Being female within Butch

[Cin]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I think I am most consciously aware of being female and woman in terms of women's issues, feminism, etc.- more from a political standpoint, since I feel my gender is butch. So unequal pay, sexism, etc.- those are my issues too.

I totally feel like this. I see myself as a woman and female and as someone who stands in solidarity with other women.

Half the world's population is at the mercy of the geographical birth lottery to determine what type of inequality they will experience in life, whether they will be subjected to being owned, tortured at the whim of men, forced to marry while still a child, not allowed an education or simply do more work for less money while the control of their bodies is being legislated away from them. What happens to all women diminishes me as a woman and as a human being. I must push against this always.

I am a woman in the biological sense for certain, but even more in the political sense and the personal will forever be the political in my eyes. So regardless of my female masculinity or my masculine look, I will always be standing on the female side of the male/female equation. Because of this I am ever and always aware that I am a woman and that all the things that happen to women could easily happen to me, as the old mantra of feminism taught me, we can all be battered and raped. So the understanding that I am a woman is always in the forefront of my mind.

That being said I am also aware that I am not your average woman. I don't do woman/female like society expects. I am a butch, a masculine female and that is all I can be, to be anything else would be a lie. And I'm happy with that. So in that sense I don't think of myself as being a women or as female.

I get that sounds contradictory but I am happy enough living a contradiction. I have no trouble holding two opposing ideas. So while I never think about myself as being a woman, I never forget that I am a woman and damn proud of it.

When I shop for clothes or personal care items, or really anything at all, I have the whole store to choose from, I have everything to choose from. I am not limited by anything but my taste. I buy men's clothes and I buy women's clothes. I buy what I like regardless of what department it is placed in. I guess more than not thinking about whether I am a woman or not, I just don't think about the sex/gender of inanimate objects. I buy what I want.

[BullDog]

MT, I find myself nodding with so many of your posts. Of all the ones I have read over the years, this one definitely resonates as much as any of them.

Yes, the political is deeply personal for me. I too believe that all things that happen to women could easily happen to me, and that is one of the main reasons why I stand in solidarity with other women, even if much of the woman/female experience feels foreign to me or something I have never experienced. Not to mention the fact that we live in a very sexist world that needs to be stood up against and changed.

In most ways I do feel "all guy." I feel I have strong masculine energy, appearance, outlook and interests. I do have body dysmorphia, especially in the chest area, so the female aspect is not clear cut for me. At the same time, I was not born a male and not socialized as one. I am more connected with other women on a social, political and historical level- and for me those aspects are deeply personal.

[Ascot]

I've been thinking a lot about this. For as long as I can remember, probably longer even, because my mother was also a feminist, I have been conscious of and concerned about women's issues; socioeconomic, political, reproductive even though that didn't apply to me, per se. I support women owned businesses, I factor in women's rights whenever I vote. I've never lost sight of the fact that I am a woman and the import and precariousness of that in our world.

In my initial post used I "woman" and "female" interchangeably, and that was probably a mistake or at least misleading. I understand how that might seem strange to some, because after all, aren't they ostensibly the same thing? For me that's not necessarily the case. Maybe it breaks down along sex/gender lines. I identify my gender as Butch and that is considerably rooted in masculinity, even within the parameters of my definition of it which includes the word "female". I sometimes refer to myself as a guy, "one of the guys" "a boys' night out", etc. I consider myself a bachelor and want eventually to be a husband. While I have no desire whatsoever to be male and I don't grapple with body dysmorphia, my presentation is decidedly masculine of center. I think that's why the occasional, out of the blue reminder of my femaleness can catch me unawares even as I continue to be involved with women's causes.

[TruTexan]

I see myself as just a butch and I'm lesbian. I partner only with lesbian femmes that want a female butch. I'm female, live like a female, worked in most of my employment years in male oriented jobs because I can and liked them, and I wear men's clothing. I see myself as "one of the boys" with guy friends and other butch friends. I don't see myself or identify as male by any means. Butch as a gender is new to me as is masculine of center.
I'm 51 so a lot of the new stuff is hard for me to understand at times, and I have no friends that see themselves that way in r/t.
I see sex as either male or female and often times in my head it's still interchangeable with gender roles. I guess its how I was brought up, or how I understand things, not sure.
I do know that Butch is a noun and an adjective to me. It describes who I am inside and out. I also support women and their struggles in life and equality as well as the right to do with their bodies as they deem fit.

