Legalization of drugs, pros and cons!

[Nat]

I think pot functions for many people as an anti-anxiety and anti-depressant med (that works better in many cases than anti-anxiety and anti-depressant meds). I would say maybe a third of the people I know (hey, I'm from Austin) are regular smokers, and most of them are pretty high-functioning (no pun intended) - even the wake-n-bakers. I knew a physics major at UT (which has a very difficult physics program) who made straight A's while smoking pot on a daily basis. I know another person who struggles with anorexia, and pot's the only thing that allows him to eat. Another friend of mine has fibromyalgia, and pot is one of the only things that helps her handle the pain. It probably helps many many people in this country endure dead-end miserable jobs. For some people, pot really is the only or best-working medicine available for them.

I may have figured out (a couple years ago) that it's not for me, but my experience with others is that most people who do use pot are more accepting, more understanding, warmer, calmer, less judgmental and more able to deal than people who don't - and that's something I can appreciate.

I think people's reactions to it vary, but there are many people you meet a day who are on mind- and mood-altering drugs. Some are legal and some aren't. Legal anti-depressant and anti-anxiety drugs are just one category of drugs that affect all sorts of brain function and are still perfectly legal. .

[Martina]

My problem is that rich folks do not get busted for drugs although they use them all the time. Criminalization of drugs puts poor people in jail. That has huge social consequences. Occasionally some well off person will accidentally get caught holding and get arrested, but poor people get arrested all the time for having drugs on them. That means time in jail and fewer opportunities for work in the future.

i am an addict. i believe that it is genetic. i think that environment plays a part. i have also seen lots and lots of people benefit in a hundred ways from twelve step. i don't think 12-step is the only way, but i have seen it work.

Re drug use itself, i don't find it charming or appealing. i guess that's because i grew up with an alcoholic mother. Countries that have decriminalized still have problems, i agree. BUT they are not contributing to the class polarization of their society by incarcerating the poor over and again, helping to fuck them up and make them less employable. For god's sake, how stupid is that?

[Apocalipstic]

I will not , not have I ever worked for a place which drugs tests. I find it incredibly invasive.

The state makes us drug test our truck drivers to get their licenses, so I no longer drive the big trucks...I am getting too old and mostly have too much to do otherwise now anyway. I just liked to drive then because it was fun.

But giving urine or blood samples to get a job? Not for me.

[Jess]

When I was drug tested for work, there was an initial test upon hiring and then random testing with names being generated by a computer. Sort of like a lottery.

The test was non-invasive using a cotton swab type thing that you kept in your mouth for three or so minutes and was then shipped off to be tested for whatever agent they were looking for.

Did I need a drug test to run a meat department? I doubt it. Even though I worked with knives and a bandsaw, which would probably put me in a higher liability bracket for insurance purposes, I doubt a cashier would face the same liability, however, they are directly handling money and customers and could potentially affect business. Still... not all that great a reason to be tested.

Surgeons, train conductors, pilots.. em.. yeah, I kinda want to know they are without hallucinogenics in their system. Folks with guns ( cops/ soldiers) again.. test their ass.

Can I decide who should get tested and who not? Nope. Because there will always be someone saying, well if I have to then joe blow has to. I think part of it is for insurance purposes and part is just plain old safety.

I don't really care if the kid who works for us sometimes gets high. I do care when he gets high before coming over and wastes four hours doing something that would otherwise take him a half hour. I do also care when he smashes a finger or cuts himself or lets my dog wander off because of carelessness that accompanies the "high".

I guess I may not be getting a good grip on how a lot of folks see legalization. Are you saying make it legal in the "over 21 OTC sales" sort of way, or in the "go to doctor and get a script sort of way? Like, you can go pick up a dime of meth( not sure if meth is in dimes or what, sorry) or a rock of crack at Walmarts drug section when you pick up your tylenol, milk and big screen tv?

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Snip...
I think drug testing for employment is bullshit. I don't care if the clerk at the local grocery store is stoned or not.......who gives a shit as long as they can pass the product across the bar code machine. Drug testing that finds THC present says nothing about my ability to function at the time I pissed in the cup. It just says I smoked pot sometime in the last 2-3 days or month or was in a room full of folks smoking the night before. General employment drug screens only say positive or negative. You can test positive for pot for years after you last smoked some........THC is fat soluble (is stored in fat) chemical and if you start losing weight you can test positive even if you haven't smoked pot for months.

Anyone with half a brain can figure out the half-life of the their prescribed or illegal drug of choice..........it's all out there on the net. Pre-emploment drug testing is kind of like you have to take off your shoes and are limited to only 3 oz containers of liquids and toothpaste and they must be in a quart baggie ....and then there was you can have up to 3 books of matches but NO lighters.........ignorant bullshit that gives you a false sense of security. And if you have a prescription then it's all good.

