Changing last names

[imperfect_cupcake]

Ok great. I agree. lots of things are different or the same but for different reasons.

But here are questions for people to answer:

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?

I know we are all super special and out moms love us and we all have the bestust of all intenstions and no one is a bad person. K? Soooo I'm asking people to hypothsise about community and culture and background and history. big picture. not individuals.

[girl_dee]

What immediately comes to mind is that in the beginning the men made the rules and it was decided that she would drop her name and use his. This would become the family name.

Given that women could not vote, work, drive or have an opinion about much that this was part of the rules and fell into that lump of stuff we were expected to do.

Butch femme is usually a masculine/feminine balance which does mimic hetero couples, and for us, being given the same rights as married folk, like being able to legally change our name in gay marriage is a right we jumped on.

i think we have adopted so many traditions of straight folks because that is what we know, i don't imagine many of us were raised by lesbians, or gay men. i think as time goes on we will right our own set of rules based on our own ideals and whatever the hell we want to do. Also there is not a damn thing wrong with adopting any tradition if that is what you want to do. But there ARE options.

Not taking the male/masculine/butch name in marriage is idea many have never even thought of, it's just expected. At one time women probably thought they would never get the right to vote, or opt for divorce, etc.

Again, i think it's lovely that some cherish this tradition.

[Loren_Q]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?

In North America, the social/cultural norm is for the woman to take the man's name in marriage.

Those mores/norms are embedded to some degree in all of us. I beleive each of us carries the social/cultural norms we were raised with whether or not we like them and whether or not we even know it.

The name taking norm is slowly changing, but the ratio by far is still the woman taking the man's name.

I don't think this is limited to B/F relationships. What I see is the dominant partner's name becomes the family name. When the dominant partner is femme, it can raise eyebrows, but not really.

This leads to the other cultural/societal norm that butch=dominant partner... And that's a whole other thread.

FTR I know many Femme-led relationships, but the question is broader than my personal circle of friends.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?

Because the butch is seen as the masculine partner and since the US, although noted as a bilineal society, uses patrilineal naming, it stands to reason that many b/f marriages would uphold this tradition. There is a powerful pull toward reproducing tradition. And both traditionally and symbolically gender plays a key role in marriage. One of the most important symbolic gesture regarding gender is the deference of the female to the male. That is sometimes duplicated in varying degrees in b/f culture. People involved in making these symbolic choices, such as taking the butches surname, often have a variety of explanations for the same choice. This variety of reasons for the same option is normally seen when personal choices have internal and subconscious meanings. Again considering the power of patriarchal tradition this is no surprise.

Interesting to note that despite the past many Americans support patrilineal naming. Also surprising is a study that supposedly shows 50% of Americans saying they would support a law requiring a woman to take a man’s name when marrying. This is particularly disturbing since breaking free of the doctrine of coverture was such an uphill battle and it was only in the 70’s that women began to win the right to use their own name to get credit instead of only their husbands. But again tradition is deeply rooted and difficult to buck. There is a sense of community and belonging associated with participating in traditional rituals. Butch/femme couples are certainly not immune to this desire. But just because people have a desire to be a part of something it doesn't mean their brains fall out. This is why it is important for these people to find reasons for doing something that breaks away from the symbolic meaning behind the choice. People have a need to ignore cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance easily explains the lack of interest in examining uncomfortable and opposing beliefs. It’s stressful. "I believe that women and men are equal." "I believe that butches are not men." "I believe that butches and femmes do not engage in heteronormative behavior." Etc... Strong personal beliefs such as this coupled with choices in direct conflict with those beliefs create cognitive dissonance. Who wants to deal with that?
I think this is what makes many people cover their ears and go "LALALALALA."

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

This is why it is important for these people to find reasons for doing something that breaks away from the symbolic meaning behind the choice. People have a need to ignore cognitive dissonance.

I wanted to explain this more fully. Because when I reread it, it sounds like I'm advocating that people find reasons to do something that breaks away from the symbolic meaning. That is not the case at all. I am not personally advising that this is important. What I am saying is that people have a need to do that to ensure that there is consonance between what they believe and their actions. That is what is often behind a group of people making the same personal choice but instead of having the expected or typically understood reason for doing so they each have different reasons for making the same choice.