[RockOn]

Thanks for the topic - interesting. I'm enjoying everyone's posts here.

I identify as butch, stone for specific.

I am nodding my head as in "yes" when I read the other butches posts.

My earliest memories reflect how much I have always hated female clothes.

When I was 3 years old, I heard my great grandmother and grandmother talking about the kind of lace they intended to put on this dress they were making for me. I went to the sewing machine. There lay the dress pattern, all cut out with straight pins holding the paper pattern to the cloth. I sneakily took it to the bathroom, and flushed it down the toilet. Of course they found it because it did not go down.

Another thing so sharp in my memory is Easter Sunday when I was 5 years old. My best friend, Benny, got to wear the cutest little male suit - he even had on a bowtie with it. All day, I was so angry at having to wear this dress and patent leather shoes with ... well, I could write paragraphs about these girlie socks I had to wear. They were so not me! White with turned down cuffs, the edges of the cuffs were wavy and had these tiny pink flowers on them.

All day, I was envious of Benny. Later in the day, I took two of his easter eggs, the boiled egg colored kind, and stomped them into the sidewalk with my little patent leather shoes. He never knew why I did that, just stood there and watched me do it. I hate it to this day that I was mean to him.

[Ascot]

The image of a little one trying to flush a pattern down the toilet is a funny one. While I didn't go that far, I seem to recall throwing a few pairs of tights out the window. They were definitely the bane of my existence for a couple of years.

For the most part I was pretty fortunate in that my parents acknowledged my tomboyishness even when it came to occasions that dictated dressier clothes. I still had to wear girl things, but not girly things.


Celtglen, do you think that's what it is, that kids understand gender now more than in decades past?

[randrum]

I hated dresses growing up. Actually, I still hate dresses but as an adult I can choose not to where them. As a kid, however, I didn't have that choice. I'd have a fit whenever my parents made me wear a dress. It got so bad that in 4th grade my parents enforced my own "dress code", or should I say my own personal hell.

Twice a week I had to wear a dress to school. It was terrible, or at least it was for me. I started packing basketball shorts in my backpack to wear under the dresses. And I'd come home with grass stains on them. Eventually my parents just sort of gave up.

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by RockOn

Thanks for the topic - interesting. I'm enjoying everyone's posts here.

I identify as butch, stone for specific.

I am nodding my head as in "yes" when I read the other butches posts.

My earliest memories reflect how much I have always hated female clothes.

When I was 3 years old, I heard my great grandmother and grandmother talking about the kind of lace they intended to put on this dress they were making for me. I went to the sewing machine. There lay the dress pattern, all cut out with straight pins holding the paper pattern to the cloth. I sneakily took it to the bathroom, and flushed it down the toilet. Of course they found it because it did not go down.

Another thing so sharp in my memory is Easter Sunday when I was 5 years old. My best friend, Benny, got to wear the cutest little male suit - he even had on a bowtie with it. All day, I was so angry at having to wear this dress and patent leather shoes with ... well, I could write paragraphs about these girlie socks I had to wear. They were so not me! White with turned down cuffs, the edges of the cuffs were wavy and had these tiny pink flowers on them.

All day, I was envious of Benny. Later in the day, I took two of his easter eggs, the boiled egg colored kind, and stomped them into the sidewalk with my little patent leather shoes. He never knew why I did that, just stood there and watched me do it. I hate it to this day that I was mean to him.

Those sound like wonderful sox, i'll wear them with camoflage pants, black t-shirt and olive drab hoodie. Can keep the dress and patent leathers though.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Ascot

In my initial post used I "woman" and "female" interchangeably, and that was probably a mistake or at least misleading. I understand how that might seem strange to some, because after all, aren't they ostensibly the same thing? For me that's not necessarily the case. Maybe it breaks down along sex/gender lines. I identify my gender as Butch and that is considerably rooted in masculinity, even within the parameters of my definition of it which includes the word "female". I sometimes refer to myself as a guy, "one of the guys" "a boys' night out", etc. I consider myself a bachelor and want eventually to be a husband. While I have no desire whatsoever to be male and I don't grapple with body dysmorphia, my presentation is decidedly masculine of center. I think that's why the occasional, out of the blue reminder of my femaleness can catch me unawares even as I continue to be involved with women's causes.

