or talk, talk talk!

His idea of "communication"? Wrestling. They settle any disputes, pissing contests, etc. by wrestling, and all is settled.

I bring that up because I'm sincerely asking if anyone has ever noticed that though many Butches identify as female, and the same with many Femmes, if Butches tend to communicate much more non-verbally than Femmes. I've noticed that many of my Femme friends are, shall we say, verbose, and some of the Butches that I have met are not.

And if Butches and Femmes, even if just a few, follow the same dynamics as my son and daughter, does that imply that social conditioning plays a much bigger role in communication than biology?

I hope to hell that wasn't an offensive question.

Social conditioning does play into it, as do personal traits.

I've got male and/or masculine energied friends that talk their feelings and emotions out and express their feelings verbally as well as physically with their friends but they are far in between. I can count them on one hand.

I have one straight ally that I've had in my life since middle school. She's my best friend and will be forever and a day and we always pick up right where we left off like time just dissolved away. She doesn't always understand me like a femme friend would but she's super supportive and as 'there' for me as a mother and stepmother, student, daughter and employee can be there for someone. We communicate best in very long emails due to time constraints on both sides. We say all we need to say at that moment and the other gets the chance to really soak in what is being said and what is being asked of them, because when we communicate, we're asking something of the other person. Whether you get it remains to be seen.

Some of my femme friends are more telephone oriented than I am but most are perfectly content to text and email and play around here until we can see one another in person. Then I get to squish them and soak up their yumminess.

Most of the butches and guys I am friends with here are more along the lines of 'touch and go' or a one line zinger. BAM! Say it/do it, it's done, let's move on. Not bad. Not good. Just quick connections, which is fine with me. If I needed more from any of them, I think that I could get it but that's how we flow.

Like a couple of people have said, I tend to work things out on my own. I like connections but on my own terms. When I need to bounce something off of someone, I have people that I know I could go to and they would offer my very good advice or give me a solid shoulder to lean on.

I have friends. Some really close ones. But not tons. I find the more friends I have, the less I am able to give each of them, so I'd rather give more of myself to less people. It feels more genuine.

[Gráinne]

I forgot to answer the question as it pertained to me :P.

I'll have to admit that sometimes I am envious of the femme friendships here, to say nothing of the butch-femme romantic partnerships, and I don't know that I'll ever "get there". I know that there's a long history way before this site, and I'm relatively new. Still, it can be hard. I know I'm welcomed and hopefully well liked by most, but I'm not in the "inner circle". I don't have that sense of intimacy, yet.

Part of this is because I call myself "Bones Lite". The character on the TV show seems to exaggerate her awkwardness and lack of social skills for comedic effect, but I can be somewhat like her. Hopefully not rude or too outspoken as she is sometimes, but the kind of banter, openness, and intimacy that most women enjoy with one another (and that Angela in the show seems to want in her friendship with Bones) does not come easily for me. I'm not good at light teasing and joking, and am painfully shy with people I don't know well. I grew up in a very formal family, so the kind of verbal jousting in most conversations does not come naturally to me.
That's not to say I don't treasure the friendships I have formed here, with all genders and ID's. I'm sort of the "universal donor" of friends .

Off site, my best friends are twins (with each other), and we've been friends for 47 years! Both live 1,000 miles from me (and from one another), and months may go by before we call, but we pick up like we spoke yesterday. Both are married and religious, and well, I'm here, but it didn't matter. When I came out to one, she said "I knew that". I don't remember either of them getting on me about finding a boyfriend or dating in high school, even though both of them were usually in a relationship. I was accepted, even if I didn't know I was gay.

I wish I knew how to "do" friendship better, and maybe I can learn, but I can't be what I'm not wired for. Thinking about this thread, I believe the social roles I was driving at earlier play some part, but personality traits and ability to be open and intimate are probably way up there, if not moreso, than gender or ID.

[RockOn]

Oh good. I just read where Medusa made a reply and said we can have multiple answers.

Interesting topic! I will come back and do the survey but one thing is for sure. I hate a telephone when a conversation goes over 5 minutes. Sometime in the past year a butch bud of mine remembers how I would answer my phone back in the late 80s ... it was "speak and be brief" ... my bud spoke the truth about me.

