Pityphuck and Michfest 2014

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

I was wondering how long it would take to piss on the cherrios.

I only have one word in response to the above post.

INTENTION

[BBinNYC]

I am so amazed that while almost every important organization in the LGBT movement (including the National Center for Lesbian Rights) has publicly declared its opposition to the ridiculous "womyn born womyn" intention of MichFest that people on THIS SITE (which has its own intention of being a safe space for trans women) would defend a blatantly discriminatory practice.

I don't dispute the good things you all say about MichFest, all the healing and celebrating and safety, etc. I just wish all the women in our community (and yes, trans women are women) could feel welcomed there.

I am proud to be an ally for my trans brothers and sisters and I won't sit idly by when trans women are shunted aside and made to feel less than.

The politics of the era in which MichFest was founded have evolved. It's time for the festival to do so as well. If not, then it is going to wither on the vine just like the values of exclusion it espouses.

Intention? Policy? It's a distinction without a difference. Make the festival a safe place for ALL women. And make this site a safe space for both cisgender and trans butches and femmes.

If not, who ya gonna exclude next?????

[CherylNYC]

@BBinNYC and nycfem- As Nedra eloquently explained in her blog post, not every place is appropriate for everybody. Besides her extraordinarily lucid points about our lived experience as girls and women being an important qualifier for WBW space, there's another important physical reason why I have very few issues with MWMF's trans policy. Even though I only attended MWMF once, I can say from what I've recently read that some things haven't changed.

MWMF shares a similarity with women's BDSM play parties in that women feel safe walking around without their clothes. As a matter of fact, that's one of the defining features of both of those events. This is relevant because many trans people don't have surgery, and most trans inclusion policies are no longer based on anatomy. In other words, we no longer rely on whether or not a person can leave their 'dick in the drawer'. It would be foolish not to acknowledge that there are good reasons for that policy change. Some trans people aren't good surgery candidates, or their health insurance policy won't cover the expensive surgeries. It makes sense, BUT it means that if MWMF were to change their policy to include all trans women, a person who has had no surgery and may not have taken any hormones could demand entrance to MWMF, and then would be free to walk around without their clothes. As you might have guessed, I don't feel safe and happy in women's space if I'm seeing bio-dick. Period. In fact, if I have to see dick, it's not women's space anymore.

Make a policy that 'if a person has a bio penis, please keep it covered', you say? I have been vilified internationally as a transphobe and a generally horrible person for proposing just such a thing for our women's BDSM play parties. A trans woman friend who supported this party rule because she never wanted to see another dick as long as she lived was called a transphobe by people who had never been trans. Irony free. You can't make this s**t up.

'A trans woman would never show the most male part of herself!' I used to hear that reassurance, and I actually believed it until I had multiple experiences with people with very male bodies, unmodified by hormones or surgery, who had no problem exposing their penises at women's BDSM play events that welcome trans women who live their lives 24/7 as women. This occurred at events in both California and in NY. One clearly very male person I'll call N demanded and gained admittance to our NYC women's BDSM group. He asserted that he was a woman because he felt like one, and that taking hormones or having surgery would be participating in medical fascism, or something. Physically he was a very large and tall male, and he did absolutely nothing at all to change any single thing about himself. For instance, he wore the same clothes and shoes, and he went to the same barber and got the same traditionally male haircut as he always did. Obviously, gender is not based on clothes and hairstyle, but this guy was treated like a man in every aspect of his life because he gave no cue whatsoever to anyone that he might be anything other than male. Deliberately. And then he demanded and received access to women's space. My trans friends were NOT happy to see him. My close sister-friend, A, was horrified. She took her transition from male to female very seriously. She sacrificed a great deal to become a woman. She tried to speak to N about her concerns, but he was, uuh, intransigent.

A worried that N would reflect so poorly that her own acceptance as a woman in our community could become endangered. I hoped we would be able to reassure her that we had an individual problem with N, as she did, but horizontal hostility reigned and it got very ugly. Other women had a problem with N, but they were afraid of being called transphobes and none of them spoke up the way A and I did. Trans activists, some of whom had never been trans, had no problem calling A, a trans woman who had been so active in the fight for trans rights that she was gifted by the Governor with one of the pens used to sign a bill securing trans rights, a transphobic bigot. I was also called a misogynist because trans women are women, so my obvious hatred of other women made me a misogynist. One woman told me that her girlfriend's penis was a female sex organ because her girlfriend, (a trans woman who hadn't had surgery and didn't take hormones), was a female, so her penis was therefore female. Once again, you can't make this s**t up.