I think that there are certain jobs that MUST require drug testing. I am not a fan of any invasive procedures, but I also work for the aviation industry and I can tell you firsthand that not only do I not want the flight crew on ANY drug, I don't want any of the ground personnel, mechanics or anyone remotely involved with the aircraft or flight on them, prescribed or illegal.

Yesterday I was so affected by a report that I read on an airline mechanic that died while at work. I am not saying drugs were involved, but it clearly shows how any lapse in judgmental/concentration can have devastating effects.

Originally Posted by Nat

I have mixed feelings. I think most drugs should be legal, but I would hesitate at really damaging drugs like meth and coke and heroine, etc. Drugs where the minute you get addicted, you may very easily do permanent damage to your health and brain.

Still, I'd rather see people placed in treatment than in prison.

I do not think that drug use is a victimless crime - when it comes to serious drugs. When a person is seriously addicted to something that keeps them from living, wanting to live, thinking relatively clearly, working, parenting, etc., I really feel like that's a crime that affects everybody in that person's life and also people that person doesn't even know - like those who end up paying the hospital bills. At the same time, most of that can be said of alcohol too, and that idea puts me right back on the fence.

I guess I'd go for legalizing the safer drugs and decriminalizing the rest. If use of some drug leads to driving while intoxicated or the commission of other crimes either due to lack of judgment or a need to feed the addiction with cash, then those crimes should most definitely be punished.

I agree with you, I also have mixed feelings. And I am totally against criminalizing it like it is now. It is business, just like jailing illegal/legal immigrants is.

Originally Posted by Gemme

Who gives a shit? Well, if...for example...it's a police officer and his actions or the speed (or lack thereof, depending on what he's high on) of his actions causes me to get hurt, then fuck yeah, I give a shit.

Snipped...

I can kind of see your line of thinking here, but I'm looking at the big picture. I don't think we'd be able to have one and not the other. Testing is non-negotiable to me.

I give a shit too.

Originally Posted by wolfwalker

this is strictly my thoughts on the subject.

the netherlands have long ago given up on doing the drug battle. figuring out that they can not stop people from doing drugs if they so desire. you can sit in a cafe and order a joint of weed as an after dinner treat. you can also buy at shops as in california.

it is interesting to note that they dont have large issues with a lot of other drugs. they do have some problems with addicts but they treat their addicts as humans with problems, not bait for a long jail term. they give their addicts their drugs and clean equipment to use them.they also offer treatment to anyone wanting treatment, not a jail sentence. reason? so they dont go killing, maiming and stealing from people and causing huge grief. this also lowers the aids transmission.

there is a percentage of people destine to be addicts, no way around it.these people are humans and the cost of treatment is much lower then throwing people in jail. they feel that it is the christian thing to do and i agree with their train of thought.

what I do or someone else does in the privacy of their home is not the concern of the law. if i drive down the road and I am high , then the law has a right to do something then, just as they do if i am drunk.

we have laws in place to protect the safety of others. use them to control just as we do with alcohol.

there is a very high percentage of people walking around everyday taking prescibed or over the counter drugs which can be just as dangerous as many non legal drugs. little is done about that other then a warning on the label.

more violence is done in the name of illegal then there would be if they were legal. just look at the border issues and the deaths involved in the illegal trade. people getting tainted drugs and dying etc.

legalize it, regulate it and spend some money on drug treatment.

wolf

I think you bring a very important point to this conversation when you talk about the dangers of prescribed drugs. This is something that needs to be looked at also.

Originally Posted by Nat

I think pot functions for many people as an anti-anxiety and anti-depressant med (that works better in many cases than anti-anxiety and anti-depressant meds). I would say maybe a third of the people I know (hey, I'm from Austin) are regular smokers, and most of them are pretty high-functioning (no pun intended) - even the wake-n-bakers. I knew a physics major at UT (which has a very difficult physics program) who made straight A's while smoking pot on a daily basis. I know another person who struggles with anorexia, and pot's the only thing that allows him to eat. Another friend of mine has fibromyalgia, and pot is one of the only things that helps her handle the pain. It probably helps many many people in this country endure dead-end miserable jobs. For some people, pot really is the only or best-working medicine available for them.

I may have figured out (a couple years ago) that it's not for me, but my experience with others is that most people who do use pot are more accepting, more understanding, warmer, calmer, less judgmental and more able to deal than people who don't - and that's something I can appreciate.

I think people's reactions to it vary, but there are many people you meet a day who are on mind- and mood-altering drugs. Some are legal and some aren't. Legal anti-depressant and anti-anxiety drugs are just one category of drugs that affect all sorts of brain function and are still perfectly legal. .