[Luv]

I'm all over the map here. With my femme friends I can talk for hours on the phone..with my bitch/trans buddies its usually to the point..but it depends on the person.My closest friends are femmes.

[girl_dee]

i don't have any femme friends here, but have some androgynous folks i go back with a long way that i connect with about every week, and a couple of butch friends.

i REALLY long for a femme bestie, a close friend here, in person, even to see once in a while.. i am very selective and don't let people get close to me easily.

But as far as friends go i don't care about gender

[imperfect_cupcake]

I get what Martina was saying. My friends are my friends and I don't like gender labeling them. I did think this was great before I left for the UK, but once I got to a place where sorting people into "gets me" by gender didn't work (too much variance) it was really, really pointless.

I have extremely close friends that are: trans, intersex, femme (of the "meh" ID kind, meaning yeah, I'm femme, meh), butches (of the afore mentioned meh), some who are quite proud of their ID but other than when they are shouting it on the stage really never ever bring it up, some who call themselves "dolly mixture/liqourice all sorts", butch (of the strongly ID'd but not really into dicussing it too much as it seems a bit moot), bisexual cis queerdos, I can go on.

I just don't ever say "this is my femme friend" as tbh they would find it just as weird as if I introduced them as "my lesbian woman female friend".

I don't see femme as a point of pride. I'm not ashamed of it. It just is. kinda like my tits. It's there, it's what it is, it's perfectly acceptable and ... meh.

So although I don't cringe when people do it, it does seem "foreign and clunky" and not really something I can relate to much. I know I used to... but I don't really have that anymore.

My friends are more divided, to be honest, in my head, by introvert/extrovert scales. I can talk to my friends who are butch about fashion and politics just like my mates who are femme. And my cis straight bloke mates are THE BIGGEST GOSSIPS EVER, honest to fuck if I was going to base one gender trait on my own grouping... cis heterosexual men are massive gossips. and Unca ted (a ver old mate of mine) never shuts up. like, ever.

but he's an extrovert, like me.

I just don't see it reflecting my life, that's all. the diversity between anyone of them and another intersex man, or another femme or another post-modern butch, or another transwoman or another ... it is really... there are more differences intragender than intergender.

If I get asked that "well why do you come here then" my big answer is "I have no idea. cause I know people here?" cause a lot of the stuff I read sometimes makes me go "huh??? since WHEN?"

I tend not to date butches that are all about being butch and me being femme. or whittering on about "the dance"
I like sex with butches. b-f is my sexuality. that's about as far as it goes. b-f really, for me, all it is, is about the sex. I'm going to be totally honest. I like a female person who has a cock (in it's various forms, flesh and silicone) and sometimes it's nice if they have a vagina and a clit, though it doesn't have to be stated that way. that's kinda it.

I also like them to dress in men's/tomboy clothes, be sexually dominant and kinky dirty fukers, but that has nothing to do with gender.

so, like some people are lesbians but don't eat lentils or listen to tracy chapman, I'm b-f sexual but I don't dig the binary gender behaviour assumptions. I guess I'm not Old School American b-f. that's ok. I'm totally fine with that.

if someone finds me a chair, it's for me, and because they adore me and care about me, not because I'm a femme - or it bloody well better be for me and not cause of my gender grouping. I do things for people because I love and care about them. I don't care what gender they are. I got so confused with this when I got back... all the rules I forgot about during dating... I just forgot about how things are done here. I got used to just being Babs who happens to be femme. and we are friends because of our connection. I had close mates who were butch that I slept with in the same bed and cuddled with.
And talked about stuff. I still do. it doesn't *feel* like I'm talking to someone of another gender... I'm talking to another *person* independant from me.

However, if I'm talking to someone who keep gendering me, I really feel it. and I get annoyed. One of my friends always unlocks my bike for me. But she does it with such care that it doesn't feel like "Must Unlock Femme Bike" which coming home, I have to say I can *really* pick up on. And it feels weird to me. But a lot of girls like it here. Cool. If that's how you reach your bonna, Tally Ho! and all that.