Finally, some of those people who were so active in advocating for a male bodied person to be allowed to attend our women's events with no restrictions on their intact penis, told me straight up that they were dedicated to obliterating women's space. Because it's exclusionary and discriminatory. Against men. No, I'm not making this up.

It's easy to propose policies in the abstract, but the reality on the ground can get messy. I described N to friends who, it turns out, thought I was overreacting. Until they met N in person. Then the reality of a large, male MAN at the women's party stared them in the face, and they didn't like it one bit. One of the sweetest moments came when my closest sister-friend, who considers herself a huge trans supporter, was visiting from Canada with her trans-boi partner. Both of them asked me, "Why did you let that man into the party? Did you have to let him in because he's the owner of the space?"

The answer is that we were forced to let that man into women's space because he claimed to be a woman, and inclusive trans policies leave women's space open to abuse by entitled men.

[Femmadian]

Thanks so much, HGL, for taking the time out to give such helpful tips to this Festie Virgin. I appreciate it soooo much. You've given me a lot to mull over. I actually had already signed up for the Michfest forum before I wrote that post but the admins were taking their sweet time in activating my account so I wasn't sure how long it would take (maybe they're still a little hungover/recovering from Fest?). I just checked now and yay, we have lift-off!

The car wash is an interesting proposition (if you all weren't so far, far away...), though if it's going to be clothing optional like Fest, I'd need to get on that soon as it's already starting to get a bit nippy around here.

nanners, I may hit you up later to hear about your infamous tips. You sound like a woman whose brain I'd like to pick!
...

As far as the intention of the Fest goes... I'm of a similar mind to CherylNYC and the other post by Nedra Johnson which Soon shared where she discusses DSCAB and SSCAB as more descriptive terms than AFAB and AMAB (DSCAB standing in for Dominating Sex Class Assigned at Birth and SSCAB for Subjugated Sex Class Assigned at Birth). I think it's a very delicate matter and not so analogous to, say, race, class, religion, etc (the reasons for which are explained quite beautifully, kindly, and clearly at the above post).

I have to say that the whole "penis is a female sex organ" and "you're a bigot if you don't sleep with a male bodied person, especially if you ID as queer or bisexual" thing is pretty de rigeur in the under 40 social justice activist/queer/LGBT crowd where I live... and it just... makes my eyes cross.

I emphatically agree that those who have female bodies and were raised as female need separate space to heal and just let down their armour, even if it is for only a week a year in the middle of the woods in one part of the globe. I don't think that denying the differences in our bodies, our upbringings, our socializations, is doing anyone any favours and is, in fact, pretty misogynistic.

That being said, I think that if a serious discussion of the Michfest intention specifically were to develop, I dunno, it may be better suited as a separate Red Zone "hot topic" if someone wants to start one as I know there are a lot of feelings and thoughts and this could get off topic pretty quick...

[/$0.03]

[BBinNYC]

People use many biological and other rationales to defend bias and discrimination. Would an intersex person whose genitalia makes their gender unclear be a threat to you at MichFest? When do you stop drawing the line at who is really a woman?

All I can say is that the arc of history is long and it bends toward justice, so this relic of the past that refuses to change will go the way of the whites only drinking fountains and back of the bus seating.

The experience of people assigned female at birth who grow up as female is far from monolithic and cannot be the unifying factor for defending an intention that sees that experience as a "gender identity."

I would not want to be at an event that wouldn't welcome Laverne Cox or Janet Mock or any trans woman because she was not deemed female enough.

I am frankly baffled that self-identified butches whose sense of self is all about transgressing gender lines would feel this way. I feel embarrassed on behalf of all the trans folks who come to this site expecting a safe place.