I think it is great to take them as anti-anxiety drugs, as long as you don't take either prescribed or illegal ones during the course of your job, more so if your job requires that you handle people's lives. If you need them to perform any of those jobs then you need to change careers, this is of course my personal opinion.

I know all about Austin being laid back and all, and I can totally get behind students at UT or other Universities doing this, as long as they are not involved in any medical research, safety research, etc.

Originally Posted by Martina

My problem is that rich folks do not get busted for drugs although they use them all the time. Criminalization of drugs puts poor people in jail. That has huge social consequences. Occasionally some well off person will accidentally get caught holding and get arrested, but poor people get arrested all the time for having drugs on them. That means time in jail and fewer opportunities for work in the future.

i am an addict. i believe that it is genetic. i think that environment plays a part. i have also seen lots and lots of people benefit in a hundred ways from twelve step. i don't think 12-step is the only way, but i have seen it work.

Re drug use itself, i don't find it charming or appealing. i guess that's because i grew up with an alcoholic mother. Countries that have decriminalized still have problems, i agree. BUT they are not contributing to the class polarization of their society by incarcerating the poor over and again, helping to fuck them up and make them less employable. For god's sake, how stupid is that?

You are so right, like in most cases, minorities are the ones who get incarcerated and punish for this. We need to provide counseling and rehab, not jail beds.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I will not , not have I ever worked for a place which drugs tests. I find it incredibly invasive.

The state makes us drug test our truck drivers to get their licenses, so I no longer drive the big trucks...I am getting too old and mostly have too much to do otherwise now anyway. I just liked to drive then because it was fun.

But giving urine or blood samples to get a job? Not for me.

I totally get it, I wouldn't want to have to go through one. I have had to take them in the past for pre-employment screening, and that did not make any sense. My job did not warrant such a test. I believe that it was done for insurance purposed like Jess mentioned, and that irritates me. I understand the premise and logic behind it, but it irritates me nonetheless.

I think there are legitimate reasons to have one done, as I mentioned in a previous post.

I also think that like you, Apocalisptic, we get to choose if we want to go through that or not.

Originally Posted by Jess

When I was drug tested for work, there was an initial test upon hiring and then random testing with names being generated by a computer. Sort of like a lottery.

The test was non-invasive using a cotton swab type thing that you kept in your mouth for three or so minutes and was then shipped off to be tested for whatever agent they were looking for.

Did I need a drug test to run a meat department? I doubt it. Even though I worked with knives and a bandsaw, which would probably put me in a higher liability bracket for insurance purposes, I doubt a cashier would face the same liability, however, they are directly handling money and customers and could potentially affect business. Still... not all that great a reason to be tested.

Surgeons, train conductors, pilots.. em.. yeah, I kinda want to know they are without hallucinogenics in their system. Folks with guns ( cops/ soldiers) again.. test their ass.

Can I decide who should get tested and who not? Nope. Because there will always be someone saying, well if I have to then joe blow has to. I think part of it is for insurance purposes and part is just plain old safety.

I don't really care if the kid who works for us sometimes gets high. I do care when he gets high before coming over and wastes four hours doing something that would otherwise take him a half hour. I do also care when he smashes a finger or cuts himself or lets my dog wander off because of carelessness that accompanies the "high".

I guess I may not be getting a good grip on how a lot of folks see legalization. Are you saying make it legal in the "over 21 OTC sales" sort of way, or in the "go to doctor and get a script sort of way? Like, you can go pick up a dime of meth( not sure if meth is in dimes or what, sorry) or a rock of crack at Walmarts drug section when you pick up your tylenol, milk and big screen tv?

Jess, I agree with most of what you said here.

And as far as your last paragraph, I think that although we have spoken about legalization, no one has clearly stated how that would work, so I understand you not getting it a grip on that yet. We have all kind of tossed ideas/opinions around. You bring up a very good point.

That would be a very good topic to focus on, how do we see this legalization if it were to happen?

[Apocalipstic]

Let me be more clear.

I do not think one should go to work impaired, but I do not think what one does in one's off time is anyone's business.

There has to be a line, and for me testing what I do after hours or on vacation is not OK.

We have the right to privacy.