I have heard people identify with their sex but not with their gender in that they understand themselves as female but don't feel like a woman. They see themselves as one of the guys and talk about their butch brothers and such. I have also heard people who easily identify as female and as a woman albeit a masculine one. They don't embrace their masculinity as being necessarily male and don't see themselves as a dude. They are comfortable with being a woman and believe they just do woman differently and that's only because of society's rigid definition of how being a woman looks.

I guess I am a bit of a hybrid. I always identify with and am aware of my sex and gender. I am happy and proud to be a woman and to be female. I also don't mind being seen as one of the guys. I don't like male pronouns only because it feels erasing. I am a she and hanging on to my femininity has been a struggle for as long as I can remember. It always feels like people push you into choosing sides. Either you are male or you are female. If you present as masculine you need to turn in your female card at the door. I am a masculine woman but I'm not a guy. Yet I'm not uncomfortable being very masculine. It is who and how I am.

Ascot, you mention your presentation as decidedly masculine of center. I guess if center is a neutral presentation and one side is feminine and the other masculine then I too am decidedly masculine of center.

But I think it is difficult to tease masculinity away from male and femininity from female. I try to do it by identifying my masculinity as being female masculinity which I see as markedly different from the male variety. However society is not really capable of separating masculinity from male thus the hostility and hatred a masculine woman can experience from some people by just simply being. Often I'm initially seen as male but upon further examination something about me sounds an alarm, I don't know perhaps it's my breasts , but something gives me away as a usurper, a pretender. And that makes some people very angry. They act as though I am trying to fool them into believing I am a man, which is pretty much the last thing I am trying to do.

Yet I can't deny I do enjoy and identify with much of what is considered male. If I just simply walked like a guy for example I could put it down to an issue with my mobility. But it's much more than that. So for lack of a better word to explain myself I say masculine but i put the qualifier female in front to separate myself from man/male. But I do enjoy being one of the guys, somebody's butch brother and indulging in the occasional boy's night out. In that way it would be easy for me to say I see myself as female but I don't identity as being a woman...

...except of course I do. When I was younger how I would to try to explain these contradictions was to blame the confusion on society's definition of a woman. And I believed I could open up this definition to allow for me, I just had to keep pushing against the boundaries. I don't feel I need to open up the definition of what it means to be a woman to include me anymore. I believe it is both impossible and unnecessary because I am a woman. That is not open for debate, although you might think it could be to hear how society decides what my masculine appearance means. Regardless of what society thinks, I am a woman and I don't need to change or open the definition to include me. It already includes me and it always has. Which is why I have decided to stop acting like I need to change something about what it means to be a woman to allow for the likes of me. It already does allow for me since I AM indeed a woman. To behave as though something about woman needs to change for me to be one is just buying into society's gender insanity. What needs to change is society's gender insanity. And what I would need to do is change society's belief that woman does not include the likes of me. And that is a fool's game. I don't need permission to be a woman. I am a woman. So I will just reach out and take that definition thank you very much. I can't change the world by getting caught up in it's delusions.

I see it kind of like insisting I am a dancer to a group of dancers whose dance is defined by moving around gracefully in step with each other and in sync with the music, when my dance consists of my jumping all around while gesturing wildly and listening intently to music only I can hear. This group of dancers would feel justified in the belief that I am not a dancer. I would be hard pressed to convince them otherwise. This might not feel good to hear but the real tragedy would be if I let them convince me not to dance or if I spent my life trying to get them to see the merit in my dancing. Better that I just continue to move to the beat of my own drummer dancing in my own way and finding others who hear my music and joining with them in our own expression of what it means to be a dancer.

I have always looked masculine. It's in the way that I walk, talk, or interact with the world around me. I don't chose it, I certainly don't encourage it, neither do I discourage it. It just is. I haven't tried to pump it up or tone it down. I may have a bit of body dysmorphia although as I age i don't find it quite as distressing as it used to be. It's always been that what I see in the mirror does not reflect my idea of who I am. But I imagine a lot of people can say that for a variety of reasons. When I get all duded up and look in the mirror it is always a tad jarring. I'm like oh ya, breasts, damn what are they doing there, spoils the whole look. So perhaps in that way I am consistently surprised by being a woman. But I never forget I am a woman and female and damn happy to be so. I think the surprise comes when i am forced to confront how my idea of who and what a woman is differs greatly from what society has deemed a woman to be. Then I am confused and uncomfortable because that is not who I am.

I don't know it seems like the more words I use the less clear I am.

[Birch]

I guess I will give it a shot...

