Obama's Health Care Overhaul: Your Opinions

[Luv]

Ive been turned down for insurance because of pre-exhistiing problems I have had..if I am able to get insurance it will cost me 1/2 of my monthly paycheck.

My generation has been called " Generation Jones " ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Jones ) . As I look at life now days,,Id say yea..we are. Here we are approaching middle age or are middle aged and have no health insurance. I hope they get this thing figured out.

[casey35]

I do understand the need of insurance and for those who are declined from insurance. But the government needs to back out of our personal life. I do not believe that the government should tell me what i can do and what i cant. For me to hear from our leaders it unamerican to not vote for the health care pisses me off. I have served my country and I for one believe it still america and we have choices what we want and what we dont.

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by casey35

I do understand the need of insurance and for those who are declined from insurance. But the government needs to back out of our personal life. I do not believe that the government should tell me what i can do and what i cant. For me to hear from our leaders it unamerican to not vote for the health care pisses me off. I have served my country and I for one believe it still america and we have choices what we want and what we dont.

I totally get your point here, Casey, about not wanting government intrusion into our personal lives....for most things. Thing is, when we have uninsured Americans, we all pay the costs. When I say we ALL pay, we do, especially those of us who are (lucky enough) to have a job and bring home a paycheck these days. Let me explain.

People who don't have health coverage can't usually get in to see private doctors, where a simple office visit usually costs about $125, if you pay out of pocket and you don't have any xrays, tests or procedures done, because those are extra. These people can't the afford the $125 and they usually don't even bother trying to get in to a private doctor because they are denied even an appointment when they call, being told that "Dr. Soandsuch doesn't accept uninsured patients".

When you are sick and/or injured, you must get medical attention, and that's non-negotiable, because you must live. If you can't go to a private doctor, the only alternative is the Emergency Room, because they can't turn you down. At a minimum, they have to stabilize and treat you and, if they are a community-funded facility, then they MUST, by law, take a certain percentage of medically indigent patients. People know this, so this is the route most of them take. Oh, and by the time these folks come in to the ER, they usually have much MUCH more complicated scenarios going on than if they'd just sought treatment for when the problem first started. People who are uninsured though typically put off seeking medical attention until the last cryin' second, because they know they can't afford it and they're scared to death of not just the medical problem, but the expense associated with care.

Care at an Emergency Department is the most expensive care you can get, anywhere, but when you don't have any choice, that's where you go, whether you can "afford" it or not. In the past, there were programs that provided monetary offset or sliding scale reduced costs to people who couldn't afford to pay, or even programs that picked up the entire costs of services to medically indigents. In today's economy, however, those have gradually dwindled down to next to nothing, or nil. Someone has to pay those costs, or the (community funded, especially) hospitals would go under. This is happening more and more, and I beg you to show me one community funded facility now that isn't operating in the red. They can only do this for so long before they disappear and there is no facility whatsoever, for the folks who have no money and no insurance. The entire community loses. Now, in my lifetime, it's been pretty well accepted that some of these community funded facilities have been of the research oriented type and they have had some of the best equipment and facilities of any hospital in any community. In other words, if you were really, really sick, or banged up in an accident, that's where you wanted to go for the most aggressive treatment or care. These places depend on tax dollars for the greater source of their operating budgets. As their expense goes up, so does the demand for our tax dollars to fund them.

Now, that said, I ask you. Wouldn't you rather spend a few less tax dollars to help buy some of these uninsured Americans some level of basic health care?? If they had health insurance, they wouldn't always be clogging up ERs and charging the most expensive level of care to the taxpayers. They would be going to primary care doctors who charge FAR less for office visits than a trip to the ER would ever cost. These folks would have access to routine preventive care so that more complicated medical issues can be, hopefully, averted. I say, let the big insurance industry bear the burden of the costs of most of the care, in the form of negotiated costs, and take the huge burden of the costs of ER visits for non-emergent care off of the shoulders of the taxpayers.

I'm so sick and tired of hearing so many people who DO have health coverage, or are in a position to pay for their care, grumble about why they should have to bear the costs of paying for people who don't have coverage or are not lucky enough to be in the same position of being able to afford and pay for their care. It's the exact same thing as saying "I've got mine, so fuck you.". That doesn't work in a (civilized) society.