It is also why people often hate being asked to explain and examine their beliefs or the process by which they have reached their opinions. It is why we find people, who are on a discussion board where the purpose, one could not be faulted for believing, is to actually have discussions, angered by being asked to discuss. Questions that ask people to challenge their beliefs are difficult. It is the reason we hear so many people say it’s just my opinion and I’m entitled to it. I don’t have to explain myself. Which effectively cuts off any chance for discussion. This desire to shut down the other person, or shut up oneself, increases dramatically when someone is being asked to look at how they are holding conflicting beliefs, ideas, opinions, etc. It is uncomfortable to do this so people look for a way to achieve harmony between opinions or actions. It requires a good deal of mental and emotional gymnastics at times to achieve consonance, but discomfort increases this type of athletic prowess exponentially.

I'm not talking about anyone in particular or even about this thread specifically, although focusing on honeybarbara's questions brought this stuff up for me. I know it is not an answer to her questions, it's more why there is not likely to be satisfactory answers to her questions. To lots of questions.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

<snip>

Cognitive dissonance easily explains the lack of interest in examining uncomfortable and opposing beliefs. It’s stressful. "I believe that women and men are equal." "I believe that butches are not men." "I believe that butches and femmes do not engage in heteronormative behavior." Etc... Strong personal beliefs such as this coupled with choices in direct conflict with those beliefs create cognitive dissonance. Who wants to deal with that?

I think this is what makes many people cover their ears and go "LALALALALA."

What she said.

[*Anya*]

It doesn't make me uncomfortable to look at my own cognitive dissonance.

What has made me uncomfortable is the underlying feeling of shaming I have felt for those of us, mostly femmes; that chose, will chose or want to chose: our partners name.

I know someone will jump in to say : "there is no shaming going on here".

I know what I feel.

Feminism used to be an almost abstract concept for me. I was on the outside looking in when I was my most vocal and sure in my beliefs.

That means I was not in a relationship. Of any type-men or women but men were pretty much in my rear-view mirror for good.

I was never going to be an instrument of the patriarchy ever again. Hell no! Not me.

Then, after many changes: I became on the inside.

Living inside a relationship as I am today.

My current relationship brings up many issues for me.

We are both in our 6th decade of life.

For those of you that are young, you can read about the second wave of feminism but for those of us that are older and that were politically active in the late 60's and 70's-we lived it. Marching in the streets, protests, demanding the rights of women to abortion (how painful to watch those gains slip away) and marching for women's liberation.

Sometimes I wonder what we had gained and what we have truly lost. (Did we ever have "it" in the first place?)

My love and I try to do the very best that we can to honor our feminism, knowing full-well that we are fully socialized into a patriarchal society.

I think a difference is that we are aware and not pretending to ourselves that it has had no effect on us.

I no longer have the time to fight the same battles that I used to fight. Now, I just want to live my life, have a measure of happiness and grow old with her.

I make no apologies for wanting to change my last name to hers.

Part of feminism to me is acceptance of each woman and her choices.

No shaming or judging.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

It doesn't make me uncomfortable to look at my own cognitive dissonance.

It does make most people uncomfortable to hold two or more conflicting beliefs or opinions. I'm glad you don't have a problem doing it. Most get a feeling of unease and have to shift things around until they feel comfortable. May I ask what particular cognitive dissonance you were looking at in this case that was NOT making you uncomfortable? Or were simply speaking generically, like cognitive dissonance doesn't affect you? Or did you mean there is no cognitive dissonance for you concerning this issue, but if there were any it would not make you uncomfortable?

[Cin]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

My love and I try to do the very best that we can to honor our feminism, knowing full-well that we are fully socialized into a patriarchal society.

I think a difference is that we are aware and not pretending to ourselves that it has had no effect on us.

I no longer have the time to fight the same battles that I used to fight. Now, I just want to live my life, have a measure of happiness and grow old with her.

I make no apologies for wanting to change my last name to hers.