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

I do not believe there has been enough said about the prodigious task of organizing such a huge event like MWMF. The numerous volunteers who arrive each year, some a month before to erect the stages, clear brush without harming the integrity of root systems of trees and bushes, placing signs, working on itinerary of the workshops, and a multitude of other tasks that makes this event so user friendly and welcoming.

Did you know that michfest purchases so much vegetables that some local farmers receive the bulk of their revenue just from this festival alone! Put that in your pipe and smoke it sisters. Things run so smoothly there on the land *all volunteers mind you. We have mechanics, a full staff of medical folks, counselors, to name a few. Most everyone is friendly and quick with a hello, not too many Mcgruffies. Most women who visit the land have made this week their focal point of their entire year. They scrimp and save, they take their work holiday this week. THIS fest means the world to so many women, here they feel safe, they feel free, they can walk around naked at 4 in the morning with the knowledge THEY CAN!

Before I fail to mention this, after fest, the volunteers leave the land as if the fest never happened. The woods get their space back, we are grateful they shared with us this piece of the universe albeit briefly.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Why so hostile? Why do your sisters have to stuff anything in to pipes and smoke it? Why can't there be a discussion about ALL of Michfest?

The good, the bad, the ugly?

Anyone remember the year Susan Powter [sp?] said that all fat lesbians, dykes, and fat positive queers, SHOULD put their ice cream down and exercise?

The last year Bitch & Animal performed together AND Animal was all hot on Susan we weren't happy with her triggery, fat phobic, women hate, book selling bullshit....
I love The Land, but like any other event it has its controversies and problems. I feel it's ok to address these issues without hostility and ugliness.

Originally Posted by Happy_Go_Lucky

I do not believe there has been enough said about the prodigious task of organizing such a huge event like MWMF. The numerous volunteers who arrive each year, some a month before to erect the stages, clear brush without harming the integrity of root systems of trees and bushes, placing signs, working on itinerary of the workshops, and a multitude of other tasks that makes this event so user friendly and welcoming.

Did you know that michfest purchases so much vegetables that some local farmers receive the bulk of their revenue just from this festival alone! Put that in your pipe and smoke it sisters. Things run so smoothly there on the land *all volunteers mind you. We have mechanics, a full staff of medical folks, counselors, to name a few. Most everyone is friendly and quick with a hello, not too many Mcgruffies. Most women who visit the land have made this week their focal point of their entire year. They scrimp and save, they take their work holiday this week. THIS fest means the world to so many women, here they feel safe, they feel free, they can walk around naked at 4 in the morning with the knowledge THEY CAN!

Before I fail to mention this, after fest, the volunteers leave the land as if the fest never happened. The woods get their space back, we are grateful they shared with us this piece of the universe albeit briefly.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Happy_Go_Lucky

I was wondering how long it would take to piss on the cherrios.

I only have one word in response to the above post.

INTENTION

I don't see intention in her post, I share her sentiments, I love The Land, I have been there more times than I can count using my fingers and toes combined. I miss the Land, but I too feel a deep sense of unease when women aren't being allowed. I had a friend who was not a WBW who *sneaks* in every year, she went this year, you probably ran into her and she doesn't share that secret. I don't see it as her doing anything wrong, and it makes me mad she has to *sneak* in. She's a wonderful woman, her moral core is feminist, her work is in social justice. If anyone found out, that had the thinking that you seem to be putting off, she'd be asked to leave.


So as much as I love Womyn's Land I have a deep sense of sorrow that some women can't experience what I have many times over. I think ALL women should go to MWF, because there is nothing more beautiful than women, free to be women under the stars, it's truly magical.


The truth is hard to swallow, Michfest was not friendly to the WOC space when we all fought so hard for it, so as magical as it is, it has it dark sides and though it may make you (general) uncomfortable, it's out there and many of us have been through those dark times and I feel it's ok to talk about them.

[Happy_Go_Lucky]

One of the most amazing positive differences I saw at Fest this year as opposed to my recent last (2 years ago) was all the coupled women with children! This blew my mind, really did. So many states giving a nod to same sex marriages has no doubt been instrumental in this wonderfulness. Not just one child, but many, many children. Spoke with a couple of who had their 2 year old daughter handing out little goodies to many of us walking down the main path, bags filled with soap, toothbrushes, other sundries we all needed. They shared with us that at any time one of them may need to quickly make way to pick up their newborn who they believed would be happening any moment. Made me smile so big. Timing is everything ya'll.

