In Celebration of Butch Femininity

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by fatallyblonde

^^^^^^^ THIS.

There is so much shit in this thread I don't even know where to begin. But it sure has got my eyebrows raised very high in disbelief. But I can't be fucked arguing ("loving" all the misogyny directed at us "bitchy oppressive femmes" though! And women id butches - but the poor trans men and genderqueers NEVER judge, poor victims of mean wimminz bitchiness boo hoo hoo - SPARE ME). What Snow says above is the most important, crucial, critical factor for me. TRANS WOMEN BELONG IN OUR COMMUNITY, THEY BELONG IN WOMEN'S SPACES AND IF LESBIAN ID IN LESBIAN SPACE NO MATTER WHAT THEIR JUNK LOOKS LIKE.
This equating of womanhood and lesbianism with vagina HAS TO STOP.

I told myself I wasn't going to participate here at all - the amount of misogyny going on is staggering - but I will always come out to bat for trans women. If my tone is contentious, well. I am really, really angry right now. But I try as much as I can not to internet brawl these days. Thats all I have to say. Any community that excludes trans women is a fucked, broken community.

(and? it is REALLY dehumanising to refer to trans women as "MTFs" for goddsakes. Is it so hard to type out trans women??)

I agree and BFP is very supportive of them being in this space.

Also, some women actually prefer the term MTF to "transwoman". Both terms are accepted in the trans* community.

[fatallyblonde]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I agree and BFP is very supportive of them being in this space.

Also, some women actually prefer the term MTF to "transwoman". Both terms are accepted in the trans* community.

I have yet to meet a single trans woman who has said that. Maybe they are on this forum and can correct me, but I have myself been schooled in appropriate terminology by trans women. I also know that the space inbetween trans and woman is important also and considered more correct than transwoman - terminology evolves, especially when it comes to very marginalised and oppressed groups of people. Language imposed by outsiders (MTFs, transwomen) becomes outdated in favour of that defined by the group itself (trans women). I understand that it's easy to be a little bit behind proper terminology on occasion but I'm not making this up and I think part of being considerate to trans women is complying with new forms once aware of them.

I am intensely surprised some of the intelligent members of this community also seem to be unaware of the fact that the same rhetoric used to argue that trans men are still lesbians (!!!!) is the exact same rhetoric used to exclude trans women from women's and lesbian spaces.

This post isn't complete but I have to dash now... I don't think I want to contribute anymore anyway.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by fatallyblonde

I have yet to meet a single trans woman who has said that. Maybe they are on this forum and can correct me, but I have myself been schooled in appropriate terminology by trans women. I also know that the space inbetween trans and woman is important also and considered more correct than transwoman - terminology evolves, especially when it comes to very marginalised and oppressed groups of people. Language imposed by outsiders (MTFs, transwomen) becomes outdated in favour of that defined by the group itself (trans women). I understand that it's easy to be a little bit behind proper terminology on occasion but I'm not making this up and I think part of being considerate to trans women is complying with new forms once aware of them.

I am intensely surprised some of the intelligent members of this community also seem to be unaware of the fact that the same rhetoric used to argue that trans men are still lesbians (!!!!) is the exact same rhetoric used to exclude trans women from women's and lesbian spaces.

This post isn't complete but I have to dash now... I don't think I want to contribute anymore anyway.

My language is not outdated. I am a gender therapist. It is what I do for a living. I work with trans* people 5 days a week.

Next.

[Nat]

I did create a thread in the red zone specifically for lesbian love/hate within our community for those who are interested in continuing that conversation

[weatherboi]

I agree terminology evolves but sometimes it doesn't matter. People get to choose for themselves.

Originally Posted by fatallyblonde

I have yet to meet a single trans woman who has said that. Maybe they are on this forum and can correct me, but I have myself been schooled in appropriate terminology by trans women. I also know that the space inbetween trans and woman is important also and considered more correct than transwoman - terminology evolves, especially when it comes to very marginalised and oppressed groups of people. Language imposed by outsiders (MTFs, transwomen) becomes outdated in favour of that defined by the group itself (trans women). I understand that it's easy to be a little bit behind proper terminology on occasion but I'm not making this up and I think part of being considerate to trans women is complying with new forms once aware of them.

All my woman friends prefer just being called women. When asked what their preference when being identified as a group they identify as women. Not MTF woman or trans woman just woman. My friends, their preference, and their choice. Qualifiers are clinical and I am not into that. I am the same way. I am a guy and my name is Grant, not trans man Grant or FTM Grant.

I am intensely surprised some of the intelligent members of this community also seem to be unaware of the fact that the same rhetoric used to argue that trans men are still lesbians (!!!!) is the exact same rhetoric used to exclude trans women from women's and lesbian spaces.

I am not sure where anyone here said that men like me are still lesbians. I think someone said if a man like me wants to id as lesbian that it is ok. I understand what you are saying. I just don't see that here.

This post isn't complete but I have to dash now... I don't think I want to contribute anymore anyway.