We really ARE all interconnected, in society, whether or not we want to admit it or not. Someone's got to pay these huge costs and it's, ultimately, going to fall on the guy whom it's always fallen on.....the taxpayer. The only question that's left to answer is how it's going to be paid. I, as a single filer (I am not legally married), pay approximately 28% of my salary in federal taxes. Of the amount I have left, after that's taken out, I pay about $160 per month for the premium of my health care coverage/insurance. I would rather pay, say, 29 or 30% in federal taxes.....or it may even be a bit less, if we had a single payer system, similar to the VA (#1 Ranking, consistently, in Patient Satisfaction, nationally), to cover EVERY American. Just by sheer volume alone, the cost of medical services and pharmaceuticals would be beaten down....way, waaaaaay down.

~Theo~

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by casey35

I do understand the need of insurance and for those who are declined from insurance. But the government needs to back out of our personal life. I do not believe that the government should tell me what i can do and what i cant. For me to hear from our leaders it unamerican to not vote for the health care pisses me off. I have served my country and I for one believe it still america and we have choices what we want and what we dont.

Personally I would rather the Government than the Insurance Companies. You don't get any choices with them

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by casey35

If you dont have insurance which i dont then it should be your responsablity to get some.

Originally Posted by casey35

I do not believe that the government should tell me what i can do and what i cant.

Okay, let me get this straight. You don't have insurance. You think it's everyone's responsibility to get insurance. You don't think the the government should tell you that you have to get insurance.

While I ponder the hypocrisy, I'll point out a few things. When the Republicans jumped on the "everyone must have insurance" bandwagon years ago, it was all about "personal responsibility" and that those who are responsible and have insurance shouldn't have to pay for the irresponsible folks who don't have insurance. Now that the Democrats are asking for the same thing, it's "the government forcing". Bottom line, if everyone was responsible (republican word) and got insurance, then the government wouldn't have to force you (democrat word) to get it.

Oh, and government tells citizens, institutions, corporations, etc. every damn day in a thousand different ways what we can and can't do. They're called laws, and without them we'd have anarchy rather than society.

[betenoire]

I'm interested to see how this all plays out. I do hope that eventually your government moves toward a more Canadian model of healthcare.

Because then you won't have less power and control over your lives than what you have now - you will have more.

Imagine how nice it would be to go to ANY doctor you wanted to go to, rather than only being able to choose from one of the half-dozen doctors mandated by your shitty insurance policy?

Those of you who think that you'll be taxed out the ass for this health care don't know what you are talking about. You just don't. I am married to an american who still lives in the US. I know what I pay in taxes a month. I also know what he pays for his insurance. Between his insurance and "copays" he pays out MORE than I do a month in taxes. Add to that his taxes and he pays out way WAY more a month than I do. Just to survive and have something that resembles a good quality of living. What kind of bullshit is that?

[Linus]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I'm interested to see how this all plays out. I do hope that eventually your government moves toward a more Canadian model of healthcare.

Because then you won't have less power and control over your lives than what you have now - you will have more.

Imagine how nice it would be to go to ANY doctor you wanted to go to, rather than only being able to choose from one of the half-dozen doctors mandated by your shitty insurance policy?

Those of you who think that you'll be taxed out the ass for this health care don't know what you are talking about. You just don't. I am married to an american who still lives in the US. I know what I pay in taxes a month. I also know what he pays for his insurance. Between his insurance and "copays" he pays out MORE than I do a month in taxes. Add to that his taxes and he pays out way WAY more a month than I do. Just to survive and have something that resembles a good quality of living. What kind of bullshit is that?

As a Canadian living here, I've discovered that as well. The quality of doctor I see (I go to the Callen-Lorde Center in Manhattan) is equal to what I got in Toronto. It boggles my mind why I pay for insurance and then, on top of that, I have to do a co-pay. K and I have discussed it and we'll likely move to the likes of either BC or Halifax when we have kids. I've determined there is no way we could afford all the coughs, scrapped knees, broken bones and the like if we remained in the US.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Linus

As a Canadian living here, I've discovered that as well. The quality of doctor I see (I go to the Callen-Lorde Center in Manhattan) is equal to what I got in Toronto. It boggles my mind why I pay for insurance and then, on top of that, I have to do a co-pay. K and I have discussed it and we'll likely move to the likes of either BC or Halifax when we have kids. I've determined there is no way we could afford all the coughs, scrapped knees, broken bones and the like if we remained in the US.

Exactly. That's another one of the lies that people are told and then pass on. Health Care in the US is -not- better quality care than it is in Canada.

People sometimes ask if I would move to the US rather than have Nick move to Canada. I always look at them as though they are insane. Of COURSE not.

