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Old 01-30-2014, 04:46 PM   #1
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One of the things I find interesting about femininity is even if you just look at the straight community, not all women are thrilled to be called feminine. But I can’t say I’ve met a man who had a problem with being called masculine.

And for me it isn’t that only femmes perpetuate the problem, it’s that I only hear them. I don’t care that much what some guy says. When my partner expresses to me how she feels about something it makes an impression on me. Much more so than something a masculine identified friend would say. I could have phrased that better in my post. I certainly don’t think femmes or women are the problem. I think we are all victims of a patriarchal society. Women are harmed much more by misogyny than are men. It would be cruel and counter productive to lay the blame for misogynistic beliefs at the feet of femmes or women in general for that matter.
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Old 01-30-2014, 04:55 PM   #2
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Arrow Still thinking

So is it competition?

Why is it that feminine gets squashed down and not celebrated?

I should of said the online common denominator so far in this thread is Femme's, if we (Femme's) are putting expectations of gender presentation and femininity is being squashed, isn't that a problem we should discuss?

Butches perpetuate it when they adopt very specific *masculine* markers as well. no?

Am I reading wrong? I only have these kinds of confusing conversations online about how butch is or should be, out here in real time butch is, well butch.

Wearing lip gloss doesn't take away from that, here (online) it seems to be different, it's almost like an anomaly in this venue, it's baffling, hence my earlier questions...
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:11 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow View Post
] it's almost like an anomaly in this venue, it's baffling, hence my earlier questions...
Yeah, HB and Bulldog were talking about how it's only online. I do not -- or did not -- find that. I found some of all this in the r/t community -- though much less.

Example of r/t being better -- I attended a few femme posse meetings in the SF Bay area many years ago, and I know they had politics, but I was pretty unaware. What I did see was a new femme come into the group who had never worn makeup, but wanted to learn how. No judgement, lots of help. Lots of fun. A lot of those women had been andro dykes at one point. Many had not, but their world was full of people of every possible gender -- it's SF -- so there was no judgement.

Example of it being worse -- the incredible -- INCREDIBLE -- amount of "ewwing" and gagging and insulting comments I got when I dated a femme and continued to attend events -- it was mind-blowing. I don't care anymore, so I guess that's forgiveness, but I will never forget. Trashy behavior like I had never seen back home. People calling each other out on public streets. Fights over who talked to whose boyfriends/girlfriends. These folks weren't kids either. I don't know. There is some connection in my mind between extreme performance of gender and this drama-soaked environment. I didn't see it as much in leather or among dykes outside that community. Maybe it was chivalry gone bad.
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Old 01-30-2014, 06:39 PM   #4
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"Do you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine
people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to
*qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on
self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself
pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is
natural?"


In repsonse to the original post...

No, I do not feel pressure from butches or femmes to be anything other
than who I am. This could be due to the fact that my personality leaves
no room for criticism from others as to how I "do me". Not to imply that I
am insensitive to the feelings of others, but I am more sensitive to being
true to myself. I wouldn't be open to anyone projecting their ideals of how
I should act or dress onto me.

Come to think of it, I have made judgment of someone's "butchness".
After reflection, it really wasn't about "butchness" at all. But it had more
to do with how they morally or ethically conducted themselves instead of
appearance or mannerisms. Of course, that is a people issue not a
butch/femme one. As someone who relates the OFOS butch school of
thought, I find that label to be more relatable to people closer to my
age (50, very soon). With age and experience I find labels mean less and
less to me. In my interactions with folks, I look for the intent in their hearts.
When I was younger I might look at the outward appearance first....but now
I am more inclined to realize that the exterior has very little to do with whom
I am attracted to or connect with.
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Old 01-30-2014, 08:01 PM   #5
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My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."
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Old 01-30-2014, 08:06 PM   #6
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Wink Clarification

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Originally Posted by BullDog View Post
My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."
I specifically did not quote you so not have this happen, I bounced off your post and I should of clarified (I usually do but I got lazy, that won't happen again)

I'm only trying to make sure that it's clear like you have above how masculinity/femininity are traits behaviours that do not belong to ANY specific gender.

Having one more than the other does not take away from whatever you (general) are.


I wanted to clarify, in case you were confused and thought my post was directed *at you*, it wasn't..
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Old 01-30-2014, 08:10 PM   #7
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Thanks Snow.

HB, I agree that describing or sensing someone else's "energy" is very subjective. It feels like a woo woo term to me, lol, but it is something I very much feel within myself and in other people's presence. It's like people have this buzz about them when they are in the room. Not very scientific or definite, I know.
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Old 01-30-2014, 08:34 PM   #8
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Some people enjoy explaining most of their behaviors in terms gender. I remember a post I made about decorating, how I was currently into decorating with some very feminine touches. It had NOTHING to do with my gender. It was not an expression of me as femme. It was that I really liked those colors and those touches right now. Next year, I might be attracted to all steel and wood. (I don't decorate that often.) Anyway, some people see themselves in terms of layers and layers of complex gender expression. I do not see myself that way. If people entered that house and thought, "femme," it was on them. If they entered and thought "gay man," (I had roommates), that was also on them.