At opening ceremony, we sat behind a couple who had one little girl. She was not walking yet, so she was under 2 years, was my guess. In between her binky loving and napping, we cut eyes. Yes we did! Okay, I have to reveal this. She reminded me of the singer Bjork. I believe Bjork looked just like this girl! Anyway, after a little while, I garnered the courage to ask her parents if I could hold her. They said "Sure!" "If she'll have you." I was a little disappointed assuming she would just leap in my arms and we could dance to BITCH.

A little while later, one of the parents approached me and said "I believe she wants you to hold her now." I silently jumped with glee! yay! They handed her off and lo and behold! we were best pals. We smiled, we laughed, we held binky together, the best of times.

Did not see the little one again until closing ceremony. I loathe to admit I was having issues with breathing all the dust, so I went to get some tea to clear up my sinus'. Who came by you ask? YES! the little Bjork! Her parents brought her for the same symptoms as me. She saw me and coooooed! Or was that me who cooooed, no matter we remembered each other and we hugged and laughed and both of us spit up a little something. We bonded.

Anyway, my post being my joy at all the children who have loving parents on the land. Much to my own dismay, kids are okay.....sometimes.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Happy_Go_Lucky

I was wondering how long it would take to piss on the cherrios.

I only have one word in response to the above post.

INTENTION

Am surprised there was actually a day or so of wbw bonding before the sexism and misogyny kicked in.

Once again, the message we are expected to swallow is women do NOT have the right to define their own needs, to define their space, or to define anything with someone else's approval.

And, just as important, those who seek to demand their approval and acceptance of what women can and should do are again blindsided by their own needs at the expense of anyone elses needs.

Nazi-ism is all about inflicting the will of some on the lives of others. So is patriarchy, so is fascism, so is totalitarianism, so is heterosexuality.

And once again those people who are champions of diversity are demonstrating that others expressing and living their diversity is not well tolerated.

Either you believe in diversity or you dont. Either you live your diversity and allow others to live theirs, or you dont. Either you believe in live and let live, or you dont. Either you walk the talk or you dont.

Thus, if you really and truly believe in diversity you allow people to talk about how wonderful this experience was for them and why, and to recount their memories as they process the depth of the impact this has and will have on their lives.

And, the rest of us, should be comfortable bearing witness to and validating such an opportunity for bonding and growth.

If you want people to accept, respect, and celebrate your diversity, you need to accept, respect and celebrate theirs.

Otherwise, it is just hypocrisy with a queer twist.

[nycfem]

One of the things I like about Michfest is how diverse it is and how different groups of women are given their space to bond: e.g. the lesbian separatists, the bdsm folks (and, yeah, the twilight zone is amazing), lesbians with disabilities, etc. The thing is that each of these groups even though they may have conflicts (e.g. bdsm and separatists have gotten into it at times), discussions and educating one another is encouraged. And yet... women who were born with genitalia that didn't watch their gender identity are not given a space. Prior to the crackdown trans women did have workshops (I went!) to talk about what it was like to be a trans lesbian for those who were interested and had questions and even concerns. However, after it was made clear (also witnessed by me) that that was no longer allowed and anyone who was out about being a trans lesbian would be physically escorted out by security, usually in tears (which I also witnessed), I felt like an important part of the diversity among lesbians and among women was missing. Michfest has amazing music, discussions, food, the whole vibe, and the experience of being both separate and together. Discriminating against trans lesbians to the point of making them set up tents outside the entrance and not be allowed in to buy crafts and see friends and do all the fun things at Michigan just sickened me. It is also interesting to note that in my experience wbw who were in the process of transitioning to men were MORE welcome than fully transitioned lesbian identified trans women. The policy of Michfest is not unique to Michfest. For instance, Olivia cruises also has a policy that they do not welcome trans lesbians. It must be hard to be a trans lesbian woman who may be extra tall or have a low voice and feel like one has to hide their past in order to be welcomed.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by nycfem