Part of feminism to me is acceptance of each woman and her choices.

No shaming or judging.

I reread your post several times because it's easy to miss something important when you just read a post once or even twice. I think I see the possible dissonance you were referring to. And I see why it would not make you uncomfortable. I totally get that. I too understand that I have been "fully socialized into a patriarchal society" and I also make no apologies for being willing to give my name to Truly if she wants it. And I identify as a feminist. Any dissonance that might cause I am fully capable of shaking off. Is that what you mean?

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I reread your post several times because it's easy to miss something important when you just read a post once or even twice. I think I see the possible dissonance you were referring to. And I see why it would not make you uncomfortable. I totally get that. I too understand that I have been "fully socialized into a patriarchal society" and I also make no apologies for being willing to give my name to Truly if she wants it. And I identify as a feminist. Any dissonance that might cause I am fully capable of shaking off. Is that what you mean?

I started out writing another long, exhaustive explanation of what I meant.

Then, I wondered why.

I said everything I wanted and needed to say in my post.

You know I love your mind and respect you greatly MT, but that said, I think I am going to leave it right where I left it.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I started out writing another long, exhaustive explanation of what I meant.

Then, I wondered why.

I said everything I wanted and needed to say in my post.

You know I love your mind and respect you greatly MT, but that said, I think I am going to leave it right where I left it.

And I hope you know I feel the same about you. I would hate to have said something upsetting. I always try to be respectful in my posts. And I certainly don't disagree with anything you are saying.

No worries that you are done with this. I don’t have to understand everything. And I can take no for an answer. Actually I hear it a lot because I ask a lot of questions. I know I can be exhausting. I'm learning not to .

I have nothing but respect for you.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Ok great. I agree. lots of things are different or the same but for different reasons.

But here are questions for people to answer:

1) without talking about yourself personally, why do you think it is that in butch-femme culture in north america (cause I have no idea about elsewhere) there is a decidedly un-even ratio of feminine giving up their name and butches giving theirs in terms of marriage - why do you think that this ratio is so marked?

2) without talking about yourself personally, what do you think could be various contributing ideas to this trend?

I know we are all super special and out moms love us and we all have the bestust of all intenstions and no one is a bad person. K? Soooo I'm asking people to hypothsise about community and culture and background and history. big picture. not individuals.

This is going to be a bit difficult, as I believe in all subjects, we intrinsically speak from our own experiences.

From a historical perspective - The Butch/Femme dynamic has always been masculine driven even though historically it is the Femme's who ahs worked (since butches could not show themselves as femme's could) and ran the household. From what I can see living in North America and being part of the B/F community for 30 years. It is part of the package and part of our history and really part of what many of us crave.

While we are not heterosexual, we have for hundreds of years lived in hetero-normative relationships. We have gone from experiencing our butches cross dressing and living as men, while we as femme's lived the June Cleaver role (I am speaking historically.) to very fluid equal relationships, where both the Butch and the Femme mow the lawn and cook. For many femme's this is still a way of life, as it is for butches (masculine dominated). I do not think today, so many femme's are giving up their names. There are still old school b/f relationships happening where they follow the structure of a dominantly masculine household. I think much of it is generational as well. We have a new generation of b/f relationships that are not doing this, as we have the older generations not doing so. As some have said here, we as queers, get to make the choice, which so many heterosexual women cannot.

EDITED: I would like to add to this. Gay Marriage is NEW here. For many of us, we have waited decades to be able to have the same legal rights as those of our straight counterparts. It is more than just a state by state law, it is now recognized on a federal level. I believe for so many couples, this has created a "this is my legal right to take her/his name, and i am going to do it." She is going to do it, just like her sister did and her mother and her friends and her aunts. She get's to do this legally. In so many ways, it is like a right of passage. I get that completely.

From a personal perspective. I am going to be Dreamer's wife and while I might flinch at the term for myself. I know when Dreamer says it, he is saying it with the utmost love and happiness. For us to be married and for me to be his wife, is a dream come true. I will not take this away, even though the term is not my favorite. Dreamer will not be my wife.... Dreamer will be my spouse.

Julie