The music I like is favored by men, straight men over forty. It says nothing about my gender. It really doesn't. It says something about my geographical roots, my love of good writing, and my social class. But not a damned thing about my gender.

Gender does go deep for me. But it does not BEGIN to explain everything about me. People who explain so much about themselves in terms of the expression of their inner boy or girl -- it feels made up to me. But I don't know. I have no idea what their experience is. I have an acquaintance who is wiccan, and she hears the voices of gods and goddesses within her. Their voices and preferences shape her decisions. I do not doubt her experience, but it is as alien to me as understanding that my purchase of a bedspread is an expression of my gender. It might be for some folks. For me, it is not.

There are things about me that are feminine. I am a lot less feminine than some folks. But I have inclinations and mannerisms that make me clearly more feminine than not. But I sure do not try to understand most of my behavior in terms of gender. It feels false to me. It feels artificial. It feels like a construct placed on me. I do not experience that as liberating at all.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BullDog View Post
My comment about knitting wasn't broad stroking or comparing struggles. Masculinity is heavily policed in society. A different example- people have far different reactions about little girls being tomboys than they do about little boys showing feminine traits like wanting to play with dolls. That isn't saying little boys struggles are harder than little girls or broad stroking. That's just my observation, and I do think it has to do with how masculinity is valued in society.

I think that masculinity in butch femme circles is also policed. Everyone who ids (butch, trans, FTM, etc) as masculine is under pressure with the "ick" and "less than" factors. Masculinity is also valued over femininity. I think there is an additional factor for female/woman where your masculinity is called into question more or in different ways- where it's basically you are not really butch if you do x, y or z. Obviously not everyone does it. Perhaps some disagree. That's fine. But no I wasn't broad stroking or doing any sort of "us vs them."
I don't know. I raised 3 sons and all of my son's had baby dolls and doll houses. They also had trucks. Bennie loved pink and wore it proudly. Jacob took dance lessons and Isa loved dresses. All three of my son's cry. They each show emotion. Two out of three are straight and one is a Marine. And my Marine still cries openly.

And I agree with many... This is an online thing happening. In the real world, does this really exist? I am sure for many - but not in my world. I love the fact that Dreamer has feminine energy wrapped up inside that Masculine energy. Though, I do believe I am the one privy to seeing it. I feel blessed to see that side of hym. I am not so sure hy would be so open here to share it. Lots of judgment around these parts and honestly... I find the judgment deeper with the Lesbian butches than I do with the butches or trans folk who are more like Dreamer. (hope that made sense). Maybe some folk just aren't secure with themselves so much that they have to pound their chests.

I mean FFS -- Lesbians judge how we fuck! (that was another topic).
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:34 PM   #10
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Julie, it doesn't surprise me that your boys played with dolls. I am sure they had a very supportive environment for that. I don't see it as common though, but if there are lots of boys out playing with dolls that's awesome.

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, jumping off my post or what. Lesbian butches more judgmental?

Online world definitely different than in real time. It's also much easier for us to misunderstand each other than face to face.

I think I need some sleep.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:41 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by BullDog View Post
Julie, it doesn't surprise me that your boys played with dolls. I am sure they had a very supportive environment for that. I don't see it as common though, but if there are lots of boys out playing with dolls that's awesome.

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, jumping off my post or what. Lesbian butches more judgmental?

Online world definitely different than in real time. It's also much easier for us to misunderstand each other than face to face.

I think I need some sleep.
I am jumping off your post. I know more boys that were raised with dolls and trucks, than I know who were not.

I do think Lesbian Butches are more judgmental. It seems all the chaos that I hear around here, is how Lesbian Butches want their own space, because they are Lesbians and they want to feel safe. Kinda makes me a bit crazy really. All this has done is divided us. I remember a Lesbian Butch saying that if a Femme was stone, then she wasn't really a Lesbian. REALLY? And I am not speaking of you Bulldog. We have so many beautiful dynamics here, yet we judge. Constantly judge one another on how we live our lives or how we fuck. Hearing a Femme cannot be a Femme, if she is with a trans guy! Really? I only hear this from the Lesbian Butches... Those who want to be known as Lesbian Butches.

So ya... I am a bit tired of how we treat one another.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:46 PM   #12
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"I mean FFS -- Lesbians judge how we fuck! (that was another topic). "

Have lesbians been sent off into the wilderness again ?

I'm lost again.
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:35 PM   #13
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Post ?

I am sorry I have not read all this thread....has anyone spoke of the pressure femmes put on other femmes-and - butches put on other butches : questioning how femme or butch they are...I have seen/experienced this a few times during my lifetime.



...
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Old 01-30-2014, 09:40 PM   #14
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I am sorry I have not read all this thread....has anyone spoke of the pressure femmes put on other femmes-and - butches put on other butches : questioning how femme or butch they are...I have seen/experienced this a few times during my lifetime.