I guess what hits me like ascot was asking is when someone uses my real first name. I have had the same nickname forever...my pay stubs have it...bank stuff uses it and so on..
Every now and again I am shocked to hear the name.....via voice message or just something new in my life. In a waiting room and my name is called and the confusion and looks when I get up as THAT person.
The shock is not oh I am a woman...it's more...that's me?....in a general sense. It might just be seeing others reactions. That they are not aware of butches in general...which I completely don't get. Hopefully those moments open eyes and people in general are more aware.

I think every human is amazing in their own skin.

I also just wanted to mention something about the vitamins......
I found out a long time ago that I have very high testosterone levels...and because of this my doc told me to get men's vitamins and hair care ...hygiene products.

I hope this was on topic.

Birch

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Birch

I also just wanted to mention something about the vitamins......
I found out a long time ago that I have very high testosterone levels...and because of this my doc told me to get men's vitamins and hair care ...hygiene products.

I hope this was on topic.

Birch

I think this is good to highlight. A lot of butches will buy all male products when it isn't the right choice for their bodies, especially vitamins, which will not meet their body's needs.

Until I went on testosterone (very recently), I always bought "women's shampoo". Women's shampoos are created for cleaning hair that is grown from an estrogen based hormone system. It has nothing to do with one's sex/gender identity.

If people are uncomfortable buying body products whose ingredients are influenced by the person's sex (which not all "womens" and "mens" products are), they should consider buying unisex products. My body lotion, for example, has been "for all bodies". My face lotion has always been a "woman's" face lotion (not that I have always been good about using it!).

I know I am continuing something that may be a bit off topic, but I have never seen this discussed on BFP and I think it is important for people to know/note.

[Ascot]

I only have a minute right now, but I want to express my appreciation for how this thread is going. There has been wonderful input and insight and no one's been contentious. Regarding what some might consider veering off topic, what's a little tangentiality between friends? Viva la evolution.

[ProfPacker]

it always amazes that you get what you need when you need it. Miss Tick spoke of many of my feelings. However as many know I have discovered and allowed my more masculine side to emerge and yet still feel like a female and a woman. I do feel the woman part reciding as I feel more butch but I like to embrace all parts of myself. I do feel that at times I love how I have evolved as butch in dress and demeanor and feeling. The world sees me as a woman and my kids see me as a woman although I feel more female than woman.

However, there are times that I feel between two worlds. The world that knew me before my change in my sense of self and the world that knows me as I change.

I have to admit and this is hard that when I am id'd as I have been as someone's bf I am both excited by it and confused by it and my feeling. It is about gender not sex. I don't know where this is going but this thread is very good for me.

[Ascot]

It certainly wasn't my intent to let this thread languish. Darn that pesky thing called life getting in the way!

It's funny how things go. The other day I was shopping and as I was perusing the shampoo (I change it up fairly regularly) this thread crossed my mind. Prior to starting it, I'd never once given any thought to whether what I washed my hair with was created for someone with an estrogen based physiology. I've most often made my choice based on the fragrance of it. I appreciated that I'd been given that food for thought.

What I've most been thinking about is the masculinity vs. male idea;lately I've been taking a much closer look at it. As someone said, Miss Tick I think, it can be quite difficult sifting one from the other. Societally. there is most often little if any difference between the constructs. I will readily admit that within my ideal butch/femme framework, there are elements of the heteronormative paradigm that appeal to me greatly. A large part of that appeal is the perversion of it that exists because there are two women in the dynamic; me, the masculine half who adores and revels in the glorious femininity of the other half even as she is enamored of and excited by my masculinity. It may well happen that some of our responsibilities break down along stereotypical gender lines and I love that, when I have one, my partner appreciates that I'm still very much female. There are particular contexts in which I find being called Sir incredibly erotic. (The grocery store is not one of them) I wear men's clothes, I take up space, I am unapologetic about my assertive energy. To many who don't know any better, I'm sure these traits and many more would have them thinking I'm "the man" in the relationship. Sometimes I want to rail against such ignorance, but the fact is, most of the time I'm fine with it. I get off on it and play with it on occasion. I don't care what it looks like to anyone from the outside. Still, I've not once ever harbored a desire to truly be male. I enjoy straddling that line, twisting it, blurring it, but I don't ever wish to be completely on the other side of it. As far as I'm concerned, being Butch is the best of all possible worlds for me. I get to be as masculine as suits me without having to pick up some of the baggage that this world can put on men. I also don't feel as though I'm missing out on anything because I'm not granted whatever perceived benefits come with "male privilege".