One of the things I like about Michfest is how diverse it is and how different groups of women are given their space to bond: e.g. the lesbian separatists, the bdsm folks (and, yeah, the twilight zone is amazing), lesbians with disabilities, etc. The thing is that each of these groups even though they may have conflicts (e.g. bdsm and separatists have gotten into it at times), discussions and educating one another is encouraged. And yet... women who were born with genitalia that didn't watch their gender identity are not given a space. Prior to the crackdown trans women did have workshops (I went!) to talk about what it was like to be a trans lesbian for those who were interested and had questions and even concerns. However, after it was made clear (also witnessed by me) that that was no longer allowed and anyone who was out about being a trans lesbian would be physically escorted out by security, usually in tears (which I also witnessed), I felt like an important part of the diversity among lesbians and among women was missing. Michfest has amazing music, discussions, food, the whole vibe, and the experience of being both separate and together. Discriminating against trans lesbians to the point of making them set up tents outside the entrance and not be allowed in to buy crafts and see friends and do all the fun things at Michigan just sickened me. It is also interesting to note that in my experience wbw who were in the process of transitioning to men were MORE welcome than fully transitioned lesbian identified trans women. The policy of Michfest is not unique to Michfest. For instance, Olivia cruises also has a policy that they do not welcome trans lesbians. It must be hard to be a trans lesbian woman who may be extra tall or have a low voice and feel like one has to hide their past in order to be welcomed.

Ever wonder why we use terms like wbw vs transwoman, cisman vs transman, <fillinyourpreference> lesbian vs trans lesbian?

I dunno for sure but it sure looks like we are making distinctions for a reason.

As for policies of MWMF and Olivia - I cant find anything anywhere that addresses such a thing. I see MWMF as stating its intent is for wbw and it is hoped this would be respected.

Olivia had to deal with backlash when lesbians complained about the furry faces and furry chests on their lesbian cruises a few years back.

As to the reason why transmen and biological females who consider themselves transgendered experience less difficulties in womens space? The radfems have an answer for that.....no woman left behind. Woman being defined as one who has female dna.

[nycfem]

Note that it is not noted that Olivia would protect trans lesbian women from being harassed in the way described below.

From:
"Olivia GuestServices" <GUESTSERVICES@OLIVIA.COM>
Add sender to Contacts

Hello -

Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM.

I know this is discouraging, but it is important for you to understand because it disrupts the Olivia experience we work hard to provide for our guests. If you have any questions or need anything more please feel free to e-mail me at guestservices@olivia.com or call 800-631-6277, option 2.



Thank you,



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jeri Umble
sr. director, customer care


olivia
434 brannan street
san francisco ca 94107

415.962.5700 tel
415.962-5713 fax

feel free
www.olivia.com

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by nycfem

Note that it is not noted that Olivia would protect trans lesbian women from being harassed in the way described below.

From:
"Olivia GuestServices" <GUESTSERVICES@OLIVIA.COM>
Add sender to Contacts

Hello -

Olivia strives to provide an all Lesbian environment but we have had MTF transgendered guests join us on our vacations. Although we do not discriminate, you will find that your presence is upsetting to some of our guests. Some will confront you directly asking "why are you on my Lesbian vacation?" I imagine it would be even harder for our guests to accept someone FTM.

I know this is discouraging, but it is important for you to understand because it disrupts the Olivia experience we work hard to provide for our guests. If you have any questions or need anything more please feel free to e-mail me at guestservices@olivia.com or call 800-631-6277, option 2.



Thank you,



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jeri Umble
sr. director, customer care


olivia
434 brannan street
san francisco ca 94107

415.962.5700 tel
415.962-5713 fax

feel free
www.olivia.com

Yes this is the backlash I mentioned Olivia had to deal with. It is restating the intent of the cruises and the targeted audience. And, that the guests expecting a certain experience might not appreciate the intent being turned into other than what they are expecting.

It is not an anti trans policy.

Is your intent to say wbw and wbw who are lesbians do not have the right to their own space, to define their own space, to set boundaries? Are you saying wbw/lesbians are unable or lack the capability to know what they need/want? Are you saying it is the right of others to impose their will/needs on women or to define what women should want/need?

[Femmadian]

Sooooo... I may end up regretting this but... here. Can we have a separate space about, er, separate space?

We can have our cake and critique it, too, yes?