...
In this thread its more dedicated to the butch/masculine and the ability to have a feminine side. I know that the femme side has been touched upon in the breaking stereo types thread.
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Old 01-31-2014, 08:32 AM   #15
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I’m really confused. This thread is called “in celebration of butch femininity” and the OP asks about “how certain "feminine" traits they possess or express somehow exclude them or distance them from butchness. She asked if you experience gender pressure from other butches or masculine people to amp up your masculinity or tone down your femininity in order to *qualify* as butch? Have you ever found yourself exerting gender pressure on self-identified butches? If you are not butch, have you ever found yourself pressuring butches to behave, dress, etc in more masculine ways than is natural?“

How did this become about lesbians? How do lesbians pressure butches to be more masculine? I’m not saying lesbian should be a sacred cow or anything, but it feels more like they are scapegoats, I just don’t get how a conversation about lesbians fits in this thread. I certainly have never been pressured by lesbians to be more masculine. And this thread isn’t about the different ways that different types of people have pressured people in general. I’m sure I could come up with a list of people who have tried to pressure me into being other than I am but it would have nothing to do with butchness or this thread. Maybe I’m missing something so could somebody explain to me how lesbians pressure butches to be more masculine.

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Originally Posted by Julie View Post
I love the fact that Dreamer has feminine energy wrapped up inside that Masculine energy. Though, I do believe I am the one privy to seeing it. I feel blessed to see that side of hym. I am not so sure hy would be so open here to share it. Lots of judgment around these parts and honestly... I find the judgment deeper with the Lesbian butches than I do with the butches or trans folk who are more like Dreamer. (hope that made sense). Maybe some folk just aren't secure with themselves so much that they have to pound their chests.

I’m trying to figure out what is meant here. Would Dreamer find it difficult to share hys feminine side here because there is lots of judgment from lesbians, lesbian butches and female identified butches to be more masculine? Is that your experience? And judgment comes from female identified butches who are not secure in their masculinity so they have to pound their chests?

I know in my experience it is the more masculine identified people and those who love them that judge femininity in butches harshly. i have felt pressure from partners but nothing like the judgment i feel from male identified people. It just means more to me from partners. And I have never been pressured to be more masculine from lesbians or lesbian butches.
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Old 01-31-2014, 08:45 AM   #16
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My quoting tool is not working Miss Tick, so I am going to do my best to reply.

I probably should not have commented on this tread, as I am not butch or trans. That is the first mistake I made.

I also probably should have rethought the statement about Dreamer, because I am not Dreamer. I should have left it at - I get to see that side of Dreamer. Not that it is feminine the way my feminine side is, because clearly we are different and that is what makes the relationship so beautiful for us. And perhaps feminine/masculine energy means something different to all of us. I do not equate male and masculine the same. Our real time friends, which include trans, MI Butches, Stone Butches and FI Butches, have never judged either of us based on our masculine or feminine energy. That really has come (my personal experience) from the Lesbian community that I have encountered. This is all my experience Miss Tick.

Let's say I have a friend who is trans and he lives his life as a male and he is a submissive bottom, there is an automatic judgment that is placed. And I can tell you, it is not made by other transfolk or MI Butches or most femme's for that matter. It is made by the chest pounding Lesbians that want their own space and don't recognize these people as having a right.

I can certainly see where my writing was confusing, in retrospect after reading, it confused me. So I thank you for asking. Sometimes I get a bit passionate and like all of us am not always concise in how I communicate. I thank you for not jumping down my throat and asking thoughtful questions.

As far as generalizing "All Lesbians," early in my writing. Not fair on my part to do so and I own this. Again, coming from an emotional and not a logical stance. I own it and I will learn from this.

Julie
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Old 01-30-2014, 10:44 PM   #17
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So I have a high school friend who is moving up in the Mary Kay world she has to do 100 faces before and after by the end of March to move up. She asked if I would come to her studio. She knows I have never worn makeup but they have skin treatment programs only. Not only did I go, I also let her put a light coat of makeup on just to have a good before and after. I did not freak, but felt good that I helped a true friend. The makeup was so light that Red did not even notice! After almost 53 yrs my attitude about boxing myself in has totally gone away. I refuse to be assimilated. I have ten right to be totally free!
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:04 AM   #18
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I love for Butch to be all woman and to me that is femininity. That a Butch can be a woman and be proud of herself.

The muscles, button-up shirts and guys clothes and it's that the femininity that attracts me.
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Old 01-30-2014, 05:00 PM   #19
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"When my partner expresses to me how she feels about something it makes an impression on me."

Very true...the closer we are to someone the more the words touch us. Their words can build us up or break us down. Reflecting on my past, I indeed have many stories of comments made to me by femme's that hit me harder than things I observed in social settings because the relationship was closer with that person than the others. It is for that reason I would most likely be apt to use one of those stories as an example, because this topic is so personal.

However, I'm not sure that I personally can say that I have more stories of one than the other. I tend to think I personally have witnessed an equal number of masculine and feminine folks making judgmental comments regarding gender expression.
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