When I moved back to Ontario after a year in BC I forgot to let OHIP know that I was back in the province. So after 3 months of not living in BC I lost my BC coverage, and I didn't have coverage from Ontario yet because I didn't remember to go ask for it. Anyway. Long story short I had to go see my family doctor once and pay for it out of pocket. It cost me $27 dollars. I'm pretty sure that Nick's COPAY is higher in the US than my uninsured doctor visit in Canada cost.

Damn, healthcare in the US must be really not be cost-efficient at all. I guess that's what you get when healthcare is overseen by people out to make lots and lots of money.

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Exactly. That's another one of the lies that people are told and then pass on. Health Care in the US is -not- better quality care than it is in Canada.

People sometimes ask if I would move to the US rather than have Nick move to Canada. I always look at them as though they are insane. Of COURSE not.

When I moved back to Ontario after a year in BC I forgot to let OHIP know that I was back in the province. So after 3 months of not living in BC I lost my BC coverage, and I didn't have coverage from Ontario yet because I didn't remember to go ask for it. Anyway. Long story short I had to go see my family doctor once and pay for it out of pocket. It cost me $27 dollars. I'm pretty sure that Nick's COPAY is higher in the US than my uninsured doctor visit in Canada cost.

Damn, healthcare in the US must be really not be cost-efficient at all. I guess that's what you get when healthcare is overseen by people out to make lots and lots of money.

Interesting that you should bring up the "profit factor" in the American health care system. It wasn't always like this. Here's the originations of the idea that American health care should be a means for big business to make enormous amounts of money for not caring for Americans.



I find it uniquely interesting that Kaiser Permanente has this huge ol' website "explaining" how Obama's health care legislation can "work". And if this recent legislation is so damned "good", why are the likes of Kasier (which runs the largest of the FOR profit health care systems ) in favor of it??

See why I don't trust any of them?? That ol' "if it looks too good to be true...." keeps rumbling around in the back of my brain.

~Theo~

[casey35]

Originally Posted by MsDemeanor

Okay, let me get this straight. You don't have insurance. You think it's everyone's responsibility to get insurance. You don't think the the government should tell you that you have to get insurance.

While I ponder the hypocrisy, I'll point out a few things. When the Republicans jumped on the "everyone must have insurance" bandwagon years ago, it was all about "personal responsibility" and that those who are responsible and have insurance shouldn't have to pay for the irresponsible folks who don't have insurance. Now that the Democrats are asking for the same thing, it's "the government forcing". Bottom line, if everyone was responsible (republican word) and got insurance, then the government wouldn't have to force you (democrat word) to get it.

Oh, and government tells citizens, institutions, corporations, etc. every damn day in a thousand different ways what we can and can't do. They're called laws, and without them we'd have anarchy rather than society.

I pay for my own medical bills out of my pocket. The fact that i have a full time job dont mean i have insurance. I have always paid my medical bills out of pocket. I guess i am damn lucky i am not sickly.

[Diavolo]

Personally I don't think Obama's health plan went far enough. I think left to his own devices, it would have. I think he is a very smart man with a very keen understanding of what we face here in America. But he had to negotiate and it's not what it could have been. I also learned something from the husband of a friend of mine. He work in the Senate. The news was making a big deal out of how many pages the bill was. According to Matt, it's mostly triple spaced and it doesn't take that long for anyone to read the bill.

I lived in German in the late 70's. I hurt my foot to the point that I couldn't walk on it. I had to go to a German Doctor. The school referred me to a guy. I went, I saw him three times, he fixed my foot and there was never a bill for his services. About 5 years ago a friend of mine was at a wedding in Italy. She slipped off of a curb and shattered her ankle. The Italian Doctor patched her up, casted her foot, gave her crutches and sent her no bill.

I don't want the Government to be everything to everyone, but it needs to be something to the people. Personally, I want the same health plan that is provided to Congress. Period.

Currently I have Kaiser. My deductable is $2700 and I have a 30% co-pay. I pay $300 a month for that privilege. I currently hold 27 powerlifting records and I rode my bike on three 100 mile rides last year and did all the training necessary to accomplish that. I cannot get Blue Cross. I told them to send their CEO into the parking lot and I would kick his ass just to prove my healthiness. But because I'm 200 pounds of 51yo muscle with a ticker that's gone haywire twice in the last 15 years, they won't insure me. I don't have any high risk behavior. I'm just solid like a rock. It's bullshit. I want that same plan that Chuck Grassley has. I'm in much better shape than that asshat.

[key]

Originally Posted by casey35

I pay for my own medical bills out of my pocket. The fact that i have a full time job dont mean i have insurance. I have always paid my medical bills out of pocket. I guess i am damn lucky i am not sickly.