Invasive for me is a test at all, not how it is administered.

ps. also, some of the stereotypes of how smoking pot affects people are just not true.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by wolfwalker

this is strictly my thoughts on the subject.

the netherlands have long ago given up on doing the drug battle. figuring out that they can not stop people from doing drugs if they so desire. you can sit in a cafe and order a joint of weed as an after dinner treat. you can also buy at shops as in california.

it is interesting to note that they dont have large issues with a lot of other drugs. they do have some problems with addicts but they treat their addicts as humans with problems, not bait for a long jail term. they give their addicts their drugs and clean equipment to use them.they also offer treatment to anyone wanting treatment, not a jail sentence. reason? so they dont go killing, maiming and stealing from people and causing huge grief. this also lowers the aids transmission.

there is a percentage of people destine to be addicts, no way around it.these people are humans and the cost of treatment is much lower then throwing people in jail. they feel that it is the christian thing to do and i agree with their train of thought.

what I do or someone else does in the privacy of their home is not the concern of the law. if i drive down the road and I am high , then the law has a right to do something then, just as they do if i am drunk.

we have laws in place to protect the safety of others. use them to control just as we do with alcohol.

there is a very high percentage of people walking around everyday taking prescibed or over the counter drugs which can be just as dangerous as many non legal drugs. little is done about that other then a warning on the label.

more violence is done in the name of illegal then there would be if they were legal. just look at the border issues and the deaths involved in the illegal trade. people getting tainted drugs and dying etc.

legalize it, regulate it and spend some money on drug treatment.

wolf

You have some good points, but Europe and other countries have been treating their people better for eons now. Think of how members of our community are treated there versus here. What works for them won't work for us until WE change, not just our policies.

Originally Posted by Nat

I think pot functions for many people as an anti-anxiety and anti-depressant med (that works better in many cases than anti-anxiety and anti-depressant meds). I would say maybe a third of the people I know (hey, I'm from Austin) are regular smokers, and most of them are pretty high-functioning (no pun intended) - even the wake-n-bakers. I knew a physics major at UT (which has a very difficult physics program) who made straight A's while smoking pot on a daily basis. I know another person who struggles with anorexia, and pot's the only thing that allows him to eat. Another friend of mine has fibromyalgia, and pot is one of the only things that helps her handle the pain. It probably helps many many people in this country endure dead-end miserable jobs. For some people, pot really is the only or best-working medicine available for them.

I may have figured out (a couple years ago) that it's not for me, but my experience with others is that most people who do use pot are more accepting, more understanding, warmer, calmer, less judgmental and more able to deal than people who don't - and that's something I can appreciate.

I think people's reactions to it vary, but there are many people you meet a day who are on mind- and mood-altering drugs. Some are legal and some aren't. Legal anti-depressant and anti-anxiety drugs are just one category of drugs that affect all sorts of brain function and are still perfectly legal. .

I agree that not all folks who smoke pot are dopes, lazy, etc. It's been my personal experience that most of those that I have come into contact with, and knew they were smokers, did fit many if not all of the stereotypes of pot smokers. I'm sure that I've come into contact with hundreds of thousands of people throughout my professional career that did smoke or do harder drugs and didn't know it. But since I don't know it, or them, my personal reference is skewed towards those I do know.

On a side note, there was a blurb on the news last night about a mother giving her 9 year old son pot. Apparently, it helps him cope with the anxiety and pain of being autistic. I'm all for medicinal use. It's the recreational use I have a difficult time with but when you look at all the other things we do to medicate ourselves (overeating, prescription drug abuse, etc), I think pot is at the bottom of our list of concerns.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Let me be more clear.

I do not think one should go to work impaired, but I do not think what one does in one's off time is anyone's business.

There has to be a line, and for me testing what I do after hours or on vacation is not OK.

We have the right to privacy.

Invasive for me is a test at all, not how it is administered.

ps. also, some of the stereotypes of how smoking pot affects people are just not true.

I mentioned stereotypes above but you are right, it affects each person differently. I forget what movie it was but Woody Harrelson was in it and his character said that pot made him "try to take his pants off over his head".

*grin*

Although it's rare, I have seen folks become violent on it. A lot of people see stereotypes as a purely negative thing, but they exist simply because there are certain patterns of behavior that have been noticed with a particular type or person or whatnot. Stereotypes themselves are not bad. It's all in the usage and intent.

I agree that your time should be your own but your time off the clock ends the second before you clock in. Not everyone is going to use their common sense and say, "Hey, I go to work in an hour. I shouldn't have this drink." Or joint. Or pill. Or whatever. Because that shit doesn't exit your system immediately. It's in there for hours or days, depending on the substance.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Let me be more clear.

I do not think one should go to work impaired, but I do not think what one does in one's off time is anyone's business.

There has to be a line, and for me testing what I do after hours or on vacation is not OK.

We have the right to privacy.

Invasive for me is a test at all, not how it is administered.

ps. also, some of the stereotypes of how smoking pot affects people are just not true.

I agree. Some folks get "wasted" some just catch enough of a "high" to take the edge off. Like alcohol, tolerance and intent upon use varies.