But it feels clunky, odd and foreign to me. And I feel lonely when someone does that. I feel like a cardboard cutout of a femme unit. I feel erased as a person. I like being someone's *friend*. ME. then, later, you can, yannknow, look down my top. that's fine lol.

[Gemme]

Does anyone really introduce folks as 'this is my femme friend, Veronica' or 'this is my butch friend, Chris'?

Putting it like that, I totally see what you and Martina are touching on.

But I do have femme friends. And butch friends. And Trans friends. But I don't introduce them as such. Not that I can think of, anyway. I might use it as a descriptor, such as, "You remember me talking about my friend, Kate, right? She's the blonde femme that was in the play last month" but that's about all I can think of as to how I might use that reference.

I do feel that we bond stronger with those who share the same/similar experiences and views. For me, that tends to be mostly with female-bodies folks, no matter their id. Whittling it down from there, I've lived my life as a straight person and a bisexual at different times and now am finally home with Queer, so I feel that I have a lot in common with just about everyone. I look pretty damn hot in a tie and fedora too, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with anything. Or friends. Unless a bunch of us got together and all looked hot together, but then I wouldn't give a rat's ass about anyone's identity. They would all be my fucking hot friends. In ties and fedoras.

I see how my personal identity affects the way my friendships flow. I'm a girl. For some folks, that doesn't affect anything but I feel a separate connection with other girls and, for some of my butch and trans friends, there is a thread of tenderness that I don't always see with others that don't know I'm a girl. So, it's not just about gender and it's not just about identity and it's not just about how each person presents theirselves but how their identity and gender present to mine and vice versa.

Don't get me wrong. If I love you enough, I'll kill for you, no matter how you identify. But the pain inflicted and the time it takes for the other person to die might change according to how you and I connect.

[EnderD_503]

I have friends who I'll go out with some times or especially if I feel like going out to a club, then I have closer friends that I see a bit more often. I don't talk as often as I'd like with people, though. Especially after moving out of community housing. I don't think that has much to do with being butch or a trans guy, though. I know a lot of really social butches and trans guys.

As for phones...I really hate phones so much. I get really anxious when I have to make a phone call and often end up putting it off even if it's really important. When I do I often recite in my mind what it is I'm going to say, or sometimes write it down so I don't forget. Part of it is also I find sometimes I have trouble hearing what the other person is saying, and since they aren't in front of me I can't read their body language or anything else to try to fill in the blanks. Then I end up asking them to repeat themselves a million times and it makes me feel like crap...so yeah...I hate phones lol

[Ginger]

I don't know if gender plays a role in the way I am as a friend.

I can make some observations, but I'm not sure what they mean, if anything.

One is that I have a couple close straight male friends now and have had many others throughout my life, but I've never had a butch friend, and always felt a kind of wall with butch women especially if they were in a couple.

I've noticed that on this website, butches seem more open to friendships with femmes, and that makes the environment feel less rigid to me.

Off line, b-f couples I've known seem to gravitate toward other couples while two of my oldest dearest friends are a straight couple and I love them both a lot.

I do have one close femme friend who has friendships independent of her partner (not that I don't get along with her partner, but the femme and I are the ones with the connection).

My long-term friendships, except for the one femme friend I mentioned, are with straight people that I have things in common with. We met either in grad school or in the literacy or poetry communities in NYC.

Some of these are people I've had countless seders and Thanksgivings with, and when something bad or amazing happens in my life, I tell them right away.

Others are people I've seen at readings for 20 years, and we have a mutual respect and casual appreciation of each other, but we don't share anything personal.

Right now I'm getting close by talking on the phone with one of my ex's close friends. R broke up with me a couple weeks ago, as she lay in the hospital recovering from two strokes and heart failure, and was (is) waiting for a transplant.

Her close friend M was also banned from visiting her, for different reasons that are equally puzzling.

M, the ex, and I have been a huge solace for each other. We've talked and cried on the phone for hours and hours, and I am not generally a phone person. I feel very close to her, and we've shared our grief and sense of loss and bewilderment and anger and deep unrelenting worry about R with each other. I hope it's a friendship that continues beyond this crisis we've found ourselves in together. I've never had a friendship start that way. And it has nothing to do with gender.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I know *so* many phone phobic (really anxious about talking on the phone) people...