Yeah, Casey, you are lucky you are not sickly, What do you suppose should happen to those who are not so lucky? Should we just let people die on the streets if they can't afford to pay out of pocket or get insurance?

This is a serious question, Casey, what do you suppose we do with the 23 year old "healthy person" who has a serious auto accident. Let's say it was no one's fault - just hit some black ice, wiped out and broke their neck. Should we just kick them out of the ER as soon as we learn they do not have the money to cover the costs?

Let's change that scenario to a middle aged woman between jobs who discovers a lump in her breast? How much do you think Cancer treatment costs? Should we toss her out if she can't afford it?

I am asking sincerely Casey, in your world, what is your plan for these people?

[casey35]

Well let see, we have people who dont work they dont want to work so us tax payer pay their bills. We have those who dont want to take their kids to the doctor they would just perfer to take them to the e r. We have those who are druggies that we pay for. You know what i am one who is tired of paying for those who cant get off their ass and work. I paid for my own son being born. When i went to set up payments they treated me like shit because i did not have medicaid. What the hell is that. I dont take no hand out from anyone. I think the health care is bad but i dont think the government running it is any better. I know my opinion is not your taste but guess what i dont take anything from anyone i pay my own way in this life.

[key]

respectfully, I would really appreciate it if you answered my question.

I repeat: What is you plan for the above two scenarios?

No need to get all angry, I am asking a sincere question as respectfully as I can. Would you grant me the same courtesy and answer it?

Thanks.

key

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by casey35

Well let see, we have people who dont work they dont want to work so us tax payer pay their bills. We have those who dont want to take their kids to the doctor they would just perfer to take them to the e r. We have those who are druggies that we pay for. You know what i am one who is tired of paying for those who cant get off their ass and work.

I think I understand where Casey is coming from. Our country was founded on self reliance and it served us well for a long time.

Unfortunately our society has become much more complex over time and general taxes, spread amongst all, have been paying for things we deemed are beneficial to most i.e. property taxes pay for school systems, so even those of us without kids have been footing the bill for those that do for a long time.

We tend to forget that we, as individuals, benefit in many ways from generalized taxes.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by casey35

Well let see, we have people who dont work they dont want to work so us tax payer pay their bills. We have those who dont want to take their kids to the doctor they would just perfer to take them to the e r. We have those who are druggies that we pay for. You know what i am one who is tired of paying for those who cant get off their ass and work. I paid for my own son being born. When i went to set up payments they treated me like shit because i did not have medicaid. What the hell is that. I dont take no hand out from anyone. I think the health care is bad but i dont think the government running it is any better. I know my opinion is not your taste but guess what i dont take anything from anyone i pay my own way in this life.

Casey:

As to your second point. I'll tell you as a parent. When I didn't take my son to the doctor, it was because I didn't have health insurance!

As far as your paying your own way in life:
Please answer the following:

1) How much money did you pay and to whom did you pay it, for the road you drive to and from work on?
2) If you have ever had to call the fire department, how much did you pay and to whom did you pay it?
3) If you have ever called the police, how much did you pay and to whom did you pay it?
4) If you use the public library, how much do you pay and to whom do do you pay it?
5) Who do you pay to insure that your employer maintains a safe work environment?
6) How much do you pay and to whom do you pay it to have someone test the medicines you take for safety?
7) How much do you pay and to whom do you pay it to have someone test your food to make sure it is safe.
8) How much do you pay and to whom do you pay it, to ensure that the person in the semi next to you, doing 60 mph is licensed?
9) How much do you pay and to whom do you pay for the air traffic controller who makes sure that the plane you are on doesn't fly into another plane?
10) How much do you pay and to whom do you pay it to make sure that criminals are locked up behind bars where they belong?
11) How much do you pay and to whom do you pay it to have your mail delivered to you daily?

Your statement that you don't take anything from anyone simply isn't true--UNLESS--you live off the grid. But you are here, on the Internet, so that tells me you are not off the grid. You are using satellites that you don't lease time on. You are using microwave transmission towers that you don't lease time on. You make use of hundreds of little services that you pay your taxes for but that you do not pay for directly. Some portion of your taxes goes to pay the NIH and CDC workers who maintain public health but you have never written a check to the NIH or the CDC. Some portion of your taxes go to pay the police but you have never paid an individual cop for showing up. Some portion of your taxes goes to pay for the roads but, toll bridges not-with-standing, chances are you don't pay to drive on the surface streets in town.

As one Supreme Court justice said at the beginning of the last century "taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society". There is an entire infrastructure, supporting your "I'm a self-made-woman" illusions that you utterly take for granted. If you had to pay for all those invisible services that make the wheels of modern life turn, it would be prohibitively expensive.

Now, again, if you live off-the-grid none of that applies to you but you're using a computer, which means you're on the grid, and I know, for a fact, that you aren't paying to rent satellite, microwave and fibre time. Yet, your electrons flow over the same pathways that my electrons flow over because we pay into it *together*.

[Jess]

I have a question regarding the buy a policy or pay a penalty thing. I'm serious, because I haven't seen or read it anywhere.

If you can't afford the insurance and instead opt for paying a penalty.. what do you do for healthcare? Continue on as folks have done going to an ER for a cough due to cold? Wait for an astronomical bill to come that you can't pay and let it get taken from your state taxes? I guess my question is.. do you pay a penalty and THEN pay the same bill you couldn't afford without this plan?

If socialism means an across the board policy ( like Canada) wherein healthcare is paid for via taxes, then I am all about some socialism. Bring it!

Healthcare means so much more than any of our politicians think or espouse. It’s being able to see your doctor when you are sick as often as is necessary and not having to pay because it’s already paid for.
It’s talking to your doctor and explaining things to them and having a meaningful conversation about your medical problem.
It’s getting all the health care you need anywhere you go for as long as you live without ever worrying about cost.
It’s not being told you will lose your job if you are sick and don’t come in.
It’s never getting a bill from anyone for your health care.

[casey35]

For those who does not have insurance i think there should be insurance based on your income and with a rider that allows your preexisting conditions. Hospital do not turn people away that are injured even if they dont have health care. In my opinion the government needs to set down with insurance company and put a restrictions on them. Make them keep prices down for the people to afford them. For those who have posted dont assume you know people or what they have gone thru . If they are not in line for the health bill. This is america last I looked and I believe we all are allowed our opinions.

[key]

Originally Posted by Jess

I have a question regarding the buy a policy or pay a penalty thing. I'm serious, because I haven't seen or read it anywhere.


Healthcare means so much more than any of our politicians think or espouse. It’s being able to see your doctor when you are sick as often as is necessary and not having to pay because it’s already paid for.
It’s talking to your doctor and explaining things to them and having a meaningful conversation about your medical problem.
It’s getting all the health care you need anywhere you go for as long as you live without ever worrying about cost.
It’s not being told you will lose your job if you are sick and don’t come in.
It’s never getting a bill from anyone for your health care.

We are the only developed country on the planet who will send a GDamn bill to someone from outside the country who needs doctor care while visiting us. How inhospitable can we be? No one better claim that we are a "Christian Country" who demands that we treat our guests (heck our own fellow citizens) with such contempt.

As for your first question, my guess is yes, those who choose the fine will carry on as is (I believe) and if they end up in the ER? ??? The fine does not get collected until you fill your tax return, so maybe if you don't file, you can avoid it....til...

It's an F-ed way to go, but it's is a small step in the right direction, and given our political climate, it is no small feat that Obama accomplished even this much.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Jess

I have a question regarding the buy a policy or pay a penalty thing. I'm serious, because I haven't seen or read it anywhere.

If you can't afford the insurance and instead opt for paying a penalty.. what do you do for healthcare? Continue on as folks have done going to an ER for a cough due to cold? Wait for an astronomical bill to come that you can't pay and let it get taken from your state taxes?

Jess,

I suspect you havent seen the particulars because they have yet to be worked out. As with most big legislation....the idea is in the bill, the particulars are a whole different ball game.

Here in Mass with our mandatory health insurance, you are penalized, this year, at approx $1,100 if you are not in one the exclusion categories. If you are without insurance and seek medical care, you are billed for the cost of the care provided.

Each year the penalty increases.

Here, I have found, the subsidized insurance is a heck of a lot cheaper than private insurance even tho the coverage is a little less and there are co-pays for everything including hospitalization.

If memory serves, Canadian health care is not totally free i.e there are some minimal copays.

I would love to see a socialized system of health care in this country. Aside from getting care when it is needed, there would be greater flexibility in employment. How many of us have turned down jobs we want because the health care benefits were subpar?

But the socialized plans are not without pitfalls that are incongruent to the American lifestyle. In socialized medicine, you get good and timely primary care but there are waiting lists for specialists and surgery. Americans wait???
And there are some exclusions i.e. if over a certain age, they will not do certain types of care like dialysis. These vary from country to country.

Maybe this will be a stepping stone to something new and different and more cost efficient.